The Elephant in the Room

[ThePancakeLady]

12 minutes ago, Ansible said:

I've got another "elephant":

Not sure what the "elephant" is here. It's nighttime- the game does not let you map at night if you don't have a full or nearly full moon overhead with clear skies, even if you can see terrain details on your screen. Your screenshot looks like it shows a normal thing to me. It's night, and there is no big bright moon overhead, so I would not expect to be able to do any charcoal mapping in my own game under those conditions. 

[Ansible]

14 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Never sure with that one..sometimes it works sometimes not....  Similar to being able to read all night in the car in transfer pass, regardless of weather..

That's what I'm saying here, the onscreen visibility has nothing to do with the "visibility" game mechanic. Is there a mod to fix this? Because even though I can't map, I'm PRETTY sure at that level of crystal clarity, I can see the flea on the ptarmigan three miles away.

[Leeanda]

2 minutes ago, Ansible said:

That's what I'm saying here, the onscreen visibility has nothing to do with the "visibility" game mechanic. Is there a mod to fix this? Because even though I can't map, I'm PRETTY sure at that level of crystal clarity, I can see the flea on the ptarmigan three miles away.

Well as @ThePancakeLady said ,it must be the moon ...but honestly I could've sworn that even on full Moon night's i still can't always map..

I have no idea about mods I'm afraid,I'm on Xbox..

I can't see ptarmigans 99% of the time when they're right in front of me  on a clear sunny day lol... Seeing a flea would require a hubble telescope 😁

[Ansible]

14 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Well as @ThePancakeLady said ,it must be the moon ...but honestly I could've sworn that even on full Moon night's i still can't always map..

I have no idea about mods I'm afraid,I'm on Xbox..

I can't see ptarmigans 99% of the time when they're right in front of me  on a clear sunny day lol... Seeing a flea would require a hubble telescope 😁

Hyperbole to emphasize the point. I can also map when my character literally can't see six feet in front of them. That's my point. The "visibility" system is inconsistent with the player experience.

[ThePancakeLady]

16 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Well as @ThePancakeLady said ,it must be the moon ...but honestly I could've sworn that even on full Moon night's i still can't always map..

I have no idea about mods I'm afraid,I'm on Xbox..

I also said "with clear skies". Cloudy skies seem to prevent mapping or reading even with a full moon. I generally am not outside on nights that might bring an Aurora (clear skies, any moon phase) when I am playing my usual Stalker runs- because Aurora Wolves... but in Pilgrim runs in the past I have found cloudy skies at night even with a full moon seem to prevent mapping or reading. And without a full moon or almost full moon (day before, day after) mapping isn't going to happen at night (I have not tested this during an Aurora during any moon phase, because again- Aurora Wolves...).

As far as mods- check the UCG & Modding subforum to see what's out there and what is actually updated and working right now: 

https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/forum/103-modding-ugc/

Edited July 26 by ThePancakeLady
Typonese, always typonese...

[Leeanda]

1 minute ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I also said "with clear skies". Cloudy skies seem to prevent mapping or reading even with a full moon. I generally am not outside on nights that might bring an Aurora (clear skies, any moon phase) when I am playing my usual Stalker runs- because Aurora Wolves... but in Pilgrim runs in the past I have found cloudy skies at night even with a full moon seem to prevent mapping or reading. And without a full moon or almost full moon (day before, day after) mapping isn't going to happen at night (I have not testing this during an Aurora during any moon phase, because again- Aurora Wolves...).

As far as mods- check the UCG & Modding subforum to see what's out there and what is actually updated and working right now: 

https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/forum/103-modding-ugc/

I know,sorry..being a bit of a lazy writer to spare my arm today...

But I've also had failed attempts during an Aurora so I think it is the moon more than anything..

3 minutes ago, Ansible said:

Hyperbole to emphasize the point. I can also map when my character literally can't see six feet in front of them. That's my point. The "visibility" system is inconsistent with the player experience.

How can you map in those conditions?  I know it's possible in very light fog,or mist but visibility is still pretty good,for the distance we can actually map anyway.

