WL Item: Add Custom Option to Disallow Pulling Torches from Fires

[dbmurph22]

Hi everyone,

I would love for the base game to have one of the options in the custom menu to be a yes/no for being able to pull torches from fires.  I know that's been part of the game for so long, but let's talk through this a bit.  Also keep in mind I'm proposing an option in the custom menu to toggle the option of creating a torch from the fire, not proposing to make it a standard mechanic of the game. I believe there is a mod that does this already so maybe as the mod situation grows that's there, but would love it part of the base game.

To be clear, this is the "Take Torch" icon that appears when you click on a fire source (along with "add fuel", "cook" etc).  Remove it!

Cons:

• I think opponents may start by saying it's not believable and immersion breaking to not be able to have a blazing fire and pull something from it that's also on fire.  That is true and would suffer a bit.  Counterpoint: even though a pulled torch gives you a lower duration torch, the ease in which you can get one and the resiliency of the torch to not go out are also a stretch of belief.  That's not to mention the trouble-free action of lightning an old pulled torch (or chaining it) with a match, which would normally be much harder and have a chance to fail.
• A lot of people base their gameplay around the use of torches so making them not be able to be pulled is a massive paradigm shift to people playing the game.  Counterpoint: this is why I think it's better as a custom option (or ultimate wishlist - part of a new difficulty level above interloper that also involves low recovery, plants, increased predator aggression).

Pros:

• For most players the torches don't detract from the difficulty of gameplay, but for many the presence of torches adds a bit of invulnerability as you can use them against the wolves with near perfect success (and recently I've seen they may help with Timberwolves too!).  The only thing to fear is a strong enough wind to blow out the torch and remove this protection, but it's just not frequent enough (another option is to make the torches go out easier?).  Anyhow, taking away the torch pull removes this protection and makes one of the chief antagonists of the game, the wildlife, perilous again.  
• This option would give added importance to the crafted torch and the kerosene.  Often in the current game, they can be undervalued, but by making torches have to be crafted only, then makes them valuable.
• It adds tactical and strategic depth and improves game decisions.  I've already alluded to some of the value of the torch (vs wolves), but some others are using them to help make firestarting 100%, add some warmth, and use torches to light other torches to not have to restart fires.  By removing pull from fires, you add associated costs with these benefits (before it's essentially the cost of a stick).  Now you need cloth, oil, and time.  You have to remember to set aside the activity to craft some of them.  And there won't be as many so you'll value each more (though each one will have initial much longer burn time).  In addition, you have to consider obtaining the items you need such as the cloth and the oil.  More decisions added.  Torch pulling is just easy.
• I think it adds some believability to the points mentioned in my cons counterpoint above - lighting a torch with a match, or with another torch doesn't seem difficult with a cloth dipped in fuel.

To me I still use torches from fires readily, though in some custom games I use a manual rule of not doing it to spice it up.  I've found it really adds to the game and improves it.  Another route is to make the pulled torches less reliable (not just shorter duration).

Thanks for reading and listening everyone!  All the best,

Murph

 

 

[Lord of the Long Dark]

I have made torches at campfires just putting the ends of branches into the fire. I never saw the mechanic as reaching in to a fire and pulling out a torch from the embers lol. 
  The torch mechanic is basically essential for interloper as is. In easy levels you don’t even really need torches to be honest unless you are traversing a cave- an interloper player will use a lantern though- matches too precious. 

[oplli]

I Use the torch a lot and wouldnt care if an option would let me remove it, ive always agreed on anything that makes the game harder as long as it is an option, i love the fact that people can customise their gamplay a lot

[ajb1978]

I'm neutral on the topic. If you don't want to pull torches from fires, don't pull torches from fires. That's a choice you as a player can make.

On the other hand, I thought the decision to go back to "take torch" was a strange step backwards. In very early builds you could pull torches from fires. Then they changed it to "take brand", which was shown as you holding as burning stick. You could "brandish" which instead of throwing, you'd wave it around in front of you for a slight hit to your stamina, which would scare wolves if done at the right time. Once they burned out, that was it. You couldn't re-light them. The downside was they NEVER despawned, so eventually you'd have a pile of burnt out brands all over the place that you could never get rid of.

