Comparisons to my real-world experiences

[Perdex]

I'm from Finland and I've been in Lapland, northern Finland, hiking and skiing for tens of times. I absolutely love the idea of this game but I find it frustrating to play as it fails to model some of the aspects I find most important about surviving. I am also a programmer and I know some of the stuff is actually pretty trivial to implement and it'd be awesome if at least the easiest tweaks would come into the game. 

First off the two core mechanics, cold and energy, should be linked. Using calories should heat up your body. Not hard to implement: just make every calorie dropped from the total add a bit to the temperature meter. Obviously this needs the balance of environment cooling you down more but that's trivial to tweak. This would make running way more realistic as you would need to run at times to prevent hypothermia, which would make you more fatigued and make things even harder if you didn't find a good shelter. It would make the game feel way less frustrating as you could make a dash for the last few meters to shelter but would also make it hard as people would think "I can run the rest of the way there" when their stamina would actually not be enough.

This would also make another point way more realistic: usually you can be outside as long as you want to even at the colder weathers (I've done over 5-hour trips where the temp dropped to -35C at lowest spots (yes, the lower you go the colder it gets on clear days) and I was just fine) given that you have enough food and water and keep up a pace that is just enough to keep you warm but no more. Below -20C you can't really stop for long periods, you have to find a shelter for eating and resting your muscles (I'll discuss muscle fatigue later) but as long as you have snacks and water warm enough not to freeze (water temp could be an easy one to model too) you are just fine.

 

Then, the fact that all of the basic well-being measurements are in the form of one end equals good, other bad is quite naive. All of them should have middle as the best area and both ends should result in negative things, maybe as follows:

Temperature: too hot would make you fatigued a lot quicker (and sweat if/when clothing wetness is modeled) (heating yourself up inside would be a way of building a bank of extra heat for a short time at really cold weather)

Food: food shouldn't add to the calories instantly but over a shortish time period. Over this period you would be a bit more vulnerable to cold (IRL your stomach draws quite a bit of your blood to start processing the food which makes you feel cold for the next half an hour or so). Over-eating would result in slightly slower walking pace, increased fatigue development and maybe bad quality resting (less fatigue restored when sleeping). You would need to be able to say how much of a food to eat, say how many tenths.

Thirst: over-drinking can have same effects as drinking too little actually. Maybe increased fatigue but this wouldn't be so important one as you can drink little sips often quite easily.

Fatigue: this is a bit more difficult one but cabin fever could take oversleeping into account and maybe oversleeping could make your fatigue drop quicker for the next day or so. (Sleeping too much makes you more tired IRL but tiredness is complicated so this would be a good approximation)

 

Lastly muscle fatigue: Now running makes you more sleepy which isn't very realistic (well it makes you a tiny bit more tired but anyways). It'd be a midway point between running stamina (short of breadth) and fatigue (sleepiness-fatigue, which is actually your brain getting tired, not your body). So it'd get lower quicker by running but stay the same when walking and slowly rise when in place. This would make it so that you could run to another shelter, then be a couple of hours there cooking, crafting and resting ("passing time") and you could continue. This would make the day-night -cycle WAY more realistic as now after running you have to sleep and then you wake up at the night and can't do anything. So fatigue would be effected less by other stuff and more by just time spent awake. You could still stay awake until late night when necessary, but then fatigue would start slowing you down and making your life more difficult. I think you hate running a bit too much: it (or fast walking) isn't that deadly in cold conditions when you will be able to get indoors later.

This brings us to another point that MIGHT be a good idea too, even though I can see it being a bit too complicated to come people's liking (maybe only for harder difficulties? Maybe an integrated mod?): muscle soreness. It is a big factor in the real world. High muscle fatigue would raise it and high soreness would lead to slower muscle fatigue restoring and higher accumulation of it. Also the place you sleep in would affect this: a bed restoring it quickly (high soreness still needing 2-3 days to restore) and sleeping on snow/hard floor would only slowly restore it or even accumulate it if it was on low levels before. (Just realized these would not need a balanced meter but one-end-is-good -meter and I'm being a bit inconsistent  )

And, as a side note, the weather in northern Finland is quite a bit different as it is way higher up north than places of same temp in Canada (I was in north-western Ontario on exchange so been there too). Mostly the sun has way less effect on the temp and so temp differences between night and day are smaller. The biggest difference might be that clear days are almost always the coldest as the clear night before has dropped the temp and the sun doesn't really help out. Clouds keep the warmth in the atmosphere and cloudy days are warmer. In Canada the clear mornings are just as cold but it warms up way better. Cloudy and even stormy days however aren't that cold anywhere, which is definitely backwards in the game as the blizzards seem the coldest times.

