The heart of The Long Dark

[Razum]

Hi fellow survivors,

I just read a post from over a year ago with the same name in the german section of the forum and it created the spark to write this post. It's a pretty long one, not many people are gonna read it in full, but it comes from my heart.

I came to TLD during covid and learned to love this game. I binged the story mode and in survival I played Interloper for a while, always dying before day 20. I liked the uncertainty of it. I liked the feeling of pushing harder to survive, but knowing, I couldn't really control it. But soon I learned more and more about the maps and every new start became just a repetition of a run before. Starting in HRV/TWM or some sort, having spawned there countless times, going the same route to get to the nearby region, because there was not much to find in the spawning regions. Yes, I could have changed the route and have a different experience, but that would just lead to a faster death. Recently I started playing Stalker and began to enjoy much more the beauty of the game and started exploring more. But it's just a different game. No fighting for survival, no uncertainty. You pretty much go, wherever you want. But it's ok. Hinterland made a great game and I haven't found any other survival game that's that good (there's Project: Zomboid, that can maybe compete, but it's still completely different and I haven't played it much).

That for where I come from and what my experience is. So the following is obviously written from a survival TLD perspective, not from a enjoying the view perspective. I know that there are people playing TLD for exploration in Pilgrim, no problem with that.

Now to the real concern: Why don't the core mechanics stop getting some love from Hinterland? Let me differentiate how I mean that. I don't ignore the animations for harvesting and other stuff with the new models depending on what you're wearing. That's really cool. But I have the feeling (and the author of the other thread too), that Hinterland forgets the stuff, that is the heart of The Long Dark. The stuff, that makes it so different from other games. These things are very well addressed in existing mods. I don't even like TLD that much without these mods, because they change stuff, that is not much to implement, but once you play with it, it makes just so much more sense. Some examples:

• Hunger Revamped makes Hibernation impossible, as you need to consume a certain amount of calories over a few days, not just some cat tail stalks before going to sleep. This is implemented by just one variable more, that represents your saved calories.
• Bleeding Revamped makes animals bleed more, when you hit them multiple times.
• Better Fuel/Water management make it so that fuel canisters and water bottles don't appear and disappear as needed, you need to find containers in the world.
• Non-Op Torches makes it impossible to just pull tons of torches out of a fire to daisy chain it. Fire Pack adds a bow drill as a renewable way to start a fire and a tinder can to transport ember. It just makes so much more sense.

The problem is, all these mods get broken when a new TLD version comes out, until the creators repair it. I'm still waiting for Hunger Revamped to get updated. But this mod discussion misses the main point. Here comes the point: Wolves in TLD are boring. They aren't really a lingering thread. They just appear sometimes, you do what you do (just walk away, or go somewhere they can't reach and aim at them so they run away or you have some fire and aim at the so they run away. Instead of some overhaul of that we get a new animal - the cougar - that is just that overhaul I wished to see in wolves. Instead of some more realistic hunger mechanic (like in Hunger Revamped) we get a new set of cooking tools, recipes and stuff, that ... well I don't, haven't done anything with it so far.

TL;DR: Why are there just so many more features added and the existing mechanics pretty much remain in alpha state?

It's not meant as a harsh critique, the game is fine and Hinterland can do whatever it wants. But I just want to sincerely express my wish for how it should be.

In the following I want to get into more detail, for how I feel some core mechanics could be updated:

Needs

Currently there are four variables and some modifiers (afflictions). These are implemented in a very direct and straight forward way. If you do this, this happens. If you stay in cold until the hypothermia risk meter hits 100%, you get hypothermia, if you get into warm at 99%, you don't and freeze an hour later again, without having a 40%/h condition loss. If you are starving (hunger meter at 0%), you loose 1%/h condition, which you can regenerate when eating some cat tail stalks before sleeping. The wiki says, not eating for a day will affect the maximum sleep meter value you can get, but that's something that never happened to me.

