survival tools

[VanIsleMan]

I love how fire making materials are now much more realistic, and the next logical step for me would be to be able to make hand and bow drills, fire ploughs, firepistons, possibly even to search for flintrock. This would not only be useful in firemaking but tools as well, different types of knives for different uses and extend the possible survival time even more. I would also like to have atlatl added to the workbench list, this is a reasonable thing to make for hunting when you don't/can't get any gut to make a bow and have no rifle.

[ctstannard]

I am not entirely sure if the game needs more ways to make fire. First off using anything like a bow or hand drill in a cold, wet, snowy, windy environment would be very difficult but more importantly I like the idea of resources being finite. As it is on a good playthrough you can already survive for quite a long time is there really a need to lengthen it? Plus all good adventures come to an "end" and I think a fitting end for the sandbox mode is that once you've pillaged all the areas for their resources and survived a good length of time that you slowly fade into the long dark so to speak.

[danicusrex]

I'd like a "happy ending" where you can just choose "and he continued on like that, until the end of his days".

[Foxen]

I'd like a "happy ending" where you can just choose "and he continued on like that, until the end of his days".

+1!

[ctstannard]

I'd like a "happy ending" where you can just choose "and he continued on like that, until the end of his days".

I could see that on something more story driven but given the grim nature of the Long Dark's sandbox I think that would be a pretty weak way to finish a run.

[AmericanSteel]

I am all for more ways to make fire. I think being able to make friction fire and/or flint & steel are the natural progression. Just like the player starts with man made clothing and moves to crafted clothing as supplies run thin.

Cut down on the amount of matches that spawn by at least 75%. However, they should not decay near as fast as they do now. I also think if a player wanted to split a cardboard match, so a smaller flame so a lower chance to start a fire, then it should be doable.

Survival is about choice, even if you don't feel like you have any good ones. Give us some choices and let the players decide.

[VanIsleMan]

I am not entirely sure if the game needs more ways to make fire. First off using anything like a bow or hand drill in a cold, wet, snowy, windy environment would be very difficult but more importantly I like the idea of resources being finite. As it is on a good playthrough you can already survive for quite a long time is there really a need to lengthen it? Plus all good adventures come to an "end" and I think a fitting end for the sandbox mode is that once you've pillaged all the areas for their resources and survived a good length of time that you slowly fade into the long dark so to speak.

All your points are good, but I have to say our gaming job here is to avoid the long dark. I also believe that difficulty is the point, in a world where all electricity driven machines are useless, we must rediscover the old ways that carried man forward for thousands of years before electricity; this is what makes the game so fresh and appealing to me as a gamer. It is the classic tale of man vs nature. As far as lengthening the game, yes yes yes we need to lengthen it, that is the point and why there are badges for surviving for long periods, we do it because it is very hard but we can.

[VanIsleMan]

I forgot to add that resources would still be finite, but it is up to us to be bold enough and resourceful enough to find and utilize resources.

[danicusrex]

I'd like a "happy ending" where you can just choose "and he continued on like that, until the end of his days".

I could see that on something more story driven but given the grim nature of the Long Dark's sandbox I think that would be a pretty weak way to finish a run.

My character is doing very well for himself right now, and given that winter must eventually give way to spring (in the real world, i know the game wont actually allow that, even if you survive for a year), I honestly think he could do the survival thing forever at this point. And maybe, just maybe, that's what he chooses.

[AmericanSteel]

I'd like a "happy ending" where you can just choose "and he continued on like that, until the end of his days".

I could see that on something more story driven but given the grim nature of the Long Dark's sandbox I think that would be a pretty weak way to finish a run.

My character is doing very well for himself right now, and given that winter must eventually give way to spring (in the real world, i know the game wont actually allow that, even if you survive for a year), I honestly think he could do the survival thing forever at this point. And maybe, just maybe, that's what he chooses.

I see the Sandbox game as more of a winter apocalypse. There is no joy as long as there is no thaw. The only hope we have is to eek out another day.

[ctstannard]

I'd like a "happy ending" where you can just choose "and he continued on like that, until the end of his days".

I could see that on something more story driven but given the grim nature of the Long Dark's sandbox I think that would be a pretty weak way to finish a run.

My character is doing very well for himself right now, and given that winter must eventually give way to spring (in the real world, i know the game wont actually allow that, even if you survive for a year), I honestly think he could do the survival thing forever at this point. And maybe, just maybe, that's what he chooses.