[Ansible]

Just now, Leeanda said:

I know,sorry..being a bit of a lazy writer to spare my arm today...

But I've also had failed attempts during an Aurora so I think it is the moon more than anything..

How can you map in those conditions?  I know it's possible in very light fog,or mist but visibility is still pretty good,for the distance we can actually map anyway.

I'll do some screenshots for you next time I'm in such conditions. But do you get what I'm saying?

[Leeanda]

Just now, Ansible said:

I'll do some screenshots for you next time I'm in such conditions. But do you get what I'm saying?

Thank you,I'd appreciate that..

Yes I do get what you mean.

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Not sure what the "elephant" is here.

Precisely...   The phrase, "the elephant in the room" describes a topic/subject that's a major problem or controversial issue that is obviously present but avoided as a subject for discussion because it is more comfortable to do so. 

This whole thread seems to be more about reporting bugs... which is an extraordinarily common thing for folks here in this community to discuss and is by no means is by no means an "elephant in the room".  Unless of course, OP is trying to make negative implications about what they think Hinterland's intentions or practices are.  However, I don't think that's the case (at least I hope that's not the case, and I make no assumptions in that regard).  I suppose it just feels like perhaps it's likely a situation where the idiom is simply being misused.   

 

For OP:
@Ansible
This is some good science, well done!
It's always beneficial for folks who are inclined to go on Bug Hunts, and for all of us to speak up about and report those things we come across that seem to be bugged.

 

Edited July 26 by ManicManiac

[Ansible]

21 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

The phrase, "the elephant in the room" describes a topic/subject that's a major problem or controversial issue that is obviously present but avoided as a subject for discussion because it is more comfortable to do so. 

That is kind of why I used the phrase. I see it as a major problem that the devs appear to be focusing so much time on new zones, entirely new systems and gameplay mechanics, when some of what I would call the most "basic" stuff in the older zones have been... "neglected" for the lack of a better word.

I get that new zones and new mechanics, the "new shinies" if you will are more exciting for people. I just want to make sure that all of these "little things" have have collected over time that make the game seem "unpolished" should be addressed, and I'd like to see them get on the plate.

Quote

This whole thread seems to be more about reporting bugs

Are they bugs though? To me, a bug is something that seems unintentional and game breaking, like holes in the world that make you go under the map. This seems more like things that may or may not be intentional, but we don't know whether or not they were intentional. Maybe the devs DID want this grate to be searchable, but not that identical looking grate in another zone? I really don't know until they say something about it. And that's why I'm bringing it up... for the chance for something to be said about all of these little inconsistencies that bother me.

Full disclosure: I'm a high functioning autistic, so it's quite likely that all these "little things" don't bother the majority of the playerbase, and only bother me... because I notice these "little things". They are something to me that's "wrong with the world", and whenever I feel like there's something wrong with the world, I feel a compulsion to either fix it myself, or get it fixed by someone.

Do you see where I'm coming from with this?

[ManicManiac]

46 minutes ago, Ansible said:

That is kind of why I used the phrase. I see it as a major problem that the devs appear to be focusing so much time on new zones, entirely new systems and gameplay mechanics, when some of what I would call the most "basic" stuff in the older zones have been... "neglected" for the lack of a better word.

So, then you are indeed stating that you are making negative implications/accusations as to what you think Hinterland's intentions and practices are.  Seems a bit rude, if I'm honest about how that reads.
 

46 minutes ago, Ansible said:

Full disclosure: I'm a high functioning autistic

I do appreciate you giving some more context to this though...  However, still I have to say that I find it very unlikely that Hinterland is or ever has intentionally "abandoned or neglecting" anything... but you are choosing to see it that way. 

I would say that it's important to try and consider the scope of what the team at Hinterland is working on.   Also, that bugs happen, and some bugs are hard for a small team of testers to find.  Also, I think it's fair to say that thousands (if not millions) of players out in the wild are going to be running the game through vastly more scenarios (often highly specific) that will uncover issues and bugs that the Hinterland team never intended... and have been working diligently to fix as quickly as they can.

