a random map idea

[togg]

5 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Yes I do want some things changed with how you interact with wolves.. I think its not done very well in its current state.. but what does that have to do with random maps and you not being able to post about random maps?

 

I can't search quote from the devs, but if you play the game you will notice that they seems to care a lot about strong level design, something is random but in a strong layout. It seems to me that this is a survival game that rised *against* the procedural generated stuff. And I love it for this reason, but that doesn't matter.

Again, I don't think this is the right videogame. And I don't mean it's the perfect one, I totally understand that after a certain amount of hours it will become boring, videogames don't last forever

[dbldrew]

3 hours ago, togg said:

I can't search quote from the devs, but if you play the game you will notice that they seems to care a lot about strong level design, something is random but in a strong layout. It seems to me that this is a survival game that rised *against* the procedural generated stuff. And I love it for this reason, but that doesn't matter.

Again, I don't think this is the right videogame. And I don't mean it's the perfect one, I totally understand that after a certain amount of hours it will become boring, videogames don't last forever

So you dont want a random map made because you assume that the devs dont want a random map made? The devs dont want you to give feedback and tell them what you think they want to hear. They want feedback from you on what you actually like and dislike about the game.

And dont forget the devs made sandbox just as a test bed and it was never intended to be part of the game.. up until the point that they changed there minds because of feedback. The devs only where going to have 3 hardness levels.. up until the point that they made interloper because of the feedback they got.

[Willkwi]

This is neat, but it takes a lot of effort, and I mean a LOT, to do right. I'd prefer to get more personal, handcrafted, quality maps, as well as the story episodes.

[RCCross]

i know that open map is on it's way

but I like the idea of random houses/shelters.

Every start, let's say, the barn has 3 possible states: normal, burned/wrecked, absent.

So it's not like it would spawn somewhere else, but always in the same place, but when you want to get to "that" special place it might just not be there.

[Cog]

+1 for a procedure generated map.

I know that devs always make quality map design in this game but after a while the maps can be learnt and the navigation is much easier. It could be fun a game mode where a different size (adjustable) map is generated with hills, lakes etc and you have to go from point A (e.g. from a broken car) to point B (e.g. a radio tower). The start and end points of course would be randomized.

 

 

[Mroz4k]

Skimming over the comments.

Generally a good idea, my issue though is that the random flat areas randomly spawned would give very unnatural, immersion breaking aspect to the game.

As most players noted, the game has 2-3 different sets assigned to most places - for example the Office Cabin in ML has about three different sets of interior - some will spawn the dead guy, some dont. This is true for most places in the game.

And yes, there is something like degradation to the more custom houses - when they may or may not be burnt down.

I get your point about the map - but even if this was "randomized", there would still have to be some basic rules, something that would prevent game spawns where in one location, you have 10 sets with houses, and in another one, there are none. Once you play the game a lot, you would still notice that in some spots, there are more likely to be particular sets - so, the whole point of having things randomized would still be pointless. Besides, the fact that its custom built also means they can control locations so that no ideal locations can be found. There is always something missing in the vicinity. With random spawn, ideal bases could spawn easily. Somewhere where you have beachcombing, fishing and even forge close-by to a house with good bed, security, workbench and indoor fire option.

And I dont have much of a problem with the fact that people will learn where what is. But, there are few ways we could still add more "degradation" to the game:

1. More then 3 different sets. Like, 7 would give you a completedly random feeling - ranging from minor changes to some really hardcore ones.

for example, there could be a setting for custom game - world degradation" - and with the high settings, even places like Camp Office could be found ruined. Or at least very poorly habitable - like with Mountaineers, it would have damaged roof and interior would be cold. As long as there is a chance of entire "good locations" being compromised, the knowledge of where to go for individual 

2. more world degradation that makes certain paths impossible. Like, for example, the train tresle would spawn collapsed. This cuts off ML and Coastal through Ravine, but you can still travel there through PV. Caves could be collapsed, forcing players to take detours.

