Faithful Cartographer or Rabbits at the Fairground Hunt ?

[Vinceofpyrenees]

I started my first game in Stalker in this v.423. I've survived 4 days in Pleasant Valley.

There are more rabbits than before. Hinterland want to be sure the new primitive hunt with wtone will be used ?

I am not a fan of this. Why don't you kept the previous amount of rabbits ?

I also though stones was a desesparate way to hunt rabbits. But what an efficiency ! 10 rabbits in 4 days !

I think the precision of the stone shot is good but the rabbit's AI is totally broken ! I can approach them to 3 meters (like 5 meters while standing and 3 meters while crouching), they are not afraid, and often come back to me slowly. So it's like at the fun fair, I strike so much rabbits.

The AI is so unrealistic. I no this is not the credo of hinterland, the realism. They prefer balance the game. But the gamer isn't balance too. The AI make snares 100% useless.

 

I suggest :

- increase the Rabbit's detection range. (like it was before). If you do that, make them longer time shocked when they are hurted by the stone, to give us the time to run at them. 

- make them faster in certain circomstances

- little decrease of the quantity of rabbits.

- slightly increase the calories/kg, because it will be more difficult to catch.

 

[Vinceofpyrenees]

I can indefinitely make him run away straight and he will go back straight on me. 

[Dirmagnos]

Hinterland seem to be on a determined to completely trash hunting balance. Only thing that made hunting rabbits inefficient way to stay fed indefinitely, was their relatively low amount.

As hunting of predators like wolves and bears has been becoming increasingly less profitable and expensive(in terms of resources), compared to trapping and fishing combo, they seem to be hellbent to make it completely obsolete.

[Honor]

28 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Hinterland seem to be on a determined to completely trash hunting balance. Only thing that made hunting rabbits inefficient way to stay fed indefinitely, was their relatively low amount.

As hunting of predators like wolves and bears has been becoming increasingly less profitable and expensive(in terms of resources), compared to trapping and fishing combo, they seem to be hellbent to make it completely obsolete.

I respectfully disagree.

All of my runs consist of deer hunting, snaring, fishing, and hunting wolves and bears for pelts for crafting.

If I do reach level 5 cooking, bring on the bear feasts, because that is an easy way to stockpile food. Bull fight them with a decent arrow shot and let em' bleed.

The parasite infested nature of carnivorous meat makes sense, as they will eat intestinal tract that has fecal matter in it, thus carrying risk in their bodily meat, whereas deer meat is safe, being that they are herbivores. Want safe carnivore meat? Learn proper preparation, which is in the game, if you level it up enough.

Making wolves edible from early on with no risk is a bad thing to do (bears too) as this allows players to kill 2 birds with one stone-craft, and eat. Whereas now, it is an interesting and strategic choice based on current condition, what kind of access you have to certain gear (weapons etc.), weather, current food supply etc (there are many other factors to consider, like walking distance to the hunt).But if you want the good stuff, and to eat right now, you need to make a choice if your cooking level is not high enough. Makes sense to me.

I do agree we should not have stone throwing, the early game is easy enough as it is.

Source: Multiple 100+ day runs on interloper difficulty.

[Dirmagnos]

On 6/8/2017 at 5:41 PM, Honor said:

All of my runs consist of deer hunting, snaring, fishing, and hunting wolves and bears for pelts for crafting.

Thats the thing, wolves and bears are mainly used as source of hides, not food. At the very best their meat is used as side dish.

 

On 6/8/2017 at 5:41 PM, Honor said:

If I do reach level 5 cooking, bring on the bear feasts, because that is an easy way to stockpile food. Bull fight them with a decent arrow shot and let em' bleed.

Both cooking and bleeding mechanics are horrendously broken. With lvl5 cooking magically making player completely immune to both parasites and food poisoning, out of the blue, as previous levels have absolutely no effect on either. And bleeding seem to have 100% of killing a wolf and fairly decent chance to kill a bear. Just one bullet or arrow while sitting in, yet another critical shortcoming of the game, unassailable fortress called fishing hut, and thats it, just wait it out. Like zero effort or skill involved.

Same with hiding in the house after taking a potshot. Animal conditions should reset when player does that.

On 6/8/2017 at 5:41 PM, Honor said:

The parasite infested nature of carnivorous meat makes sense, as they will eat intestinal tract that has fecal matter in it, thus carrying risk in their bodily meat, whereas deer meat is safe, being that they are herbivores. Want safe carnivore meat? Learn proper preparation, which is in the game, if you level it up enough.

What a load of nonsense. Wolves, as most animals, especially carnivores, avoid fecal matter. Only reason they consume it is if they are critically low on certain minerals or vitamins. In addition to that their their digestive system is extremely powerful and is capable to destroy most of the viruses and pathogens due to nature of their diet.

In addition to that, from where to *censored* you think those parasites come from ? Any parasites that carnivores could possible have comes from their prey, eg. herbivores like deer. And if were talking parasites(and poisoning due to pollution), then in those terms fish is ahead of carnivores by like a mile. Yet in game, neither deer nor fish have any chance to give player parasites(or any other negative condition) after cooking.

And on top of all that, properly cooking meat(and 20 minutes is more that enough) should kill any parasites in 99.99% cases.

On 6/8/2017 at 5:41 PM, Honor said:

Making wolves edible from early on with no risk is a bad thing to do (bears too) as this allows players to kill 2 birds with one stone-craft, and eat. Whereas now, it is an interesting and strategic choice based on current condition, what kind of access you have to certain gear (weapons etc.), weather, current food supply etc (there are many other factors to consider, like walking distance to the hunt).But if you want the good stuff, and to eat right now, you need to make a choice if your cooking level is not high enough. Makes sense to me.

Making deer edible from early one with no risk is a bad thing to do(rabbits too), as this allows players to kill 3 birds with one stone - craft, eat and all that with no danger whatsoever...