It's easy for us to look at an issue and think... oh that seems like a quick and easy fix, why haven't they just done it.  Well, the truth of it is that programing is often complex and what we laymen may think would be an easy change, might in reality be an extremely difficult thing to detangle and change due to perhaps other interdependencies or previously undetected complications.

I urge folks not to so quickly jump to conclusions... but rather just ask the questions and participate in the discussion rather than just trying to throw stones through veiled implication, hoping that a well-placed "gotcha" will prompt Hinterland to fix what an unhappy individual thinks the problem is.

Please don't misunderstand, I think you are a very well-meaning member of the community... but I do think you are kind of making some unqualified assumptions.

Long story short: I just don't think there is an elephant in the room... because I think Hinterland has always been rather forthright with us, and I believe have done (and I think will continue to do) the best they can for us.

Edited July 26 by ManicManiac

[Ansible]

2 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

Well, the truth of it is that program is often complex and what we laymen may think would be an easy, might in reality be a difficult thing to detangle and change due to perhaps other interdependencies or previously undetected complication.

Oh, ABSOLUTELY. And nowhere do I suggest that any such changes would be easy. I'm actually a programmer myself by trade, people pay me to write code, so I know how something that MAY seem easy to a layperson can take hours for a programmer to accomplish. I'll never state otherwise. I have to deal with "DLL Hell" at least a few times a year. I used to play a game called City of Heroes, and they had what they called a "Standard Code Rant" in their community. I'll share it with you here.

 

4 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

However, still I have to say that I find it very unlikely that Hinterland is or ever has intentionally "abandoned or neglecting" anything... but you are choosing to see it that way. 

Oh absolutely not, I'm not assuming anything about the team. I know that they are a small team, an independent team without a AAA publisher backing them. That's precisely why I'm bringing these "little things" up, to point them out, so that they can get fixed. That's all. There's no malice assumed or stated.

[ThePancakeLady]

4 minutes ago, Ansible said:

That's precisely why I'm bringing these "little things" up, to point them out, so that they can get fixed. That's all. There's no malice assumed or stated.

You acknowledge that you know you see some things differently from many other people...

 

56 minutes ago, Ansible said:

...so it's quite likely that all these "little things" don't bother the majority of the playerbase, and only bother me... because I notice these "little things".

Just because something bothers you personally or you would like to see a mechanic work a different way- that does not mean it needs fixed. If it isn't broken, how do you fix it? If it is working the way the developers intended it to- what do they fix? 

If you find something that you feel is a bug- report it. If it is a bug- the Tech Team will fix it in the amount of time they need to fix it (which may not be as quickly as you would like), while working on a backlog of other bugs that they are also working on fixing at the same time. If it isn't a bug, and they tell you it isn't a bug- you not liking it doesn't make it a bug. If it bothers you a great deal, you need to see if there is a mod that can make it the way you want it to be. If there is no mod to make it the way you want it to be- you need to talk to other modders to learn how to mod this game, and create a mod that makes things the way you want them to be, or ask them to create a mod that makes the game the way you want it to be.

I am not autistic, but my daughter and Godson both are- to differing degrees, with different conditions. And both understand that the way they see the world and the way they work through things is different than how most other people see the world and work through things. And they both understand that having any form of ASD does not give them the right to be rude or insulting to other people simply because they see things differently or work through things differently. If they don't like something in a game, it doesn't mean that thing is wrong or broken. Sometimes it is just something that they don't like, when it is working as intended by the developers. We all have those "little things" in games we play that we don't like or enjoy. Not liking something in a game does not mean it is broken, neglected, or not working as intended.

 

[Ansible]

Whoa, I feel like reading a whole lot more into what I'm saying than there is.

I'm not intending to be rude. Please quote what you perceive as rude and explain why it is rude to you, so that I may learn.

Because that is unintentional.

[ThePancakeLady]

5 hours ago, Ansible said:

Good quality resolve, not so good speed of resolution.

This comes across as slightly rude- a better way to say this might be "Good quality resolve, though it took longer than I had hoped for." It says the same thing, in a less aggressive manner- HL has a backlog of bugs they are working on, and your original statement makes it seem like you think your report should have been given higher priority and should not have taken any time to resolve.

