The pilgrim gamers

[piddy3825]

2 hours ago, Haze said:

Yeah I tried that I worked my way from ash canyon to mystery lake 

It is more challenging to start in ash canyon I agree but it’s fun

You just have to get a little bit lucky with the wolf spawns and the weather in the early game

if you want there is a rifle that always spawns in any mode except interloper that spawns very close to anglers den you must access it from the light blue shaded area way below the anglers den

right on man!  appreciate a good map!

[UpUpAway95]

18 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

"In the card game contract bridge, a forcing bid is any call that obliges the partner to bid over an intermediate opposing pass. Owing to the partnership's bidding system or a bridge convention, partner must "keep the bidding open",[1] i.e. not pass, thereby preventing his left-hand opponent from ending the auction with a pass and enabling the "forcing bidder" to bid further." 

...I think that the context your using mischaracterizes the situation...

 

 

 

I know what you're trying to get at... but I think you're having to stretch pretty far and use what I would consider to be some odd mental gymnastics in order to get there.

I can respect your point of view on it... but I fundamentally disagree with you on your assertions.
We clearly don't agree on this, and that's okay.

The analogy I was using re contract bridge is that a "forcing bid" effectively removes the option of passing from the partner.  They must bid and keep the bidding open.  If their hand is weak and they wanted to pass,  they have to forfeit that choice and keep the bidding open or else their partner  is likely to get very angry with them.  They also have a limited set of response bids they can make because the player making the forcing bid has taken effective control of the hand because of the strength in their own hand.  The partner is now bidding just to provide the player who made the forcing bid with "infill" information about their own hand.  The partner still has choices, but they are not the original set of choices... those have been removed from the table.

Hinterland chose to remove the option of completing the achievement without going to Ash Canyon... the option that the player had selected already and started to perform on.  Hinterland took away that option and replaced it with the requirement that in order to finish what the player had already started they must go to Ash Canyon.  Hinterland was free to make a different choice - i.e. they could have opted to allow players who had started their files before the release of Hesitant Prospect to complete the achievement based on the requirements per the day the file was started.  They chose not to do that forcing the player to make the choice between forfeiting their progress or completing the added on condition to their "contract."  Again, the player did still have choices, but not the original set of choices... those were removed from the table... in this case, after the choice from the original set of choices had already been made.

In contract law, such unilaterally changing of contract terms is highly frowned upon and additional choices for restitution of the original terms or compensation might become available.  In this case (in TLD), as in contract bridge, such a "forcing bid" is acceptable.

The player eventually did make a free choice...  to go to Ash Canyon FIRST... after their original character died.to lessen the risk that they would lose a second character who had most of the achievement done before going.  Hinterland places no conditions within that achievement dictating the order in which the locations have to be surveyed.  They have the freedom to make such a choice... and I bet everyone in the progress of doing the achievement would be upset.

What contract?  Again, I'm using the term analogously... An agreement/understanding exists between the player and Hinterland that fulfilling a described set of actions results in a particular achievement.  The actions described in this achievement when the player "accepted" the agreement (i.e. made the choice to go after the achievement) were not the same as they became after Ash Canyon was added (i.e. a change of terms of the contract/agreement).  So again, the player could not have freely chosen to go to Ash Canyon as a requirement for that achievement since Ash Canyon did not exist nor were the locations described in the achievement at the time the player freely chose to undertake the achievement.

Edited February 3, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[UpUpAway95]

16 hours ago, Ps4Methuselah said:

This debate reminded me of Schrodinger's cat,...you both could be right & wrong at the same time.

If i had completed the achievement a minute sooner, i would have gotten said achievement without having mapped Ash Canyon. But, because i was a minute late, i was forced to do cartography on a buggy map that erased my save without me actually suffering permadeath.

In fact, we could argue that no ones achievements are valid until Hinterland finishes The Long Dark in its entirety...or we could also say that the fine folks that did cartography on only half of Great Bear years ago have the true achievement.