Whereas now its a completely disbalanced feature, where hunting wolf is extremely expensive in terms of resources, from any angle, with extremely little return on such investment - meat is unsafe and hide is used in just one recipe. While hunting deer is far far far more profitable, as it takes same or less resources, involves no danger whatsoever and yields more and completely safe meat. Trapping and fishing are even easier: as trapping costs literally no resources, as reclaimed wood is salvaged back after snare breaks(not to mention that its extremely abundant in general and washed ashore all the time, in case player somehow manages to lose/use it all), with guts coming from same rabbits. Considering that one snare is usually enough to catch several rabbits, only tradeoff was relative scarcity of rabbits. It was the ONLY thing that balanced this otherwise completely effortless way of gaining both food and resources. Fishing is tad harder(relatively), but is pretty much in same category as trapping, with only difference being that it requires scrap metal instead of reclaimed wood. But since scrap metal is used in only couple recipes, it main usage is making fishing hooks and 3 at the time at that. At the same time scrap metal is abundant, there are several locations in game that allow player to salvage literally a ton of it. Plus its in a list of items that can wash ashore for some unexplainable reason. Granted, player needs hacksaw to salvage it, that is repaired with toolkits, that are resupplied with...scrap metal.

At the same time player, especially on higher levels of fishing, can catch huge fishes, with my personal record being like 3.8 kilos(or something along those lines), with relatively low chance of line breaking. Lines are made from guts that can be gotten from same rabbits. Plus, cooking fish yield oil that is used in storm lanterns, in amounts that are more than sufficient. In one good day of fishing player can catch enough fish to last him for a week. That is almost perfect conditions, in location that is protected from wind, has stove and containers. Allowing player to both store and cook his catch without going anywhere. In complete safety(and relative warmth) as wolves/bears are incapable of entering those huts. Easy, safe, comfortable and extremely profitable enterprise.

Ohh, almost forgot, fishing lines also can be used to repair clothing - use line 9 times, saving a lot of sewing kits, and then use remaining 10% on fishing, as fishing line durability seem to have no effect on it chance of breaking from fishing

Only thing that wolves may be going for them is crafting, aka hides. But... not really.

Only thing that player can craft from wolf pelts is wolfskin coat. And while it does give good warmth/windproof bonus, value of this item have been completely destroyed in Resolute update. Wolfskin coat has 2 huge negative penalties - it weight and mobility, reducing it from top-tier item to, at the very best, to low/mid-tier item. At the same time ability to wear 2 mid-body clothing items completely negates any bonuses that wolfskin coat may provide, with most mid-level(not to mention top-tier) manufactured clothing items having far better overall scores. And since player has plenty of various clothing items for this slot and need to balance bonuses and penalties, wolfskin coat is somewhere in the back of the line.

Deer hides, at the same time, allow to craft 2 items, pants and boots. While pants id place in same category as wolfskin coat, as they are heavy and have good manufactured alternatives and player also have 2 slots for that part, boots are completely different thing. As absolutely all decent-to-good manufactured footwear require cured leather to repair, that is extremely rare item and cant be crafted by player. This alone would put deer hides far above wolf hides. Simple fact that there are 2 items that can be made from deer hides only add to it value.

Rabbit pelts, while also having only one recipe, also have same huge bonus, as do deerskin boots. All decent-to-good clothing for hand slot require cured hides to repair. And while their mobility penalty is rather severe, considering alternatives, it also have really good warmth/windproof/waterproof bonuses that make up for it.

So, if we compare effort, resources spent and returns on all of those, then wolves get the short end of the stick from every possible angle. And this situation has been this way for a while and only get worse, as anything associated with wolves get more and more penalties, while everything that is associated with deer/rabbit/fish only gets bonuses. Update after update after update.

Instead of being dangerous animals, with appropriate penalties and bonuses, that make hunting them worth it under right conditions(like fish, that not just fills player belly, but also gives some lamp fuel), with added benefits due to dangers associated with meeting them, they are reduced to to nuisance, as they have no value but to annoy player. If Hinterland were to make wolves fearful of humans(like deer), their value would not change even a little bit, as players would simply walk past them, as they have absolutely nothing to offer. Absolutely every aspect of what wolves may give player can be obtained from other animals, more and with better quality. They are like this extremely annoying and pointless Windows message "Are you absolutely sure that you want to delete this file"...asked for 10th time.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

14 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Both cooking and bleeding mechanics are horrendously broken. With lvl5 cooking magically making player completely immune to both parasites and food poisoning, out of the blue, as previous levels have absolutely no effect on either.

Same with hiding in the house after taking a potshot. Animal conditions should reset when player does that.

In addition to that, from where to *censored* you think those parasites come from ? Any parasites that carnivores could possible have comes from their prey, eg. herbivores like deer. And if were talking parasites(and poisoning due to pollution), then in those terms fish is ahead of carnivores by like a mile. Yet in game, neither deer nor fish have any chance to give player parasites(or any other negative condition) after cooking.

And on top of all that, properly cooking meat(and 20 minutes is more that enough) should kill any parasites in 99.99% cases.

So, parasites risk complety disappear at level 5 ? It's a shame, I started a stalker game especially to be confronted to that risk. And you are right in the same time when you say parasites should be killed at 99% with cooking. 

In fact I wish to keep a risk, whatever the level cooking, but only decreasing with these levels (the character learn how to cook the meat well).

I wish to introduce also a risk with herbivorous, even if it is slight.

 

EDITED : not agree for the animal condition that should be reset. It is not realistic, and moreover, the world is actually persistent.

* spelling

 

[Honor]

3 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Thats the thing, wolves and bears are mainly used as source of hides, not food. At the very best their meat is used as side dish.

 

Both cooking and bleeding mechanics are horrendously broken. With lvl5 cooking magically making player completely immune to both parasites and food poisoning, out of the blue, as previous levels have absolutely no effect on either. And bleeding seem to have 100% of killing a wolf and fairly decent chance to kill a bear. Just one bullet or arrow while sitting in, yet another critical shortcoming of the game, unassailable fortress called fishing hut, and thats it, just wait it out. Like zero effort or skill involved.