3. Someone once suggested that certain locations would be found looted. Like, getting into the Dam to find out someone ravaged it before and left only really little of resources behind, that got tucked away under tables and such. Would be immersive, and it would make relying on certain spots for loot punishable. Like pushing yourself to get looted up at Dam only to find out that there is nothing there.

I would rather see these then some randomized sets, but I wouldnt mind the randomized sets if they were done well.

[Mroz4k]

14 hours ago, Revantulet said:

There never has been a game more perfectly suited to a random map generator.  I mean the game is basically pretty random anyway with only a few specified loot locations which kinda ruin the exploration.

What??!

How long have you played the game for? Its not, at all, suited for random map generator. Not in the slightest. The world is 100% stationary, there are set locations and the locations do change but only in a very small way.

The way the game is made makes it very, very hard to make it randomly generated - in fact, most survival games dont have it because randomly generated maps tend to be really, really unrealistic - this is not a problem in some games, like Minecraft, but in TLD, it would instantly murder the immersion, and this game is all about immersion.

The truth is this game is not suited for a random map generator at all. That is why I think it would have to go a different way.

14 hours ago, Revantulet said:

Just make a lonely road running through random terrain with random clumps of buildings along the road.  Place rivers lakes and streams.  The rivers flow out of the mountains to the sea.

 

Ugh. That would be lame, on so many levels, and I know I am not the only one who thinks that. Game is linear enough, but at some point, you would realize that you are walking down a never ending road which just gives you this unrealistic feeling. 

And finally, this would take ton of development and mainly graphical work. For the kind of garbage experience it would give in the end, this is definitedly not worth the work.

One thing that cannot be touched at all - is the regions. They have to stay the same.

My idea of "randomly generated maps" would mean that all the regions were "cut" into different "plots" - like 4-8 plots per region - and these "plots" would all have 6-7 different "landspace" choices. There would be some basic objectives - like "there has to be two settlements, 1 mountain and 1 lake spawned in a region" - but depending on which "plot" it spawned upon, the region would look very different each time.

To give an example: Mystery lake - If we were to separate it into 6 different spots - lets assume that the Dam would spawn like like it always does. But, the actual Mystery lake with Lake cabin would spawn in the middle of the map, instead of the mountain where Forestry lookout is. The Lookout would spawn in the place of Trappers cabin.  The Trappers cabin would spawn in the place of original Mystery lake - but it would also look completedly different. Instead of a hill with a house above an ice plain, it would  spawn like a house, on the side of a ravine, with rope leading down and a car crashed down there, for example.

These "plots" would be irregular, but they would all be seemingly connected - and because there would be several different types of individual plots and they would be switched around some, it would give the player an idea that the whole map is randomly generated, because the individual maps would all look majorly different.

BUT

This means a crapton of additional development and mainly graphical work, for something that may very well in the end look non immersive, anyways. Its a huge risk that I personally dont think is worth it.

 

[Revantulet]

+1 For random maps.

They don't have to be totally random.  They can be made of modular tiles designed to fit togather intelligently.  Each tile could be lovingly made, but with random zones.

 

And why would this be so hard to do?  Use the existing maps as templates.

 

for instance imagine if Hibernia was a coastal town instead.  What if the lighthouse were on jackrabbit island?  What if connecting these zones were two stretches of highway.  The plane crash could be on CH.. Or the Ricken could be there.  Forlorn Muskrave could have a long roadway instead of a railway with abandoned cars along its length...

When you reach the broken bridge at DP you find a way around it and the road turns north along the coastline.  Cliffs slope up to your left and the frozen ocean is to your right.  There are fishing villages along the road as you head north.  How would this simple map extension hurt the "narrative"

I get it that the Hinterlandians wouldn't want new players to miss out on the carefully balanced maps in favor of the random maps and have a worse experience, but this could be easily avoided by having these extended areas only unlock after the player has visited every area in the base game.

 

 

Im not saying you chuck the core maps -- I'm saying EXTEND the core maps with random tiles that let you go beyond the current borders.   Vets who know the core maps can loot them dry and then head off into a new unknown.

i can't believe this would be that tricky for these guys to pull off.  --not like introducing a new mechanic like Owles hunting mice for instance.