The truth here is subject to interpretation & to get a straight answer you would have to ask Raphael himself who is right.

Interesting debate, non the less. Very entertaining to read.

🦊

Did you know in advance that you had to complete the achievement before that minute?  Did Hinterland issue as warning about the date and time Ash Canyon would be released and state that the FC achievement would have added conditions put on it as a result?  Alternatively, after Ash Canyon released, did they give you any specific time at all where you could still complete the achievement without the Ash Canyon locations?  This are the sort of things that would place more of the "fault" in your lap... although my whole argument has not been at all about  assigning blame or "who's right and wrong" to anyone.  It's been only about whether or not a "free choice" existed to go or not to go to Ash Canyon and I've consistently said that Hinterland had the "free choice" to make the decision they did over the other "free choices" they could have made.

Your "achievement agreement/contract" with Hinterland began when you chose to start the achievement... not whenever you bought the game.  Why? Because that's when you agreed to the list of locations involved in the achievement.  When you decided to restart the quest for the achievement, you did freely agree to the new list.   My argument about you not making a free choice to go to Ash Canyon only applies to the first character, who died in Ash Canyon while trying to complete the already in progress achievement.  In that case, your choice was whether or not to abandon the contract or try to complete it.  Ash Canyon was, in that case, an added condition of completing the contract, not a free choice to go there.

People always have a choice, but they don't always have a free choice... and it's not a black and white thing because freedom of choice gets eroded by differing degrees.  For example, the level of coercion you felt towards going forward despite the changed terms and completing the achievement with that character would likely have been higher than a person who had only progressed a small ways into it before the changes were made.  Also, there are different schools of thought on the matter that have existed for centuries... Determinism, Stoicism, etc. have differing opinions on the nature of "free choice."

Edited February 3, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Admin]

Please return to the original topic of the thread. Contract law, theories of free choice are not that. 

We have always made new content playable in existing Survival Games. This is preferred by many players. People would be complaining just as vocally, or more, if we did the opposite. 
 

We encourage people to share their opinions but please try to stick with that. Your opinions are valuable and do not need further weight to be so. 
 

“I think that it would be better if Hinterland did X because Y” is direct, to the point and a useful place for debate to start. 

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Admin said:

Please return to the original topic of the thread. Contract law, theories of free choice are not that. 

We have always made new content playable in existing Survival Games. This is preferred by many players. People would be complaining just as vocally, or more, if we did the opposite. 
 

We encourage people to share their opinions but please try to stick with that. Your opinions are valuable and do not need further weight to be so. 
 

“I think that it would be better if Hinterland did X because Y” is direct, to the point and a useful place for debate to start. 

Point taken... I think that it would be better if Hinterland allowed players to complete the Faithful Cartographer achievement based on the list of locations at the date they start their file save because... all of the above discussion (recognizing that casual gamers may take several months or even years to completely explore the increasing number of locations in the game world without dying simply because there are significantly fewer threats in Pilgrim mode).

Edited February 3, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Ps4Methuselah said:

So, do you know what the term pants means my friend? I wandered around all of Great Bear for the last 3 year & i saw lots of pants...could that be what govner was eluding to? My favorite are deerskin...i still remember the first time git a pair...SPOILER ALERT!!! 

It was right after they did the redux & i went to talk to a forest talker by one of the cabins by Mystery Lake...he slipped me a note under the door & asked me if i would get him some ammo. I did & he kindly gave me my very first pair of deer pants...it seems like only yesterday. 🙂

What are your favorite pants in TLD my friend...let me guess,....combat pants? 😅

I admit I looked it up in the urban dictionary... which said it was an urban saying for "no good" which fits the context the OP seems to be using it.  He might be talking about the sounds the wolves make sometimes, I suppose... and I've encountered quite a few of them in Ash Canyon. 