Same with hiding in the house after taking a potshot. Animal conditions should reset when player does that.

What a load of nonsense. Wolves, as most animals, especially carnivores, avoid fecal matter. Only reason they consume it is if they are critically low on certain minerals or vitamins. In addition to that their their digestive system is extremely powerful and is capable to destroy most of the viruses and pathogens due to nature of their diet.

In addition to that, from where to *censored* you think those parasites come from ? Any parasites that carnivores could possible have comes from their prey, eg. herbivores like deer. And if were talking parasites(and poisoning due to pollution), then in those terms fish is ahead of carnivores by like a mile. Yet in game, neither deer nor fish have any chance to give player parasites(or any other negative condition) after cooking.

And on top of all that, properly cooking meat(and 20 minutes is more that enough) should kill any parasites in 99.99% cases.

Making deer edible from early one with no risk is a bad thing to do(rabbits too), as this allows players to kill 3 birds with one stone - craft, eat and all that with no danger whatsoever...

Whereas now its a completely disbalanced feature, where hunting wolf is extremely expensive in terms of resources, from any angle, with extremely little return on such investment - meat is unsafe and hide is used in just one recipe. While hunting deer is far far far more profitable, as it takes same or less resources, involves no danger whatsoever and yields more and completely safe meat. Trapping and fishing are even easier: as trapping costs literally no resources, as reclaimed wood is salvaged back after snare breaks(not to mention that its extremely abundant in general and washed ashore all the time, in case player somehow manages to lose/use it all), with guts coming from same rabbits. Considering that one snare is usually enough to catch several rabbits, only tradeoff was relative scarcity of rabbits. It was the ONLY thing that balanced this otherwise completely effortless way of gaining both food and resources. Fishing is tad harder(relatively), but is pretty much in same category as trapping, with only difference being that it requires scrap metal instead of reclaimed wood. But since scrap metal is used in only couple recipes, it main usage is making fishing hooks and 3 at the time at that. At the same time scrap metal is abundant, there are several locations in game that allow player to salvage literally a ton of it. Plus its in a list of items that can wash ashore for some unexplainable reason. Granted, player needs hacksaw to salvage it, that is repaired with toolkits, that are resupplied with...scrap metal.

At the same time player, especially on higher levels of fishing, can catch huge fishes, with my personal record being like 3.8 kilos(or something along those lines), with relatively low chance of line breaking. Lines are made from guts that can be gotten from same rabbits. Plus, cooking fish yield oil that is used in storm lanterns, in amounts that are more than sufficient. In one good day of fishing player can catch enough fish to last him for a week. That is almost perfect conditions, in location that is protected from wind, has stove and containers. Allowing player to both store and cook his catch without going anywhere. In complete safety(and relative warmth) as wolves/bears are incapable of entering those huts. Easy, safe, comfortable and extremely profitable enterprise.

Ohh, almost forgot, fishing lines also can be used to repair clothing - use line 9 times, saving a lot of sewing kits, and then use remaining 10% on fishing, as fishing line durability seem to have no effect on it chance of breaking from fishing

Only thing that wolves may be going for them is crafting, aka hides. But... not really.

Only thing that player can craft from wolf pelts is wolfskin coat. And while it does give good warmth/windproof bonus, value of this item have been completely destroyed in Resolute update. Wolfskin coat has 2 huge negative penalties - it weight and mobility, reducing it from top-tier item to, at the very best, to low/mid-tier item. At the same time ability to wear 2 mid-body clothing items completely negates any bonuses that wolfskin coat may provide, with most mid-level(not to mention top-tier) manufactured clothing items having far better overall scores. And since player has plenty of various clothing items for this slot and need to balance bonuses and penalties, wolfskin coat is somewhere in the back of the line.

Deer hides, at the same time, allow to craft 2 items, pants and boots. While pants id place in same category as wolfskin coat, as they are heavy and have good manufactured alternatives and player also have 2 slots for that part, boots are completely different thing. As absolutely all decent-to-good manufactured footwear require cured leather to repair, that is extremely rare item and cant be crafted by player. This alone would put deer hides far above wolf hides. Simple fact that there are 2 items that can be made from deer hides only add to it value.

Rabbit pelts, while also having only one recipe, also have same huge bonus, as do deerskin boots. All decent-to-good clothing for hand slot require cured hides to repair. And while their mobility penalty is rather severe, considering alternatives, it also have really good warmth/windproof/waterproof bonuses that make up for it.

So, if we compare effort, resources spent and returns on all of those, then wolves get the short end of the stick from every possible angle. And this situation has been this way for a while and only get worse, as anything associated with wolves get more and more penalties, while everything that is associated with deer/rabbit/fish only gets bonuses. Update after update after update.

Instead of being dangerous animals, with appropriate penalties and bonuses, that make hunting them worth it under right conditions(like fish, that not just fills player belly, but also gives some lamp fuel), with added benefits due to dangers associated with meeting them, they are reduced to to nuisance, as they have no value but to annoy player. If Hinterland were to make wolves fearful of humans(like deer), their value would not change even a little bit, as players would simply walk past them, as they have absolutely nothing to offer. Absolutely every aspect of what wolves may give player can be obtained from other animals, more and with better quality. They are like this extremely annoying and pointless Windows message "Are you absolutely sure that you want to delete this file"...asked for 10th time.

You are simply incorrect, carnivores have been observed eating intestines routinely, and despite their bodies being able to handle pathogens, our systems are not able to do the same. We don't even have functioning appendixes so I don't know why you'd think this.

You're again wrong about the functioning of cooking and hunting and bleeding. Arrows do not have a "chance," they in fact do beed the animal if a shot successfully punctures their hides. If you're playing on interloper, it is incredibly hard to simply shoot a wolf, leave, and come back to find the corpse later by "fishing hut camping" as the blood trail will be gone. You must blood trail track the animal, and if you don't, you risk losing the hide forever.