Civillization has like 6 different map tiles and millions of new worlds have been experienced by rearranging them. This game isn't trying to model a certain area on Earth.  It's a completely arbitrary collection of beautiful areas that could be rearranged easily with no loss in beauty or challenge.

 

this is a no brainer

 

 

[Revantulet]

2 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

What??!

How long have you played the game for? Its not, at all, suited for random map generator. Not in the slightest. The world is 100% stationary, there are set locations and the locations do change but only in a very small way.

Well, I've played the game for 278 hours.  Also I've easily spent 21 hours reading tips on the forums and watching YouTube videos -- so about 300 hours experience.   Does that entitle me to have an opinion in your book?  I personally think the equivalent of two solid weeks of 24hr a day game play does.  I plan to sink another 2,000 hours into this and have no plans to ever play story mode.   I'm here for the sandbox.

 

And -- as a sandbox -- the "set locations" really have no significance at all.  How would the gameplay experience at all be harmed if the Ricken were out beached on Jackrabbit island, the lighthouse was out on the edge of Hibernia, misanthropes homestead was out where the lighthouse is, and Hibernia was where the gas station in CH is.  It might not be quite as cool as it is now -- granted -- but how is any of this static placement of Mao elements vital or sacrosanct?

what if crumbling highway were twice as long, but had half as many wolves?  How would that affect the game?

 It would only make it better.  Knowing EXACTLY what I'm facing on crumbling highway --- EXACTlY how far I must sprint to escape the wolves there -- how is that good?

crumbling highway is from my point of view totally RANNDOM.  There was no logic I could employ to tell me that on the other side of that mine would be this particular stretch of road.   The first time I encountered it  the place was totally random.

if they removed crumbling highway totally and the map from DP just connected directly to CH would it beak the game?  How?

Ive avoided random starts because after a few on interloper I realized you can't live without map knowledge at the very start and I didn't want to ruin the exploration experience by running around aimlessly dying until I amassed enough map knowledge to make a bee line for safety -- like every vet does.

 

But on several tries in PV I can tell you I saw nothing that had any particular significance.  I started in a ravine with rabbits.  I followed the cat tails to a road.  I went left and followed the road over a bridge until I froze to death.  Next run I went right at the road and found a ruins barn or shed with a few walls missing and a corpse.     Wolves were everywhere and I tried staying out of the wind and still froze to death.  The next time I struck off overland and found s lake and a fishing line in a hut.  It broke while fishing and I froze to death.

The lake had no river flowing to it -- there was no logic there.   The broken down barn had nothing else near it -- it could have fallen from the moon.  It could have been ANYWHeRE on that road and made absolutely just as much sense as it made right where it was.   

I see absolutely no sacredness no untouchable--ness no VALUE whatsoever to the sandbox for having that particular barn there every time I play.

[Mroz4k]

On 30. 12. 2017 at 3:57 PM, Revantulet said:

Well, I've played the game for 278 hours.  Also I've easily spent 21 hours reading tips on the forums and watching YouTube videos -- so about 300 hours experience.   Does that entitle me to have an opinion in your book?  I personally think the equivalent of two solid weeks of 24hr a day game play does.  I plan to sink another 2,000 hours into this and have no plans to ever play story mode.   I'm here for the sandbox.

Apologies. I did not intend to offend your game experience. But I was oddly surprised that you would claim all these things, when they are, in fact, quite the opposite. The sandbox was, and still is, very linear - there is almost no room for any sort of "randomness" to the map beside the individual locations, varying a bit.

 

On 30. 12. 2017 at 3:57 PM, Revantulet said:

And -- as a sandbox -- the "set locations" really have no significance at all.  How would the gameplay experience at all be harmed if the Ricken were out beached on Jackrabbit island, the lighthouse was out on the edge of Hibernia, misanthropes homestead was out where the lighthouse is, and Hibernia was where the gas station in CH is.  It might not be quite as cool as it is now -- granted -- but how is any of this static placement of Mao elements vital or sacrosanct?