But that's just it... You can't survive "forever" it doesn't work that way. That is what I personally find so thrilling about this game. Death is coming one way or another-- sure you can stave it off for at time but never forever.

[danicusrex]

Hiroo Onoda lived in the hills for 29 years after World War II, thinking the war had not ended.

Christopher Knight lived 28 years alone in the Maine woods.

The Lykov family lived 40 years isolated in the Taiga.

I'd call that close enough to "forever" to allow the option of a happy ending where a contented woodsman simply continues living that way because he wants to.

[ctstannard]

Hiroo Onoda lived in the hills for 29 years after World War II, thinking the war had not ended.

Christopher Knight lived 28 years alone in the Maine woods.

The Lykov family lived 40 years isolated in the Taiga.

I'd call that close enough to "forever" to allow the option of a happy ending where a contented woodsman simply continues living that way because he wants to.

But did they really live forever or did their story eventually come to an end? Happily ever after stories are best left to Disney but I suppose some just aren't satisfied unless there is a happy scripted ending. You've not convinced me that such an ending is needed and thus I still feel "fading into the long dark" is a perfectly satisfying ending for the sandbox mode and I hope Hinterland never changes it.

[Boston123]

My personal opinion is : the whole point of wilderness survival training is to SURVIVE. If a "survival game" (what else could TLD be, really?) says that you HAVE to die, to fit the story, is it really a "survival" game? I say no.

I didn't train myself out in the woods, nor passed my skills onto Scouts, for a "satisfying story". I did it so, if I / they get into trouble, they can, at the very least, not freak out as they wait for rescue. At the best, they could rescue themselves.

I feel the same way about TLD. I want to be able to survive as long as possible, by any means possible. Making knives and arrowheads from broken glass, fires using bow drills, etc. Dying because I ran out of a highly-specific resource (namely, scrap metal), and the game deciding that I can't use ANYTHING ELSE is, to me, highly unsatisfying.

A great portion of survival training, after learning how to master fear (by mastering skills, like firebuilding and shelterbuilding, etc) , is how to think "outside the box". "What can I do, what can I use, to survive?" Not "throwing your hands in the air because you ran out of scrap metal, and can't get any more from the highly visible sources in the background".

etc, etc etc

[danicusrex]

My personal opinion is : the whole point of wilderness survival training is to SURVIVE. If a "survival game" (what else could TLD be, really?) says that you HAVE to die, to fit the story, is it really a "survival" game? I say no.

I didn't train myself out in the woods, nor passed my skills onto Scouts, for a "satisfying story". I did it so, if I / they get into trouble, they can, at the very least, not freak out as they wait for rescue. At the best, they could rescue themselves.

I feel the same way about TLD. I want to be able to survive as long as possible, by any means possible. Making knives and arrowheads from broken glass, fires using bow drills, etc. Dying because I ran out of a highly-specific resource (namely, scrap metal), and the game deciding that I can't use ANYTHING ELSE is, to me, highly unsatisfying.

A great portion of survival training, after learning how to master fear (by mastering skills, like firebuilding and shelterbuilding, etc) , is how to think "outside the box". "What can I do, what can I use, to survive?" Not "throwing your hands in the air because you ran out of scrap metal, and can't get any more from the highly visible sources in the background".

etc, etc etc

That's what I mean! There comes a point where you know the land, you know your own limits, and you know how to improvise. There's no reason you can't go on indefinitely in this scenario, except for artificially imposed scarcity.

As someone who occasionally goes and lives like this for fun, I can understand a mindset where the protagonist would just decide to continue his new life in the wild indefinitely. Less a feeling of grim survival... more being content to live off the land.

[ctstannard]

That's what I mean! There comes a point where you know the land, you know your own limits, and you know how to improvise. There's no reason you can't go on indefinitely in this scenario, except for artificially imposed scarcity.

As someone who occasionally goes and lives like this for fun, I can understand a mindset where the protagonist would just decide to continue his new life in the wild indefinitely. Less a feeling of grim survival... more being content to live off the land.

I hope Hinterland doesn't do this as there are far too many survival games already where that is all you do-- get to a steady state and live on forever. It is nice to have the harsh freezing environment of the North sooner or later winning out. It is much harder to survive indefinitely when you are stuck in a "winter apocalypse" as AmericanSteel put it.