[toebar]

I like your idea with regard to the temperature scale, where too warm is bad as well.

With regards to the temperatures, I agree that you are correct generally about the temperature being coldest on clear days/nights... but, there are certainly plenty of blizzards in some parts of Canada that are combined with very cold temperatures.

In game, it seems that there is more to the temperature than we know about--- the temperatures are generally colder than they should be, based on the general game location on the southern portion of the west coast of Canada.  So, whether the temperatures are just inaccurate (or exaggerated by the developers), or perhaps there is a plot-related reason that the temperature are out of the the ordinary for the area, it is hard to say.   Either way, this could override the realistic way that temperatures should work.

[Dirmagnos]

When player eats, instead of instantly filling bar it is done over time, depending on food, 3-5 hours. During that time he gets a small bonus to warmth but also small penalty to movement and tiredness gain if hes moving. With optimal "fulfillment" area being between 25% and 75%, anything below or above that start giving lesser bonuses and greater penalties.

[Perdex]

46 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

 it is done over time, depending on food, 3-5 hours.

That's my mistake, it must be a new-ish update? I actually played the game more in January and February, just returning to it now which got me annoyed over some things. The thing that annoys me the most is the fact that running is just bad in every aspect which makes the game a bit of a walking simulator. And cloth wetness would be a big one too, ad you would have to have spare cloths in the long term so you could leave the other set drying by a fire.

[Dirmagnos]

1 hour ago, Perdex said:

That's my mistake, it must be a new-ish update? I actually played the game more in January and February, just returning to it now which got me annoyed over some things. The thing that annoys me the most is the fact that running is just bad in every aspect which makes the game a bit of a walking simulator. And cloth wetness would be a big one too, ad you would have to have spare cloths in the long term so you could leave the other set drying by a fire.

Nah, its just an idea on top of your idea, based on real life values, less time for vegetarian foods, up to 3 hours and more time for "heavier fuel" like meat.

Running and tiredness are extremely iffy at the moment and causing a lot of controversy. But there has been quite some discussion on topic of companions, dogs in particular, with quite real possibility of skijoring if things will go thru... and sleds.

Wetness is another rather interesting issue that had plenty of arguments thrown around, so far without much consensus.

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @Perdex!

And yes, there is definitely room for tweaking still. However, there is already a +1C warmth bonus in the game for when you sprint. You normally can't see it though since most people stop when checking their status.

[terryt3535]

I have previously mentioned that a sub-3 hour marathoner is comfortable at 2°C in clothes that most people wear to the office (18°C  to 20°C). When I go out on long walks in the morning, I don't put on anything heavier than shorts and a light t-shirt unless it is below 13°C. Running ought to be at least a 4°C bonus and very noticeable.

[sodiumlitskies]

On 8/17/2016 at 0:50 PM, Perdex said:

Fatigue: this is a bit more difficult one but cabin fever could take oversleeping into account and maybe oversleeping could make your fatigue drop quicker for the next day or so. (Sleeping too much makes you more tired IRL but tiredness is complicated so this would be a good approximation

New member checking in — played since February, have loved the game — nothing else like it, really enjoy it, etc. The thing I've been thinking about the most and my primary reason for joining was to add this — 

I was fascinated by the introduction of the cabin fever. I think it's a good idea to get players outside and have to play the game, but probably like others, I think that a hard "can't sleep indoors" mechanic is unrealistic.

I searched the forums for the best place to post on this subject, and I have to say that I like so much what @Perdex has to say. I am an indoorsy city slicker, but I really appreciated reading the experiences and suggestions of a serious outdoorsman.