You did not address the widely known *fact* that hunting previous to parasites was incredibly imbalanced, as it allowed you to hunt *only* wolves and bears and you simply had no use for deer, ever, especially because 100% of what you need for deerskin clothing can come from ravaged carcasses. Again, deer would be even more irrelevant than they are now if parasites go away.

In fact, my first voyager playthrough consisted of 0 fishing and 0 deer hunting, it was rather laughable.

But on interloper? I have tracked a deer bleeding out to a wolf and had to face off with him for the kill. You won't get that experience if all you did was hunt predators.

In the early game there is still risk with harvesting deer carcasses, as with how little you get in drops (next to none) and how often windstorms/blizzards are, as well has having to plan places to sleep (unless you're very lucky and get a bedroll early on) it is a risk/reward decision to stop, thaw, and hand harvest deer carcasses. There are some I leave behind for this very reason.

The game was well balanced before the rabbit pop increase and speed reduction/introduction of stones. It was INCREDIBLY costly to rely only on fishing in interloper, as you would need to, on most days due to weather use a match, and only collect maybe a day's worth of food (even with lvl 4 fishing deer hunting was more profitable, albeit more dangerous), plus you need to use a ton of firewood then get back to where you are need to sleep.

BTW, crafted clothing suffers from this, ALL crafted clothing in interloper, as the temperatures are so incredibly brutal they barely help anyway.

I would say to add more value to the wolfskin coat it needs to intimidate at a higher rate and needs to be warmer.

I do agree that bearskin is also grossly underpowered as it only offers a tiny bit more warmth than the expedition parka but is way heavier.

Instead of being so caustic in your writing, the devs might listen if you're more civil and constructive @Dirmagnos

There is 1 thing we agree on, the wolfskin coat is garbage for what you have to do to get it, I have screenshots on interloper of me comparing it to the expe parka and it's rather silly. I do think bear and wolf hide items should be extremely warm, they do live outside permanently, they don't only have +4 or +6 C ratings lol.

 

EDIT: As a side note, the largest fish I have had was 5.8kg and he still was worth about 2k calories, but it took me about 6 hours to get him. Fishing is not broken. 

[Honor]

27 minutes ago, Vinceofpyrenees said:

So, parasites risl complety disapear at level 5 ? It's a shame, I sated a stalker game especially to be confronted to that risk. And you are right in the same time when you say parasites should be killed at 99% with cooking. 

In fact I wish to keep a risk, whatever the level cooking, but only decreasing with these levels (the character learn how to cook the meat well).

I wish to introduce also a risk with herbivorous, even if it is slight.

 

You can literally eat blowfish if you know how to prep it correctly.

I imagine the same logic would apply here, and it does. Good enough of a cook? You won't get sick.

[cekivi]

26 minutes ago, Honor said:

You can literally eat blowfish if you know how to prep it correctly.

I imagine the same logic would apply here, and it does. Good enough of a cook? You won't get sick.

I think the main complaint was it is not an incremental change. In other words, it would be a much better mechanic if parasite risk was reduced at each level until it is eliminated completely with level 5 cooking. 

[Honor]

4 minutes ago, cekivi said:

I think the main complaint was it is not an incremental change. In other words, it would be a much better mechanic if parasite risk was reduced at each level until it is eliminated completely with level 5 cooking. 

I tend to think that with something like poisonous meat in blowfish or parasites in carnivore meat, you either have the skill, or you don't.

Almost like replacing a gasket in a car, either you know how to, or you don't. If you don't your car beaks down, and that's that.

But from a game balance perspective I can certainly see this being a thing @cekivi, thank you for giving me some perspective on it.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

9 hours ago, cekivi said:

I think the main complaint was it is not an incremental change. In other words, it would be a much better mechanic if parasite risk was reduced at each level until it is eliminated completely with level 5 cooking. 

Exactly.

[Dirmagnos]

19 hours ago, Vinceofpyrenees said:

In fact I wish to keep a risk, whatever the level cooking, but only decreasing with these levels (the character learn how to cook the meat well).

I wish to introduce also a risk with herbivorous, even if it is slight.

not agree for the animal condition that should be reset. It is not realistic, and moreover, the world is actually persistent.

I think that cooking should decrease parasites risk by 15% and poisoning by 5% per level. Also current way how parasites work is weird, to put it mildly.

Imo parasite chance should be one-time thing, based on amount of calories consumed. 1/10 for carnivores(eg consuming 1000 cal worth piece of meat should have 10% one-time chance to infect player with parasites) and fish and 1/20 for venison and rabbit. To prevent exploitation and taking small bites, that risk is cumulative and gradually decreases over time(slower at first, but then progressively faster as time goes by after a meal).

Right now jumping into a building is a get-out-of-jail-free-card and there should be some penalties to it. Maybe provide like 5% chance that wolf manages to jump in before door is closed, or something along those lines.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

You are simply incorrect, carnivores have been observed eating intestines routinely, and despite their bodies being able to handle pathogens, our systems are not able to do the same. We don't even have functioning appendixes so I don't know why you'd think this.

Eating intestines is not same as eating feces. Prove me wrong, give me sources.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

You're again wrong about the functioning of cooking and hunting and bleeding. Arrows do not have a "chance," they in fact do beed the animal if a shot successfully punctures their hides. If you're playing on interloper, it is incredibly hard to simply shoot a wolf, leave, and come back to find the corpse later by "fishing hut camping" as the blood trail will be gone. You must blood trail track the animal, and if you don't, you risk losing the hide forever.

Except that game do not address a huge array of variables, like arrow simply puncturing skin, without doing any severe damage. Or not even puncturing it, but getting stuck in fur. Or simple flesh wound. Or striking bone. Or many many many others, that will not even slow animal down, not to mention causing it to bleed out. In tLD wolves always bleed out, as if every hit is a deep penetrating one and causes severe internal damage.