All in all, I like Ash Canyon.  I haven't been inside the mine during an aurora yet, so do you know if the water electrified like that in the Cinder Hill's Mine and if the miner's basket moves?  If so, I'll be sure to avoid going there at night... unless Wintermute requires it.  I don't have a reason to go back there now with this particular save file.  I'm finding the crampons are nice, but not really essential.  I do like that you don't actually have to equip the backpack.  The best pants I found in Ash Canyon were just cargo pants.  They were in new condition though.  I didn't find any combat ones.  I'm rockin' double deer pants now.

ETA:  For Pilgrim gamers, the best pants in the game are probably the snow pants.  They don't really need protection from predators, so the warmth of the snow pants is more valuable to them.

Edited February 4, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[UpUpAway95]

6 hours ago, Ps4Methuselah said:

Electrified water you say? No, i did not experience anything like that...of course i didn't check for an aurora. It seems to me the miners in AC suffered the same curse as poor souls that dug for buried treasure on Oak Island. I don't think their tragedy was linked to the great collapse or the aurora event....rather simply put, " they dug too deep "

Perhaps mother nature decided enough is enough & turned the fire hose on them...maybe it was sabotage by the radical forest talkers. Whatever the case may be, i feel that what happened in the gold mine predated the quiet apocalypse.

Have you noticed something odd about Ash Canyon my friend? There is no civilized or should i say man made way in or out...a cave on one end...a crevasse on the other end.

No roads,...no rails...no heli pad. How did those people get in & out of there?

Balloons? 🧶just like in up 🙂

Makes you say hmmm...

I suspect that there are more things to be added to Ash Canyon yet, which will probably happen when Wintermute Episode 4 releases... just like the plane crash in Pleasant Valley was added when they released Episode 3.  The mine, in particular, seems unfinished to me... lots of dead ends that look like they don't really belong.  The Cinder Hill's Coal Mine was altered significantly when they released Episode 2.  Depending on where they put Perseverence Mills, the man-made connector might lead to that zone rather than TWM.  We really just don't know how much more Hinterlands might be planning to add to this game yet. 

Back on topic - I don't envy any casual gamers (i.e. gamers that don't spend hours and hours playing on a daily basis - which is the group I think the OP was talking about when they mentioned Pilgrim gamers) who might be trying to chase the Faithful Cartographer achievement.  It must seem like a moving target to them that just gets longer and more daunting with each addition to the game.

Edited February 4, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Ps4Methuselah said:

Yes my friend, the topic here is also the proverbial elephant in the room. A very small number of interloper players that play for barging rights & look down on those like me who prefer pilgrim & voyager to stalker or interloper.

It is human nature though...one cannot undue millions of years of evolution.

I know most folks here just play for fun but the reason i closed my steam account was because of the hardcore lopers that were unkind to anyone that wasn't in there camp.

Life goes on.

I here you.  That's one reason why I pretty much only identify myself as a "custom" gamer here.  What I enjoy most is mixing it up... doing a run on Interloper-type settings and then doing the next on Pilgrim-type settings... and with the versatility that Hinterland has so far built into the Custom menu, there is a lot of different ways I can go to make each run a little different than any I've done before... combine that with the mix of different zones they keep adding, the possibilities are almost endless.  For me, that defines "replayability" even without stretching any of my runs beyond the 500-day mark (because if they get boring to me when they last that long).  I like Interloper-type runs because they do tend to be rather short runs for me and I like Pilgrim-type runs because they are more stress-free.

Still, I think Govner, despite the tone of the original post, is expressing a valid point.  People who are only putting in a few hours here and theew in the game (because they have a life outside of gaming) and who are playing on difficulties where they won't tend to die frequently can conceivably being playing on filesaves that are now years old and be still working towards the FC achievement... which was a far less time-consuming achievement back when they started their files.  In addition, the new zones being added to the game are all harder than the early zones of Mystery Lake and Mountain Town.  Even without the difficulty of predators attacking, Ash Canyon is very time consuming to fully explore... requiring the player to schlep items (even wood) up and down ropes multiple times just to visit all the various plateaus on the map.

Edited February 4, 2021 by UpUpAway95