My wish would be an overhaul of the needs system, so that is more dynamic overall. Having not eaten much for some days should have a effect overall. Having not drunken for half a day should already affect about everything. Being freezing shouldn't allow you to walk around like 2h no matter what temperature it is. You can actually die in some minutes from freezing.

Tools

In every interloper run the first thing main thing to do is to find the hammer. With it you can go to a forge to get the hatchet, the knife and some arrow heads. These are the things you need to survive (hunting, sometimes harvesting stuff). And there's no other way to get it in Interloper. That's why every run is pretty much the same. You will start systematically searching for the hammer (beneath other things to survive) and then go to the forge, probably in Forlorn Muskeg. In Stalker and below you will just find these things (rifle for arrows), so that isn't that strict. In any case, you will find that stuff eventually, so don't worry. That's the point, you don't have to worry. That's the opposite of what TLD is about. It should be uncertain, if you can find what you need. You should need to use what you have. It should be uncertain, whether this or that is the right decision. It should be uncertain, if/how long you can survive. But it isn't. You have this semi fixed route where you know you are gonna find every tool eventually.

What I wish for is a) more randomness, stretching even as far as some of these tools not even spawning at all (or just once, so you may be lucky to find them at all). That would mean, that there must be other ways to achieve the same (but with more effort). Like improvised hatchet instead of finding a real one. Make the heavy hammer craftable (or make a 'light' one), which makes forging slower and breaks faster. Fire hardened arrow are a good step in my opinion.

Fire Starting

Well, it's to simple. You press a button and it works or it doesn't. After lvl 3 you don't even need tinder. Make it more complex, involving more decisions. Like preparation (taking time to chop the wood into smaller pieces) or how much tinder to use. Add a bow drill or something similar. Add ember box or something similar. And please remove the ability to just pull out torches from the fire. Make it a burning stick instead, that burns for a few minutes or something and can't be reignited.

Weather

The atmosphere in TLD is great, but the weather is just a state machine. It switches from this to that, feathered by some transition. It should be more dynamic, more in in-between states. There's this topic: https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/39943-using-wind-direction-to-predict-weather/#comment-219218 it's about a more realistic weather system.

 

So, that's it. Let me know, what you think of it. I really wish for some updates in the core mechanics of the game. For most of this stuff I've made threads (and other people did too) and we often got responses from Admins, so the threads atleast get read sometimes by Hinterland. But these threads are clearly framed as "something that would be cool", but these things I mentioned here are in my opinion things, the game really needs. It doesn't really need spray paint, it doesn't really need new animals, what it really needs is it's core mechanics fullfilling their roles. The game isn't the simple early acces sandbox anymore, it became so much more complex.

Thanks for all having read this. Have a great day.

[K3V038]

Good points made here, it would change the game a lot though. Still, I like what youre saying

[Leeanda]

Sorry but you've gone from loving to liking to not liking it much...   The options are there for you to pull torches or not..the loot table can be put to lowest possible ,or you can just choose to not use the tools and see how far you get... The beauty of this game is that there are so many choices to suit so many playstyles....   

 

 

[Razum]

2 hours ago, K3V038 said:

Good points made here, it would change the game a lot though. Still, I like what youre saying

Thanks. In my opinion these changes would really keep the essence of the game the same, or even making it better in what it's doing. So it would'nt change that much from that perspective.

1 hour ago, Leeanda said:

Sorry but you've gone from loving to liking to not liking it much...   The options are there for you to pull torches or not..the loot table can be put to lowest possible ,or you can just choose to not use the tools and see how far you get... The beauty of this game is that there are so many choices to suit so many playstyles....   