And your interloper example is irrelevant. Fact that "blood trail is gone" merely refers to difficulties associated with tracking, not animal survivability. As regardless of you finding it or not, it will die always. In real life those are damn tough animals.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

You did not address the widely known *fact* that hunting previous to parasites was incredibly imbalanced, as it allowed you to hunt *only* wolves and bears and you simply had no use for deer, ever, especially because 100% of what you need for deerskin clothing can come from ravaged carcasses. Again, deer would be even more irrelevant than they are now if parasites go away.

And you are missing the fact that wolves used to be a lot tougher and then gradually reduced to level of pups.

And on top of that you completely discarded all the factors that i have mentioned, like deerskin boots ease of repair, or that deer have higher amount of meat, or that deer do not fight back.

And even if i do accept you nitpicking, you are describing exactly situation that wolves are NOW. They are irrelevant and serve no other purpose than to annoy people.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

But on interloper? I have tracked a deer bleeding out to a wolf and had to face off with him for the kill. You won't get that experience if all you did was hunt predators.

Are you serious ? If you were to hunt solely predators its exactly what you would be experiencing every time - facing off animal that are aggressive towards player. Deer, on the other hand, do not fight back. You keep on sinking own arguments by providing opposing facts.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

In the early game there is still risk with harvesting deer carcasses, as with how little you get in drops (next to none) and how often windstorms/blizzards are, as well has having to plan places to sleep (unless you're very lucky and get a bedroll early on) it is a risk/reward decision to stop, thaw, and hand harvest deer carcasses. There are some I leave behind for this very reason.

And again, those examples have nothing to do with predators.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

The game was well balanced before the rabbit pop increase and speed reduction/introduction of stones. It was INCREDIBLY costly to rely only on fishing in interloper, as you would need to, on most days due to weather use a match, and only collect maybe a day's worth of food (even with lvl 4 fishing deer hunting was more profitable, albeit more dangerous), plus you need to use a ton of firewood then get back to where you are need to sleep.

And some more that has nothing to do with topic on hand.  And further bury own argument referring to how deer hunting is more profitable than fishing, with no mention on where predator hunting is on this scale. My guess would be somewhere on the bottom of the list, as it is completely not worth it, from any standpoint.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

Instead of being so caustic in your writing, the devs might listen if you're more civil and constructive

My experience do not support such presumptions, so i dont bother anymore.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

EDIT: As a side note, the largest fish I have had was 5.8kg and he still was worth about 2k calories, but it took me about 6 hours to get him. Fishing is not broken.

Even if you would catch only this fish in those 6 hours, it would still be worth it. But im pretty sure there were plenty of other fish prior to that. Maybe it depends on fish, but i remember for sure that i was like "wow, just one fish, a whole day worth of food", so im pretty sure that my catch, that was slightly below 4kg, had at least 2.5k cal.

You dont need to look for fish, chase it, shoot or fight it, skin it, gut it or quarter it(and possibly get stuck in the middle of nowhere in a blizzard), it doesnt have parasites and it also give you lamp oil.

19 hours ago, Honor said:

You can literally eat blowfish if you know how to prep it correctly.

I imagine the same logic would apply here, and it does. Good enough of a cook? You won't get sick.

Prepping blowfish requires specialized training(with license issued) on its own and takes years to master. And even then there are risks.

18 hours ago, Honor said:

I tend to think that with something like poisonous meat in blowfish or parasites in carnivore meat, you either have the skill, or you don't.

Youre comparing apples and oranges. One requires most basic thermal treatment, while other requires extensive knowledge and training. Its like comparing building sand castles on the beach with designing skyscrapers.

[Honor]

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Eating intestines is not same as eating feces. Prove me wrong, give me sources.

I literally do not need sources. It's a well known fact to anyone aware of what death brings that even if you just went to the bathroom every mammal empties its' bowels and bladder upon death, and there is always *something* that comes out, trust me. Residual fecal matter is not only common, but very, very normal. Go get a CAT scan of your intestines after pooping, you'll be shocked at how much is leftover. Even dying does not completely empty you out.

Also, it seems you are ignorant to the well known fact among hunters that they do not eat wolf meat due to the possibility of parasites. Don't believe me? Go ask one. Wolves are also known to scavenge and eat rotting meat which would bring risk of parasites in their meat.

Even black bears, despite being omnivores that eat berries, insects, and fish etc will eat rotting corpses.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

And your interloper example is irrelevant. Fact that "blood trail is gone" merely refers to difficulties associated with tracking, not animal survivability. As regardless of you finding it or not, it will die always. In real life those are damn tough animals.

No, you can glance an arrow off of a wolf, and I have. You can fight a wolf with a knife, and it may not die. That has happened to me as well. And if you were to successfully hit a wolf with an arrow, it would die, most assuredly IRL. Wolves only weight about 35kg, maybe 45 if it is a huge wolf. And most people that have no medical training have no idea just how lethal an arrow puncture wound is.

The wolf would die upon a successful shot, end of story. There is no question in my mind, unless you hit only a leg or paw, but even then, such a crippling disadvantage in the unforgiving tundra is almost guaranteed death. It would be incredibly rare to survive that.

Furthermore, wolves respawn and will never run out of population so I don't see the concern here. If I don't engage in the danger of tracking it, then I risk wasting resources for no pelt? A waste of time, supplies, and condition, but for no pelt. That is an incredible blunder on Interloper. I cannot overstate how incredibly bad it would be to waste that wolf on that difficulty and simply leave it to die for no other reason than to have wanted to kill it.

Plus your arrow and therefore the arrowhead is stuck with him. Yet more losses, for an empty kill.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

And again, those examples have nothing to do with predators.

They do, as just *being* outside is a risk. TLD is not just about facing predator risk, in fact that is a small portion of it. TLD is more about the invisible supply lines human beings have grown soft in relying on, the grocery store, the doctor, heating etc. and being suddenly cut off from it. The dangers of mother nature herself, as a whole. predators play a partial role, but in reality, the conditions and scarcity of food and water is what TLD has always been about.