[danicusrex]

http://horizon-magazine.eu/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/Ice%20age%20humans.jpg

These people would disagree with you.

[ctstannard]

Sorry accidentally quoted when I meant to edit.

[ctstannard]

Sorry accidentally quoted when I meant to edit.

[ctstannard]

http://horizon-magazine.eu/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/Ice%20age%20humans.jpg

These people would disagree with you.

We aren't those same humans anymore that is the entire point. What a lone person suddenly dropped into this harsh, unforgiving environment can do should not be the same as what a small society that has been adapting to that same environment over generations can do. if you want to play Ice Age Simulator go develop it... Frankly I don't really care anymore, you're too determined to get your Disney happy ending to listen to anything that has been said and you aren't about to change my mind that your typical survivor is guaranteed to survive forever in one of the harshest environments on the planet. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time on this.

[Boston123]

http://horizon-magazine.eu/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/Ice%20age%20humans.jpg

These people would disagree with you.

We aren't those same humans anymore that is the entire point. What a lone person suddenly dropped into this harsh, unforgiving environment can do should not be the same as what a small society that has been adapting to that same environment over generations can do. if you want to play Ice Age Simulator go develop it... Frankly I don't really care anymore, you're too determined to get your Disney happy ending to listen to anything that has been said and you aren't about to change my mind that your typical survivor is guaranteed to survive forever in one of the harshest environments on the planet. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time on this.

.....

Yes, we totally are the "same humans" as the people in the above picture. Humanity has remained unchanged for the last 200,00 years. The people you would find living during an Ice Age? You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and a person roaming around in a city today. Literally the "same" people. Hell, we even have the same metabolic requirements as Ice-Age hunter-gatherers, which is one reason why there is such a huge obesity problem in 1st World countries.

Oh, and modern people totally survive indefinitely (at least, for as long as people survive normally) in northern wildernesses. Look up Bob Swerer.

It isn't about "Disney Happy endings", it is a about "realism". What ever happened to "what will you do to survive"? Not "What will you do when you die because we said so?"

[AmericanSteel]

http://horizon-magazine.eu/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/field/image/Ice%20age%20humans.jpg

These people would disagree with you.

We aren't those same humans anymore that is the entire point. What a lone person suddenly dropped into this harsh, unforgiving environment can do should not be the same as what a small society that has been adapting to that same environment over generations can do. if you want to play Ice Age Simulator go develop it... Frankly I don't really care anymore, you're too determined to get your Disney happy ending to listen to anything that has been said and you aren't about to change my mind that your typical survivor is guaranteed to survive forever in one of the harshest environments on the planet. I don't intend to waste anymore of my time on this.

.....

Yes, we totally are the "same humans" as the people in the above picture. Humanity has remained unchanged for the last 200,00 years. The people you would find living during an Ice Age? You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them and a person roaming around in a city today. Literally the "same" people. Hell, we even have the same metabolic requirements as Ice-Age hunter-gatherers, which is one reason why there is such a huge obesity problem in 1st World countries.

Oh, and modern people totally survive indefinitely (at least, for as long as people survive normally) in northern wildernesses. Look up Bob Swerer.

It isn't about "Disney Happy endings", it is a about "realism". What ever happened to "what will you do to survive"? Not "What will you do when you die because we said so?"

The only issue with the comparison is the people above were born, raised, bred and died in this environment. Hunting, trapping, fishing, knapping, skinning, fire building... I dare say most "modern" people have no clue of what to do if they were caught in a tragic situation. Rescuers are constantly astonished when 5 to 10% of a population group walk away from a tragic event, where the other 90 odd percent are dead. Exposure and dehydration are the big killers with lack of food and trauma running up close behind.

Take a random group of 100 city folks, drop them out in the wilds and I dare say 50 of them would be dead in two weeks, with another 40 dead before the month was out. Most just don't have the experience, training or drive to continue. I recalled from SERE school it was preached 25% of survivors will die simply because they will refuse to eat available foodstuffs because their have a disdain for them. The instructors then brought out a trash can that had been sitting in the sun for a week dumped out the contents. The pointed out all of the food rubbish was inedible... but you could eat the maggots! The lesson was meant to open your eyes and it sure did for me. Bugs, worms, snakes, frogs, lizards... people will starve to death because they simply don't see them as an edible food source. Another 10% will die because they will eat food that is poisonous/harmful. "I swear these are chanterelle mushrooms, I saw them on Food Network once"!!! We have not even gotten into dysentery which has killed more people than small pox and the plague combined. AND is the number one killer in third world counties today. People not familiar with "Wild Water" assume that if comes from a mountain stream it most be ok to drink. What is brackish water? Do you know what is upstream? Standing water must be ok? The list of ignorance goes on and on and on. Before I joined the Army, I dare say I was one of those uneducated people.

