Revisit - Fire Starting

[GothSkunk]

Greetings

Presently, I'm annoyed with fire starting. After level 3, usage of tinder becomes optional, and the player suffers no effects -- ill or positive -- for its use. This should be re-addressed, I think.

 

Tinder being mandatory for levels 1 and 2 is fine, but once it becomes optional, choosing NOT to use it should come with some penalties to compensate.

 

PROPOSAL:

A new Fire Starting system, wherein the base chance to start a fire is always 40%, regardless of what level Fire Starting skill you have. This can be improved depending on the starter, the tinder, and the fuel.

At each level, the use of a Tinder Plug/Cat Tail Head increases your chance to start a fire.

Level 1: +5%

Level 2: +15%

Level 3: +15%, Tinder optional. Not using tinder makes fire twice as long to start burning

Level 4: +25%, Tinder optional. Not using tinder makes fire twice as long to start burning

Level 5: +35% Tinder optional. Not using tinder makes fire twice as long to start burning

 

Other tinder options can be used to further increase the chance of starting a fire. These items have the option of being broken down into tinder plugs, so the choice presented to the player is "Do I risk using an entire newspaper roll to increase my fire starting chance once by 20%? Or do I break it down into 4 tinder plugs, for 4 chances at 5% extra?"

Newsprint/Stack of Papers: 15/25/25/35/45%

Newsprint Roll/Birch Bark:  20/30/30/40/50%

 

Under this proposed system, tinder plugs would become essential throughout the entire game, and not something that can be dismissed as unnecessary once the player hits Fire Starting level 3.

[Fuarian]

Hmm... you know what fixed this issue? A mod. This is such a simple but realistic feature. Not having to use tinder is the most unrealistic thing I can think of in this game. Other than starting a fire with a match and a log. Honestly you shouldn't be able to start a fire with any piece of firewood, it should have to be sticks, books or anything small.

[UpUpAway95]

I think that the benefit of using tinder should be equal regardless of Level, but their should always be a benefit of +10%.  That means, at Level 5, your highest chance of starting a fire without tinder or accelerant should be 90% and using tinder or accelerant should boost it to 100%.  Higher level players have an increasing chance of starting a fire as it is and that would still apply, but it would never go above 90% without the use of tinder or accelerant.

If anything, the benefit of using it should be higher while it is mandatory... simply because that is the stage in the game when, at most difficulties, the player has the fewest options for starting fires and the most need (due to inadequate clothing) to start them with more reliability.  For the later game, I think 10% is enough of an incentive to still use it on occasion without making the difference so onerous that the "optional" aspect of levelling fire skill doesn't itself become obsolete.

ETA:  As an alternative, I think tinder should be added to the burnable fuels section so that, in a pinch, and out of sticks and other burnables, the player could optionally burn up excess tinder to, say, keep a fire going an extra minute or so to finish boiling some water or finish cooking some meat.

 

Edited May 11, 2019 by UpUpAway95
added idea

[Guest kristaok]

No I don't think there should be consequences for not using Tinder, instead we should be able to throw excess Tinder in the Fire for a tiny bit of Heat. 

[E_T]

Not only should tinder add a percentage chance to start a fire, no matter if it can be used to start it or not, if you have piles of them, you should be able to add them to a fire so as to add a bit of time to it.

Also, adding lots of charcoal to a fire, while not adding time to a fire (or very little time, like a minute), it should help to make the fire hotter, for a while.

Also, leaving charcoal in a burnt out fire should allow the newly started fire to burn slightly hotter, for a while.

[UpUpAway95]

9 minutes ago, E_T said:

Not only should tinder add a percentage chance to start a fire, no matter if it can be used to start it or not, if you have piles of them, you should be able to add them to a fire so as to add a bit of time to it.

Also, adding lots of charcoal to a fire, while not adding time to a fire (or very little time, like a minute), it should help to make the fire hotter, for a while.

Also, leaving charcoal in a burnt out fire should allow the newly started fire to burn slightly hotter, for a while.