You die to wolves, yes, for sure. But I have also died from freezing, a lot. And starvation, and dehydration.

Besides, people in real life do not hunt wolves actively for survival. If they want meat to survive, they hunt for venison. I know you know that, so why were you so upset over deer being a primary resource/most motivating hunt to make, especially over wolves? It makes perfect sense.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Prepping blowfish requires specialized training(with license issued) on its own and takes years to master. And even then there are risks.

Kind of a funny but nerve-wracking story, had a friend of mine that knows nothing about fish catch one, prep it, cook it, and eat it. He had no idea and when he brought back photos my brother pointed out to him what is was and how lucky he was lol.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Youre comparing apples and oranges. One requires most basic thermal treatment, while other requires extensive knowledge and training. Its like comparing building sand castles on the beach with designing skyscrapers.

No, it's not. You either know how to cook something, or you don't. It is very, very simple. You either know chicken must reach an internal temperature of 71.1 degrees, or, you don't! It's about possessing knowledge and as far as I remember, you either know something, or you don't know something.

In a critical situation in which you *need* the knowledge, there is an adage I love-"thinking is poor thought." And it makes sense, "I think I know how to cook this" is basically saying "I don't really know for sure, but maybe I am right...?" No one wants to hear that from a cook, or a mechanic, or a brain surgeon. Believing you know something, is not as good as actually being sure you know something, like how to cook wolf meat. Guessing on what you're eating is not a good idea.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

And some more that has nothing to do with topic on hand.  And further bury own argument referring to how deer hunting is more profitable than fishing, with no mention on where predator hunting is on this scale. My guess would be somewhere on the bottom of the list, as it is completely not worth it, from any standpoint.

It has everything to do with the topic....

It is pointing out that your complaints were invalid. Fishing has its' own risk/reward and is not a broken as you presented it to be.

As far as predator hunting is concerned, you're damn straight it's at the bottom of MY list. I would think minimizing predator interaction when you're a lone human tends to increase your chances of surviving, which is the goal of this game, am I wrong?

In fact, when was the last time ever in TLD history that people did not fear wolves? Am I missing a memo here? If they're too weak for you, up the difficulty. Last time I'll mention it, on Interloper wolves will absolutely terminate you, no question, even if you're well armed just one attack is all it takes to end your run, either directly, or indirectly due to needing to treat your wounds. They are the "boogeymen" of TLD on that difficulty, believe me. I don't know anything about lower difficulties but they are brutal, which is the point.

Hinterland's only option is to either make more wolf craftables or to make the current coat god-tier, which means they would need to buff the bear-skin coat even more, if they are to make wolves a lot more valuable to hunt.

Removing parasites will do very, very little.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

You dont need to look for fish, chase it, shoot or fight it, skin it, gut it or quarter it(and possibly get stuck in the middle of nowhere in a blizzard), it doesnt have parasites and it also give you lamp oil.

I'll just leave this here...

On 6/9/2017 at 4:44 PM, Honor said:

It was INCREDIBLY costly to rely only on fishing in interloper, as you would need to, on most days due to weather use a match, and only collect maybe a day's worth of food (even with lvl 4 fishing deer hunting was more profitable, albeit more dangerous), plus you need to use a ton of firewood then get back to where you are need (sic) to sleep.

By the way, lamp oil is *ok,* it's nice and convenient, but when you have 23 matches, and only 4-5 hours of firewood, it's day 11, you've got your improvised gear and a bow with some arrows, it is way, way more profitable, although more dangerous to go hunting for deer. Much more food, plus you get guts.

But he may run towards a wolf. and some of him may get eaten if you don't immediately fight the wolf which is not acceptable to lose out on. High intensity situation, believe me.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

And again, those examples have nothing to do with predators.

And again, my point is predator interaction is where it should be right now-trying to avoid fighting them and dying. You know, like in an actual survival situation where you'd like to live.

20 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Are you serious ? If you were to hunt solely predators its exactly what you would be experiencing every time - facing off animal that are aggressive towards player. Deer, on the other hand, do not fight back. You keep on sinking own arguments by providing opposing facts.

Absolutely not and it is beyond ridiculous you'd even claim that. See above for example. Now who's comparing apples to oranges?

That situation is a completely different ball of wax than simply prepping to hunt a wolf *specifically,* because for one it comes as a surprise, two you risk losing meat, three you have probably been outside long enough that you've been freezing and have lost a considerable amount of condition (which wouldn't happen if you went for a wolf from the moment you left your cave or base etc.) and fourth, you're more likely to run into that situation in a real survival scenario than you are to wake up one day and say "Gee, I would really like to hunt a wolf right now despite being at risk of dying for it." Unless you need the pelt, who in the world would do that? Not me.

And just like in a real survival situation, you only hunt wolves for the pelt in TLD. It makes sense.

21 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

You keep on sinking own arguments by providing opposing facts.

You keep claiming that but seem to have no way of proving it.

For example, did you even know 99% of player simply bait wolves and shoot them in the face? It's pretty hilarious, and easy. If they made it so wolves had no parasites, *living* deer would be irrelevant, something you forgot to address apparently, or do you like conveniently omitting things you cannot argue against so you cherry-pick what is fitting to your point of view?

Once again, because it seems you conveniently omitted this, on my first run in TLD on Voyager I did not even interact with a living deer (unless for repair purposes, not food). Got bored and quit after about 140 days because all I did was hunt wolves until I got a bow and then I hunted wolves and bears for the rest of my playthrough. I would literally make a huge campfire and skin/cook the bear entirely. All of it. I had more food than I could reasonably eat.

All of my original deer gear came from corpses. I only ever wanted to kill one for a hide and some guts for repair, I did not need the meat as I was overstocked with bear and wolf meat, constantly.

I will reiterate-

On 6/9/2017 at 4:44 PM, Honor said:

There is 1 thing we agree on, the wolfskin coat is garbage for what you have to do to get it, I have screenshots on interloper of me comparing it to the expe parka and it's rather silly. I do think bear and wolf hide items should be extremely warm, they do live outside permanently, they don't only have +4 or +6 C ratings lol.