I really love the game, that's why I care to write that long of a text. And yes, I can (and I do) make my own rules, like using mods (as mentioned) or not using hatchets, knifes, rifle and revolver in my current Stalker run. The problem is, the game isn't balanced around this. I can't really do without the heavy hammer, since it's so essential, when you don't rely on rifles/revolvers/hatchets/knifes you find. I can decide not to hibernate, but I really forget eating all the time, since there are no consequences. You can make the game experience personal to some degree, but there are limits. I would change a thousand things, if I could, but these are in my opinion the ones not being too difficult to implement, not changing the game in a fundamental way (if done right) and being important enough to mention. The game is still great and keeps improving, I just would like to see it also improving there.

[ManicManiac]

I think folks would do well to remember that these are all subjective points of view.
What one person thinks would make the game "better"...  for another person, it could make the game "worse."

I can respect OP's opinion and personal feelings about it... but by and large, I do not agree with most of the declarative statements/assertions that were made.

I've posted about this kind of stuff many times and at great length over the years... and I don't have time to do so again (or dig up all the post to quote again).  So, I'll just leave it at that.  

Edited June 19 by ManicManiac

[Leeanda]

4 minutes ago, Razum said:

Thanks. In my opinion these changes would really keep the essence of the game the same, or even making it better in what it's doing. So it would'nt change that much from that perspective.

I really love the game, that's why I care to write that long of a text. And yes, I can (and I do) make my own rules, like using mods (as mentioned) or not using hatchets, knifes, rifle and revolver in my current Stalker run. The problem is, the game isn't balanced around this. I can't really do without the heavy hammer, since it's so essential, when you don't rely on rifles/revolvers/hatchets/knifes you find. I can decide not to hibernate, but I really forget eating all the time, since there are no consequences. You can make the game experience personal to some degree, but there are limits. I would change a thousand things, if I could, but these are in my opinion the ones not being too difficult to implement, not changing the game in a fundamental way (if done right) and being important enough to mention. The game is still great and keeps improving, I just would like to see it also improving there.

I'm no game designer but it seems that what sounds simple to change isn't always..  you change one thing and it leads to ..well it's not quite right still so let's change it some more..  or people complain ,like with the harvesting and it gets changed again....  

I just don't think htl have the time to change things, especially if they're not broken ..  and I honestly don't think they'd put something in the game if thats not how they wanted it to work..   

I get some would like the bow drill,and for loper I can see that working,but I don't think everyone wants to rely on one and spend even more time chopping up bits of wood..

I'm not sure what's wrong with the weather but I can't see any problem with it..I think they've done an amazing job in it,I can sit and just watch it for ages.

[Pencil]

I like your ideas; but overhauls would be a bit much for this stage in the game. I would be up for tweaks and improvements to solve simple problems or encourage/discourage players from doing certain actions. But a lot of these suggestions would vastly change features that have remained the same for years. 

I would love an update to fire starting and weather. But if they were to do any "overhauls" of them, I would imagine it to be similar to the beach combing and fishing "overhaul" that was done during TFTFT. The fundamentals stayed the same and were tweaked to make more sense. I would be all for that. 

Personally I think the great part of this game is the simplicity of it. You monitor 4 needs that are easy to care for. Then, the game adds in long term afflictions as you progress like Scurvy and Cabin Fever. It's not complicated but it's also not super basic. Yes, it's easier to cheese that way, but it's how a lot of people love it. But nevertheless I hope your suggestions are considered.

 

[Ghurcb]

40 minutes ago, Pencil said:

I like your ideas; but overhauls would be a bit much for this stage in the game.

This is the unfortunate truth. Such suggestions are about 8 years too late. I remember posting here the idea that indoor temperature should be dynamic, with a new side of core gameplay being to keep your base warm, and the response from the mods was (reasonably) "Hinterland aren't planning to do this any time soon". Like some of ideas here, that would be too big of a change at this point.

[Razum]

Well, thanks for all your responses. I see, there are mixed feelings. I didn't want to start a big discussion here, just share my opinion (and you can too). But still I want to address some points and maybe leave it like that, if you want that too.