I'm not adverse to this idea; but do keep in mind that to adopt this, Hinterlands would have to significantly change their fire mechanics.  Currently, there is no way for the temperature of a fire to gradually decrease.  It stays at its hottest temperature until it burns right out.   Different fuels have different mas temperatures and will, if added, continue to increase the both the temperature and the burn time of the fire until that max temperature is reached or exceeded.  That's why coal is needed to get a forge fire to 150C since every other fuel has a lower max temperature and it's also why you can, after getting a forge up to temperature, use other forms of fuel (like reclaimed wood rather than additional coal) to extend the burn time without suffering a decrease in the temperature of the forge.

[ManicManiac]

I don't know, I think fire starting skill system and process is fine as is right now.

Though I would like to see a couple of things added to the existing system: a hand-drill ignition method added, and to have kindling give at least just a small percentage toward the "fire starting chance" so it can still be useful after level 3.

(I think OP's proposed idea is neat to think about, but I don't really see a need for a total overhaul)

Edited May 29, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 6:58 PM, UpUpAway95 said:

ETA:  As an alternative, I think tinder should be added to the burnable fuels section so that, in a pinch, and out of sticks and other burnables, the player could optionally burn up excess tinder to, say, keep a fire going an extra minute or so to finish boiling some water or finish cooking some meat.

Maybe, but the thing about most tinder is... well, to turn a phrase, it goes up like tinder  
So it seems like it would reasonably take a ridiculous amount of it to add any meaningful burn time.

[UpUpAway95]

37 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Maybe, but the thing about most tinder is... well, to turn a phrase, it goes up like tinder  
So it seems like it would reasonably take a ridiculous amount of it to add any meaningful burn time.

Sometimes a minute can be "meaningful" if a minute is all you need to finish a pot of boiling water.  The other option being to add something the burns longer and "waste" the overage.  Also, right now, I have a ridiculous amount of paper (future tinder plugs) collected by cleaning up just the huts around Mystery Lake, not to mention a pile of cat tails sitting by my camp fires that now have no use at all.  The other option was to leave them... and let them litter the area beneath each cat tail plant around the lake.  I'd honestly love to be able to burn them just to clean up the area.  Burning it is the only way to make it disappear completely and optionally starting fires with it after Level 3 doesn't, quite frankly, use it up fast enough for me.

Edited May 29, 2019 by UpUpAway95

[ManicManiac]

7 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Sometimes a minute can be "meaningful"

Oh absolutely.  Which is what I meant by meaningful.  Most real tinder doesn't burn for more than a handful seconds at best (that's why you use it to get your spark going), hence I suggested it would take a large amount to add up to anything meaningful.   

Keep in mind that tinder is not the same thing as kindling...  

[UpUpAway95]

42 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Oh absolutely.  Which is what I meant by meaningful.  Most real tinder doesn't burn for more than a handful seconds at best (that's why you use it to get your spark going), hence I suggested it would take a large amount to add up to anything meaningful.   

Keep in mind that tinder is not the same thing as kindling...  

So... is it more meaningful for it to sit in a big pile by the campfire? or lay on the ground littering the base of a cat tail plant?... and not be able to use however much of it to add a minute to a fire but have to use the coal in your inventory instead to finish off the pot of water on the stove?

Keep in mind that IRL, I can convert newspapers to Fire Logs, not just tinder plugs.

Edited May 29, 2019 by UpUpAway95

[ManicManiac]

@UpUpAway95
I didn't say that... and I think it's pretty clear I didn't imply anything of the kind.  There is no reason for you to get defensive... there is really nothing to argue about.

No one said you are wrong, you have every right to share your ideas...  Just like I have every right to share mine.  

[UpUpAway95]

1 minute ago, ManicManiac said:

@UpUpAway95
I didn't say that... and I think it's pretty clear I didn't imply anything of the kind.  There is no reason for you to get defensive... there is really nothing to argue about.

No one said you are wrong, you have every right to share your ideas...  Just like I have every right to share mine.  

I didn't think I was being defensive... just trying to clarify things.  I admit that I was a little surprised by your attempt to edify me about the differences between tinder and kindling.

[ManicManiac]

@UpUpAway95
Fair enough, perhaps I miss read your remarks.  My mistake if I did.

As far as pointing out that tinder was not the same as kindling... it was not intended to be a slight... nor was I intending to talk down to anyone.  I was really just adding it as playful comment to help illustrate my point.  I was not trying to educate you on anything, I was just offering my opinion on the subject and trying to explain why I saw it that way.

 I bear no ill will.

Edited May 29, 2019 by ManicManiac