Because those places are exactly where they are supposed to be - they make sense there. You said it yourself - if they were scrambled around randomly, they would not make so much sense. And that would be a huge immersion killer.

On top of that, if Rikken got, for example, beached out where the Jackrabbit is, than that would immediately turned into a perfect location. Jackrabbit is already almost perfect base... by putting forge there, you would perfect it. That influences the game a lot more then you would think. Not to mention it makes no sense at all, why would a big whaling ship ever get so close to the gulf that is the Coastal highway? 

Besides, how would that help at all with the things you expect from a randomized map? You literally used the exact locations like before, only jumbled up the pre-set locations in between then randomly. This wouldn't have any effect - players would still know where to go, they would simply not know what they would find there.

And finally, what you suggest would take INCREDIBLE amount of work - if for example Misanthropes replaced the lighthouse, then the actual "world" would have to be re-shaped in that way - the hills would have to change too. 

So, it would hardly be randomized - simply the "locations" would be chosen in between different variations. Now, there could be hundreds of variations of regions by the method you proposed. But either they would have to completedly rebuild all regions for these individual variations (riddiculous amount of extra work) or they would all appear strange, unnaturaly. It is not just a matter of where that location is, but how it looks in that landscape.

That is why I said, this game is linear and offers only very little randomness as a setting.

What you suggest is incredible undertaking, for a very lame result in the end, which would be immersion disruptive. And game balance disruptive as well, considering the possibility of ideal base spawns.

[Revantulet]

Well thanks for the apology, and no hard feelings.

We seem to be at an impasse.  I disagree with most of what you are saying and feel like we are also talking past each other to some extent.

Im not saying scrap the original map.  It's a great map.  I'm suggesting that other great maps could be (somewhat) randomly generated to greatly expand the game.

I also do not see why things are "exactly where they are supposed to be."  This argument makes no sense to me at all.  The broken down church -- for instance -- sometimes has great stuff in it and sometimes has nothing .  The fact that I always know exactly to go right there to check that spot isn't a good thing.

The maps aren't "balanced."  Everyone has looted whole regions and found jack squat some maps and other maps gotten amazing gear.  Your point about the Riken being on jackrabbit is valid because it has a forge.  But you never addressed the other half dozen examples I gave of things that don't matter at all.  

These guys could easily design a set of map templates that didn't offend you; I'm sure of it.  

Imagine this:  

At the edges of these templates would be flat fields of a uniform altitude so that they would all fit together.  Let's keep it real simple for a minute and say no roads railroads or coastline.  No cars, trailers or special buildings like the lighthouse or the Riken.  Just wilderness.  You might find a frozen hiker out there or maybe a ranger station very very rarely and only one station per map.  Maybe a couple cabins.  Mostly it would be hills and ravines, fields and forests, streams and lakes.  There would be caves and game trails AND tons of vast wilderness!!

Do you know how much this would enhance the immersion and majesty of this sandbox -- knowing that after you've looted everything and conquered TWM that you could just keep going into the great unknown?!?!

People would LOVE the freedom to head off into a limitless world!!!  

Hell a a map of just PURE forest would be awesome with streams and caves.  A huge forest.  But you don't know it's a huge forest until you map it, do you?

now I believe that the random tiles could be much more ambitious than just simple variations on wilderness.  I think they could develop templates for coastline and roads and little towns along the roads that would be logical and beautiful and non game breaking.

But if all they did was have random rolling hills and forests that would add SO SO much to the feeling of being in a real world, and I don't believe it would take much in the way of development resources.

How would having a huge forest north of the Timberwolf mountain map be immersion breaking?

Please answer that question if you are going to continue to argue against random maps, because I really feel that THAT is the point I am trying to make and not all the other stuff we keep getting into about the existing maps.

North of Timberwolf is a vast forest with random caves and other minor terrain variations. The alternative is what we have now -- nothing there.  You can't go there, and you know there s nothing there and never will be.  How is nothing being there more immersive than the huge forest?