Anyway, here's my idea.

Suggestion: Swap the cabin fever mechanic for a lethargy or depression mechanic

Causes: Insufficient time or calories spent while outdoors, insufficient exposure to sunlight; I know the sleep mechanic has changed, but I think players should still be able to sleep if fully rested (we've all done it) at the risk of developing lethargy, possibly with untreated or persistent lethargy leading to depression (with more serious consequences)

Consequences: Not all great ideas, but I wanted to come up with as many ideas as I could

• Reduced stamina or stamina capped at "winded" or something (lethargy, Perdex's idea)
• Chance to oversleep (lethargy, Perdex's idea)
• Insomnia: Chance of failure to sleep; inability to sleep after failure for 1 or 2 hours; poorer sleep (reduced recovery)
• Increased time required to perform all activities
• Shorter sprint and climbing bar
• Overeating or loss of appetite: increased rate of hunger or inability to eat until famished
• No gameplay consequences, but for immersion, characters could utter things suggesting apathy, despair, a poor outlook

Remedies: Exposure to sunlight; distance traveled, calories burned while outdoors with a bonus for time spent performing outdoorsy activities (cutting branches and limbs, fishing, harvesting animals, sleeping outdoors); maybe an instant remedy if attacked by wildlife or fall through ice (near death experiences!)

I realize that a lot of this may have been suggested elsewhere, but I had to get this off my chest! Really impressed how open this studio is to fan feedback!

[MueckE]

I like the ideas, but the main question is how changes, in that regard, would contribute to the gameplay? See, there is a reason why shooter like CoD, CS or Battlefield are so popular, and that is not because they are "realistic". Today it is possible to make a shooter with a realistic weapon handling, bullet drop, wind, no map, enemies you can't see and so on - but nobody would want to play that. Because you play a game to play a game, not to just copy the real world. What i mean is, a game should be authentic, immersive and should provide a consistent world/enviroment, but that has nothing to do with realism. Hinterland does not communicate with the community so well as others. Check out "Warhorse Studios" and their game Kingdom Come Deliverance. They try to be as "realistic" as "possible" with their setting. When you listen what they say about the aspect of realism and gaming, you will understand what i mean. 

 

So, how do your suggestions would change the gameplay? Will it make more fun to play the game after? What about the balance? Would it actually fit into the setting of the long dark?, and how exactly? At the moment, the cold is the main feature of the long darks gameplay - with these kind of changes the weather wouldn't be such a big deal. This means it would create a total diffrent game. What is your concept about that? and so on .....

[Calico Jack]

This is a great thread! I totally agree with everything previous posters have said, especially where the connection between calorie burn and core temperature is concerned. I'm no programmer, but I would imagine modelling changes to basal metabolic rate over time would be a pretty easy thing to do as well.

Insofar as comparison with other real world experience is concerned, the only element of player performance in the game that strikes a jarring note for me is rope climbing. I've said elsewhere that I understand that the game isn't a simulator, but all other aspects of physiological performance are pretty accurately modeled with the exception of this one. For what's it's worth, here's my take on it:

Climbing rope has as much to do with technique as it does with strength and local muscular endurance. Climbing a free-hanging rope is actually easier than using a rope to ascend a vertical surface - like, WAY easier. That said, climbing thirty feet or so of free-hanging rope with less than 10kg of clothing and equipment is as much as most elite combat soldiers are expected to do. Contrary to popular perception, most of the strength for the climb comes from your lower core and legs, while your arms provide stability. If your leg technique is good, you can 'lock off' and take a break during the climb. That said, even guys in absolute peak condition are close to their lactic threshold after thirty feet or so and need whatever they've got left for a controlled descent (I've overlooked that part before and have the x-rays to prove it).

Climbing hand-over-hand while walking up a vertical or near-vertical surface (which is what I'm assuming is represented in-game) wouldn't give you that option. Pretty much your entire bodyweight would be supported by your arms while your legs and core are pretty much just keeping you horizontal. Climbing in the game seems to be the player using this technique to climb a hundred feet or so of vertical rock and ice. To my mind, that's totally unfeasible, and it sits completely at odds with all the other representations of physical performance in the game, which seem pretty damn realistic in comparison. In fact, the only time I've seen anyone climb rope like that are these dudes...