I am not saying there is going to be a happily ever after. Something is going to kill the player, eventually. Just like something has my number and will get me... eventually. That does not mean there could not be months, years perhaps even decades before death comes a calling.

[ctstannard]

The only issue with the comparison is the people above were born, raised, bred and died in this environment. Hunting, trapping, fishing, knapping, skinning, fire building... I dare say most "modern" people have no clue of what to do if they were caught in a tragic situation. Rescuers are constantly astonished when 5 to 10% of a population group walk away from a tragic event, where the other 90 odd percent are dead. Exposure and dehydration are the big killers with lack of food and trauma running up close behind.

Take a random group of 100 city folks, drop them out in the wilds and I dare say 50 of them would be dead in two weeks, with another 40 dead before the month was out. Most just don't have the experience, training or drive to continue. I recalled from SERE school it was preached 25% of survivors will die simply because they will refuse to eat available foodstuffs because their have a disdain for them. The instructors then brought out a trash can that had been sitting in the sun for a week dumped out the contents. The pointed out all of the food rubbish was inedible... but you could eat the maggots! The lesson was meant to open your eyes and it sure did for me. Bugs, worms, snakes, frogs, lizards... people will starve to death because they simply don't see them as an edible food source. Another 10% will die because they will eat food that is poisonous/harmful. "I swear these are chanterelle mushrooms, I saw them on Food Network once"!!! We have not even gotten into dysentery which has killed more people than small pox and the plague combined. AND is the number one killer in third world counties today. People not familiar with "Wild Water" assume that if comes from a mountain stream it most be ok to drink. What is brackish water? Do you know what is upstream? Standing water must be ok? The list of ignorance goes on and on and on. Before I joined the Army, I dare say I was one of those uneducated people.

I am not saying there is going to be a happily ever after. Something is going to kill the player, eventually. Just like something has my number and will get me... eventually. That does not mean there could not be months, years perhaps even decades before death comes a calling.

Thank you this is exactly what I mean! Yes genetically speaking we are "the same" but like AmericanSteel said if you take an "average sample" of your population and put them into an incredibly harsh environment then there are no "guarantees" and certainly no "forevers". Now are we going to assume that our downed pilot happens to be a survivor superman with an abundant amount of all of these skills or another fairly average person caught in a terrible situation? At that point it becomes what will you do to see how long you can go. I am all for the idea of being able to survive in the game for months or years but I feel that it should be finite and get progressively much more difficult as time goes on.

Even with the latest patch I am a bit saddened to see the ability to simply forge an improvised knife. As a former blacksmith I can say that trying to bang a reliable knife together without any sort of real tools besides a hammer (which if we are going for realism you need an anvil, tongs, and a file at the very least!) is difficult, sure it's possible to do without all of those tools but you'll most likely burn yourself in the process and without a knowledge of basic metallurgy you will only end up with a slipshod knife that will most likely break the first time it hits a bone or a rock. In fact you'd be better off just filing a scrap piece of metal to a point rather than forging one...

Please don't get me wrong I love this game I really do, but I definitely admired it for it's simplicity and how truly difficult it was to survive.

All I have been saying all along is that surviving in these unforgiving environments is tough-- impossible? Of course not but it should NOT be a guaranteed thing or a matter of "just go grind for more resources"... Death lies at every turn and it is only a matter of time before sooner or later something does get you. Keep trying, fight to the last but don't even get comfortable...

[danicusrex]

Yeah, but the survivor in this game can skin an animal and make clothing, turn guts into bowstrings, craft a bow that doesn't immediately break... I daresay s/he is not an "average" person. This survivor has some woodcraft under their belt and is apparently just fine living in the wild. Otherwise those options wouldn't even be available, as a "normal" person has no idea how to do any of those things.

[z13l5ch31b3]

Beside your stories, any news about the (bow) drill ? This would be a logical improvement -and awesome.