I get it. I know. We're on the same team with this.

But removing *very realistic and true to life* parasite risk will not help. Nerfing other hunting/survival methods is very, very bad. 

I think the value of the coat should increase. Everything else is fine, realistic, and exactly where it should be right now.

As I said before and I don't know why you did not acknowledge it-

On 6/9/2017 at 4:44 PM, Honor said:

crafted clothing suffers from this, ALL crafted clothing in interloper, as the temperatures are so incredibly brutal they barely help anyway.

I would say to add more value to the wolfskin coat it needs to intimidate at a higher rate and needs to be warmer.

I do agree that bearskin is also grossly underpowered as it only offers a tiny bit more warmth than the expedition parka but is way heavier.

Once again, i agree, the coat is terrible for what you have to do to get it, and it makes 0 sense that animals that survive absolutely brutal conditions 24/7 give such meager bonuses in warmth. It should change.

I just don't think parasites are a problem as they make sense. I don't think fishing is a problem because of some of the resource cost and eventual decay of how many you get. I don't think deer should change due it being realistic and still a risk.

I think rabbits need a bit of a change, maybe less kcal for their food, greater speed, and longer catch time in snares. The latter most would make the most sense, so they would not be a viable option to really increase calorie intake much and would also make it so you can just farm their guts as often.

Although on Interloper the catch times are already very long, to be honest.

[Dirmagnos]

5 hours ago, Honor said:

I literally do not need sources. It's a well known fact to anyone aware of what death brings that even if you just went to the bathroom every mammal empties its' bowels and bladder upon death, and there is always *something* that comes out, trust me. Residual fecal matter is not only common, but very, very normal. Go get a CAT scan of your intestines after pooping, you'll be shocked at how much is leftover. Even dying does not completely empty you out.

Now youre just avoiding issue by attempting to flip it. Nobody was disputing residual fecal matter in the intestines. Question was do wolves eat shit, to put it directly.

6 hours ago, Honor said:

Also, it seems you are ignorant to the well known fact among hunters that they do not eat wolf meat due to the possibility of parasites. Don't believe me? Go ask one. Wolves are also known to scavenge and eat rotting meat which would bring risk of parasites in their meat.

Ignorant ? Look whos talking. Hunters avoid eating wolf meat because its disgusting(altho even that depends on a lot of factors), not due to possibility of parasites. Being scavengers their meat reeks(but supposedly if person is willing to overlook that, like, i dont know, being in desperate situation and properly cook it, its quite ok). Main threat of parasites when dealing with wolf meat is trichinosis, that is killed by thoroughly cooking meat(this parasite may also be present also in pork and bear meat and same rules apply as with any other game). Hunters do not eat wolf meat not because its inedible, but because there are better alternatives. Go ask one yourself.

And eating rotten meat do not increase risk of parasites, as their development require living host.  Now youre just reaching.

6 hours ago, Honor said:

No, you can glance an arrow off of a wolf, and I have. You can fight a wolf with a knife, and it may not die. That has happened to me as well. And if you were to successfully hit a wolf with an arrow, it would die, most assuredly IRL. Wolves only weight about 35kg, maybe 45 if it is a huge wolf. And most people that have no medical training have no idea just how lethal an arrow puncture wound is.

Never seen it, arrow either struck wolf or misses is, but i never seen it ricochet off it. And so far every wolf i fought died. They may climb somewhere God only knows where, so you cant find it, but i never seen wolf recovering when i track it. Even after this update, with their AI being weird as shit, they always die in the end.

No, its not. Depending where you hit it with sad arrow it may go a hundred different ways. Especially when hit in the head, that in game kills wolf instantly, as irl arrow would lack force to penetrate skull. There is a reason why irl hunters aim for chest, to hit lungs, rather than head that may simply deflect arrow, not to mention being rather small target.

Wolf, relatively, small weight is also more beneficial for wolf, as it simply lacks mass to provide arrow with additional force of penetration, compared to same bear for example. Second or third law of motion, dont remember.

6 hours ago, Honor said:

They do, as just *being* outside is a risk. TLD is not just about facing predator risk, in fact that is a small portion of it. TLD is more about the invisible supply lines human beings have grown soft in relying on, the grocery store, the doctor, heating etc. and being suddenly cut off from it. The dangers of mother nature herself, as a whole. predators play a partial role, but in reality, the conditions and scarcity of food and water is what TLD has always been about.

Except that we are not talking about generalizations, but specific subject. Otherwise i could make logical chains that would connect whole debate to landing on the moon.

6 hours ago, Honor said:

Besides, people in real life do not hunt wolves actively for survival. If they want meat to survive, they hunt for venison. I know you know that, so why were you so upset over deer being a primary resource/most motivating hunt to make, especially over wolves? It makes perfect sense.

Hunting deer is easier and more rewarding. That wasnt the point. Plus, irl people mostly hunt for sport, not out of necessity.

6 hours ago, Honor said:

No, it's not. You either know how to cook something, or you don't. It is very, very simple. You either know chicken must reach an internal temperature of 71.1 degrees, or, you don't! It's about possessing knowledge and as far as I remember, you either know something, or you don't know something.

You either know how to build missiles or you dont. You either know how to pilot a plane or you dont. You say absolutely nothing. Its a simple exercise in tautology.

7 hours ago, Honor said:

It is pointing out that your complaints were invalid. Fishing has its' own risk/reward and is not a broken as you presented it to be.

You are pointing out that my arguments were invalid without providing any argumentation to support those claims. It just...is. Its same logical fallacy as your fist sentence. You say something, without any factual support, and expect people to take it on fate.

And what are exactly fishing risks/rewards that are comparable to hunting wolves ?

7 hours ago, Honor said:

As far as predator hunting is concerned, you're damn straight it's at the bottom of MY list. I would think minimizing predator interaction when you're a lone human tends to increase your chances of surviving, which is the goal of this game, am I wrong?