[dbmurph22]

9 hours ago, Lord of the Long Dark said:

I have made torches at campfires just putting the ends of branches into the fire. I never saw the mechanic as reaching in to a fire and pulling out a torch from the embers lol. 
  The torch mechanic is basically essential for interloper as is. In easy levels you don’t even really need torches to be honest unless you are traversing a cave- an interloper player will use a lantern though- matches too precious. 

Yeah that's how I usually do it, too.  However, in the game you aren't spending an additional stick to take the torch, so logically it feels like you're taking from what's already there.  I mean if you're trying to picture it I guess you're thinking of the made fire have unburnt ends jutting out (not thrusting your hand in the middle of the fire).  Obviously, however, there's some belief issues if say you burn a book, add coal, and then take a torch.  All that said "pulling" a torch when people say it I'm not sure it's a literal thought...people say "pulling", "taking" and the like only because in the game mechanics you're getting a torch from something you already crafted without additional material used, that's all.

I don't think they are essential to surviving in Interloper but it makes it more difficult without for sure.  Something like Deadman with the torch mechanic is still harder than Interloper without it.  Taking in consideration all players, Interloper is very difficult and those beyond that don't represent much of the player base (though this number will continue to grow I imagine).  My journey through Interloper was filled with deaths.  That said I think there probably could be another difficulty level beyond Interloper, even before Deadman or NOGOA, that this would fit in nicely with.  But, again currently that's not a large slice of players and custom options are filling that void and this as one can as well.

I do think it increases strategy and tactical value in the gameplay given the wolf behavior.  But if it was made more standard and added to normal Interloper as it is you'd probably need to rebalance somehow.  Stalker to Interloper is a big jump and yeah if you couldn't do torches, that is an even more massive gulf.  

 

1 hour ago, oplli said:

I Use the torch a lot and wouldnt care if an option would let me remove it, ive always agreed on anything that makes the game harder as long as it is an option, i love the fact that people can customise their gamplay a lot

 

Same, well said!  To be fair, I use the torches a lot and do the same as everyone when I've decided to not make manual rules to not take them.  I pull a bunch of torches, chain them, use them for fires, break them down, get by wolves all the like.  Yeah, the custom options are great!  And the fact you can make it ever harder than Interloper is blessing for those that want to continue to play the game for many hours.

 

28 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

I'm neutral on the topic. If you don't want to pull torches from fires, don't pull torches from fires. That's a choice you as a player can make.

On the other hand, I thought the decision to go back to "take torch" was a strange step backwards. In very early builds you could pull torches from fires. Then they changed it to "take brand", which was shown as you holding as burning stick. You could "brandish" which instead of throwing, you'd wave it around in front of you for a slight hit to your stamina, which would scare wolves if done at the right time. Once they burned out, that was it. You couldn't re-light them. The downside was they NEVER despawned, so eventually you'd have a pile of burnt out brands all over the place that you could never get rid of.

 

Yeah, that's true and what I do now when I want to do this.  But having an option in the game is always a bit better.  Some people don't like an honor system - they want the game to command limitations.  Some don't like the increased weight of having to remember.  I mean, the custom menu has an option to have no fish spawn, but you could very well choose not to fish at all had that not been an option.  They added the option of turning birch bark tea off for the deadman runs.  I would also argue that it's probably even more helpful for maybe this activity since the frequency you click on the fire to do other tasks like water and cook, there's even more opportunity to reflexively take one.  I guess there's also a degree that it sort of officially legitimizes it.

But I do take your point and I think there's a point where you can just make the game how you want it to be on your own.  And one shouldn't want the game to put it all these requests.  But I'm not asking a bunch of things - I just picked this one out.  Also, on this front mods may come into play.

I never played with the brands, but I did see highlights of the brandishing.  If I recall it was like a forked stick with a bit of burning.  What a time.

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I wouldn't say I'm extremely passionate about the issue.  But it's something I like that I felt worth mentioning and I think is relatively easy to implement.  I say "relatively easy" because I respect the team and know every change is hard, but compared to other things that take adding art and animations, this is more "take the button away" and "add a custom menu button."

Thanks to all those that commented so far.

Edited December 12, 2021 by dbmurph22