(I'm speaking as a former soldier with hopefully just enough experience fast roping, rappelling and climbing ropes to comment. I'm not a technical climber, and I'm a crappy mountaineer, so it would be interesting to get the perspective of someone from that kind of background)

[ChillPlayer]

I am with @MueckE with this. While it would certainly be possible to add more "realism" to the game I hardly doubt it would make it more fun to play, on the contrary I think it would turn the game into Survival Simulator without inducing the stress a survival situation can cause. Because for all the lack of realism in TLD the game does one thing perfectly well: it portrays the "meta" experience of survival better than any other game.

What I mean by this, although you have to survive by simpler means in TLD than in real life, the thought process and decision making the game forces onto the player is very similar to a "real" survival situation. It's about getting your priorites right, plan for the worst, hope for the best and so on. I've read a book about the psychology of survival some time ago and I was fascinated when I recognized myself playing TLD in the description of what real Survivors have told about their thinking and state of mind.

Remember, when we play TLD we are usually at home, warm and comfy with a full stomach and don't have to worry about water, cabin fever or food poisoning (usually, might not all apply to folks from Michigan ). The games job is to tear us out from our comfort zone and put our brains into survival mode and I think hinterland has quite nailed this with TLD. With Interloper the screwes have tightend once more, during test phase and now I often have real sweat on my forehead and on one occasion I had to pause the game because my heart was pounding so hard. If a game manages to do this while I am at home infront of my pc I can only attest one thing to the developers: job well done!

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @sodiumlitskies!

[starfighter441]

On 9/24/2016 at 10:44 AM, Calico Jack said:

This is a great thread! I totally agree with everything previous posters have said, especially where the connection between calorie burn and core temperature is concerned. I'm no programmer, but I would imagine modelling changes to basal metabolic rate over time would be a pretty easy thing to do as well.

Insofar as comparison with other real world experience is concerned, the only element of player performance in the game that strikes a jarring note for me is rope climbing. I've said elsewhere that I understand that the game isn't a simulator, but all other aspects of physiological performance are pretty accurately modeled with the exception of this one. For what's it's worth, here's my take on it:

Climbing rope has as much to do with technique as it does with strength and local muscular endurance. Climbing a free-hanging rope is actually easier than using a rope to ascend a vertical surface - like, WAY easier. That said, climbing thirty feet or so of free-hanging rope with less than 10kg of clothing and equipment is as much as most elite combat soldiers are expected to do. Contrary to popular perception, most of the strength for the climb comes from your lower core and legs, while your arms provide stability. If your leg technique is good, you can 'lock off' and take a break during the climb. That said, even guys in absolute peak condition are close to their lactic threshold after thirty feet or so and need whatever they've got left for a controlled descent (I've overlooked that part before and have the x-rays to prove it).

Climbing hand-over-hand while walking up a vertical or near-vertical surface (which is what I'm assuming is represented in-game) wouldn't give you that option. Pretty much your entire bodyweight would be supported by your arms while your legs and core are pretty much just keeping you horizontal. Climbing in the game seems to be the player using this technique to climb a hundred feet or so of vertical rock and ice. To my mind, that's totally unfeasible, and it sits completely at odds with all the other representations of physical performance in the game, which seem pretty damn realistic in comparison. In fact, the only time I've seen anyone climb rope like that are these dudes...

(I'm speaking as a former soldier with hopefully just enough experience fast roping, rappelling and climbing ropes to comment. I'm not a technical climber, and I'm a crappy mountaineer, so it would be interesting to get the perspective of someone from that kind of background)

And those dudes are actually walking horizontally, you can see the strings holding Robin's cape up...

Just trying to get back into this game again, I still hate the pass time thing, and suddenly I'm a rookie when it comes to doing anything.  If I could keep the improved graphics, and turn the gameplay back to say April, I'd be very happy.

 

[Calico Jack]

11 hours ago, starfighter441 said:

And those dudes are actually walking horizontally, you can see the strings holding Robin's cape up...

Wait. What?