I do not agree / it's subjective:
Of course, that's your right. I don't claim to speak for all. I tried to make the argument, that certain things fullfill a certain role and a certain implementation would fit it better, but there's not only one way to look at it and overcomplication could make it worse. You can see it differently and maybe I'm wrong. But personally I don't like cheesy mechanics, even if I could decide not to use them. All of it just my opinion and debatable.

It's too late:
So be it. I had hope for most things, since the existence of mods having implemented similar things shows, the game can be changed that way. Some things just need a few extra variables. I'm aware that if Hinterland would add these things, they would have a much higher responsibility for it working properly, but they also have much more resources than a single developer. And it's apparently not too late to add new regions, new animals, new food systems, a map surveying system and spray paint. It could be the case, that these core mechanics I mentioned are so deep in the code, that they aren't changeable without significant effort. I can't say. I'm just hoping.

In any case I'm looking forward to TLD2 (or whatever Hinterland plans in the background).

[MrWolf]

21 hours ago, Razum said:

In every interloper run the first thing main thing to do is to find the hammer. With it you can go to a forge to get the hatchet, the knife and some arrow heads. These are the things you need to survive (hunting, sometimes harvesting stuff). And there's no other way to get it in Interloper. That's why every run is pretty much the same. You will start systematically searching for the hammer (beneath other things to survive) and then go to the forge, probably in Forlorn Muskeg. In Stalker and below you will just find these things (rifle for arrows), so that isn't that strict. In any case, you will find that stuff eventually, so don't worry. That's the point, you don't have to worry. That's the opposite of what TLD is about. It should be uncertain, if you can find what you need. You should need to use what you have. It should be uncertain, whether this or that is the right decision. It should be uncertain, if/how long you can survive. But it isn't. You have this semi fixed route where you know you are gonna find every tool eventually.

What I wish for is a) more randomness, stretching even as far as some of these tools not even spawning at all (or just once, so you may be lucky to find them at all). That would mean, that there must be other ways to achieve the same (but with more effort). Like improvised hatchet instead of finding a real one. Make the heavy hammer craftable (or make a 'light' one), which makes forging slower and breaks faster. Fire hardened arrow are a good step in my opinion.

Randomly placed items would be terrific.  Not as a change to the game for everyone, but at least as a custom option, or maybe it will be part of the new Misery difficulty.  I would absolutely love to not know where I'm going to find a hammer or hacksaw in Interloper, or if I'll even find one in that life.  Some say to just ignore the items and don't pick them up, but that's not the point.  Any place I spawn in a new run, I know where to go for guaranteed matches and where to look for the hammer, hacksaw, etc.  It takes the mystery and exploration out of the game once I know where the important things are going to be.

[K3V038]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

Randomly placed items would be terrific.  Not as a change to the game for everyone, but at least as a custom option, or maybe it will be part of the new Misery difficulty.  I would absolutely love to not know where I'm going to find a hammer or hacksaw in Interloper, or if I'll even find one in that life.  Some say to just ignore the items and don't pick them up, but that's not the point.  Any place I spawn in a new run, I know where to go for guaranteed matches and where to look for the hammer, hacksaw, etc.  It takes the mystery and exploration out of the game once I know where the important things are going to be.

I play loper often, it would suck without the guaranteed hacksaw and Hammer in hrv

[Ghurcb]

On 6/20/2024 at 2:10 AM, Razum said:

It's too late:
So be it. I had hope for most things, since the existence of mods having implemented similar things shows, the game can be changed that way. Some things just need a few extra variables. I'm aware that if Hinterland would add these things, they would have a much higher responsibility for it working properly, but they also have much more resources than a single developer. And it's apparently not too late to add new regions, new animals, new food systems, a map surveying system and spray paint. It could be the case, that these core mechanics I mentioned are so deep in the code, that they aren't changeable without significant effort. I can't say. I'm just hoping.

Oh, to be clear, I'm not saying that just because it's too late you shouldn't post these suggestions. They are interesting and, in my opinion, great ideas.