You managed to completely miss my point. Im not saying that hunting wolves should be same as hunting deer. I was saying that considering that effort, risks and resources involved in this activity, it is abysmal compared to hunting deer or fishing or stoning rabbits. Its completely out of balance in terms of gameplay comparing to those.

I dont care if you like to hunt wolves or avoid them life fire. I just want interacting with wolves to yield outcomes that would make spending resources on those interactions to be worth it. Eg, dangerous opponent yielding proportional reward. Instead we got something more along the lines of a nuisance - its not particularly strong, it not particularly rewarding, its not fitting in the big picture.

7 hours ago, Honor said:

If they're too weak for you, up the difficulty. Last time I'll mention it, on Interloper wolves will absolutely terminate you

I tried interloper, didnt really like it. While nature is rougher in it, which is great, everything else is total crap in this difficulty. Also, wolves in it are not that much tougher. They seem to be harder, but i had no problems taking on two of them in succession.

7 hours ago, Honor said:

But he may run towards a wolf. and some of him may get eaten if you don't immediately fight the wolf which is not acceptable to lose out on. High intensity situation, believe me.

Hunting by wolf is most profitable way of hunting. Chase deer towards wolf, who kills it and then kill wolf. Two for one.

7 hours ago, Honor said:

And again, my point is predator interaction is where it should be right now-trying to avoid fighting them and dying. You know, like in an actual survival situation where you'd like to live.

In an actual survival situation you would make full use of everything that comes you way. Even if result came from unwanted interaction. I dont hunt wolves on purpose, but if i do, id prefer it to be worth it.

7 hours ago, Honor said:

For example, did you even know 99% of player simply bait wolves and shoot them in the face? It's pretty hilarious, and easy. If they made it so wolves had no parasites, *living* deer would be irrelevant, something you forgot to address apparently, or do you like conveniently omitting things you cannot argue against so you cherry-pick what is fitting to your point of view?

I addressed those differences in depth. Most of that you just skipped.

7 hours ago, Honor said:

But removing *very realistic and true to life* parasite risk will not help. Nerfing other hunting/survival methods is very, very bad. 

Again, i addressed that as well. Starting from simple fact that wolves get those parasites from their prey and ending with another fact that thermal processing kills those parasites. In game however negatives associated with wolves are exaggerated, while positives omitted, and in reverse when dealing with deer(or fish, or rabbit).

[JAFO]

Just wanted to chip in to say I'm enjoying this debate.. carry on, gentlemen!

[Honor]

19 hours ago, JAFO said:

Just wanted to chip in to say I'm enjoying this debate.. carry on, gentlemen!

Carrying on only serves to derail the thread.

I've said my piece. We need carnivore pelt gear to be significantly warmer. No other changes are truly needed, in my opinion. Everything feels fine and balanced with the aforementioned exception.

I had a long refutation written, but I decided it does not serve anyone or anything well, as it only reiterates what I have already said. Cooking meats is a black and white skill area, not gray, and other forms of getting food has it's upsides and downsides (with the exception of rabbits now).

I think @Dirmagnos may not realize we are just debating for almost no reason, as I have stated I think crafted clothing needs a big buff, especially predator clothing. 

Wolf meat making people very sick and at risk of parasites is well-known and perhaps they should just rename it in game as a general stomach sickness of sorts. I know hunters very well and have hunters in my family that have tried and vomited up the stuff, and it made them very sick for a few days. In either case, not good food to have when you're alone in the winter wilds.

http://www.bphc.org/whatwedo/infectious-diseases/Infectious-Diseases-A-to-Z/Pages/Trichinosis.aspx

The risk comes from the fact that we do not know what internal temperatures the wolf meat comes to, seeing as we don't have a meat thermometer and manually made wood fires have varying temperatures.

I think a good compromise would be to force the player to bring the fire to a certain heat to make wolf meat safe. That way we have a choice to use a bit of extra fuel to heat up the fire, or not eat the meat. It's still a give/take situation which fits TLD nicely.

As for the thread topic I tried my hand at rabbit stoning. And, it is even easier than I thought. I got 6 in only 10 minutes. It's insane, probably about 3kcal in meat for almost no risk.

[Wasteland Watcher]

Read through this entire thread and though there were some good arguments on both sides it needs to be said that if you do not reference your sources then it makes your statement very difficult to take seriously. Statements like "everyone knows {something}" or "{Such and such} is common sense" actually do not prove anything at all except that you like your own opinion.
However, scientific references from educational or government organizations will help prove your point. If you don't have references because it's your own experience and if you really want to prove your point then provide ample documentation of your experience -- the same references as outlined by use of the scientific method .

And regarding statements such as  "x needs to be changed to make {something} more balanced/profitable/less OP." I completely disagree: everything in this game only needs to be changed to bring it as close to realism as possible. Calorie counts, difficulty or ease of accomplishment, weight and warmth provided -- it just needs to be as close as possible to real-world physics and mechanics. Regarding realism, specifically I am referring to Voyageur difficulty. For Pilgrim it should be easier, and of course for Stalker & Interloper it should be harder.

There are hundreds of other games out there that modify the game mechanics "for the sake of game balance." You know what? F*&# those games. The reason I came to The Long Dark was to get away from those games.
Again, for Voyageur I'd like to see it as a survival simulation experience -- realistic.
But do agree with skewing realism for added challenge, etc. for Stalker & Interloper.
 

[fallenfox]

I loved the stones and new rabbit hunting options. Although reading through the comments here, I think a lot of people would like to customise their game difficulty experience. Maybe have an option to create customised game experience:

Stones? Yes/no
Abundant rabbits? Yes/no
Spawn knives and hatchets? Yes/no
Infectious carnivore meat? Yes/no
Max skill capped at: 1/2/3/4/5
Realistic item deterioration?: yes/no
And so on...




 

[Dirmagnos]

@fallenfox Not "yes/no" but slider.

And custom difficulty is being discussed periodically. But devs ignore those requests.