And @ManicManiac's post above goes into a few of the other things you have posted here that come across as antagonistic, rude, and somewhat aggressively negative toward the devs. 

Quote

Hyperbole to emphasize the point. I can also map when my character literally can't see six feet in front of them. That's my point. The "visibility" system is inconsistent with the player experience.

"The visibility system feels inconsistent with what I would like my experience with the game to be", might be a better way of phrasing that ^^^. Your original post comes across as if you are speaking for all players, that we are all having a negative experience because of it. I am not, but you seem to be speaking for me here, and it does not reflect my "player experience" at all. I do not find it inconsistent at all.

I get it, you do not mean to come across as rude or aggressive. My daughter and Godson don't filter what they say or how they say it well at times either. But learning to find words with less negative associations and speaking for only your experience and feelings would make "normies" like me bristle a bit less, perhaps. And no wild hyperboles to "emphasize the point".  That is just off-putting to many people.

Edited July 26 by ThePancakeLady
Typonese corrected and additional commentary added

[ManicManiac]

8 hours ago, Ansible said:

Whoa, I feel like reading a whole lot more into what I'm saying than there is.

I'm genuinely not trying to read into anything per se.  However, words do mean things.  Whenever I'm uncertain about something that someone has written, I do tend to simply ask clarifying questions (because I'd rather not assume).   

As for my other comments... I was just illustrating how your thread reads to me, and what I thought about it.

I was also encouraging of you continuing to discuss things you find to be issues/bugs.  I'm in no way discouraging you at all.  All I was previously explaining, is that it seems more than a bit of an unfair characterization to be implying that discussing bugs and issues is an "elephant in the room."  I have already given the explanation, so I'm not going to revisit that aspect.

Point is... I encourage everyone to discuss things they feel are issues/bugs and also to report those things via the support portal.

I don't think anyone is reading anything into your comments... but rather simply discussing what your comments seem to imply because of how you have chosen to phrase them.  As far as my follow up, again, I was simply asking clarifying questions.  You're reply clarified...  You mentioned that there was no malic intended, and I'm good with that.  No problem, as far as I'm concerned.  

Again... I have no wish to discourage you, I was only looking to clarify some thoughts and ideas.

Edited July 27 by ManicManiac

[Ansible]

17 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

This comes across as slightly rude- a better way to say this might be "Good quality resolve, though it took longer than I had hoped for." It says the same thing, in a less aggressive manner- HL has a backlog of bugs they are working on, and your original statement makes it seem like you think your report should have been given higher priority and should not have taken any time to resolve.

Thank you. That is better phrasing, and I can see why. I never intended my statement to mean that "my" issues should be fixed first. What I see is the devs putting a ton of work into fantastic new zones, mechanics, systems, and objects. Which is great. I just don't want them to forget about things in the "old" zones that seem incomplete, inconsistent, or unpolished. That can easily happen in pursuit of the new shiny that might draw more eyeballs towards the game.

17 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

"The visibility system feels inconsistent with what I would like my experience with the game to be", might be a better way of phrasing that ^^^. Your original post comes across as if you are speaking for all players, that we are all having a negative experience because of it. I am not, but you seem to be speaking for me here, and it does not reflect my "player experience" at all. I do not find it inconsistent at all.

Thank you. I did misspeak when I said the "player experience". I guess what I really meant is "the character's experience".  We're seeing through a character's eyes, and through those character's eyes I can see details clearly to a much farther distance than you can even map. Yet I cannot map, at all. This confuses me. And I get upset when something about the world feels illogical, or I can't explain it.

17 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I get it, you do not mean to come across as rude or aggressive. My daughter and Godson don't filter what they say or how they say it well at times either. But learning to find words with less negative associations and speaking for only your experience and feelings would make "normies" like me bristle a bit less, perhaps. And no wild hyperboles to "emphasize the point".  That is just off-putting to many people.

I've spent the last 20 years since I was diagnosed well into adulthood, fighting a daily struggle with understanding neurotypicals (what you called "normies"), and helping them to understand me. It never gets any easier. Every person is like a brand new puzzle to solve, because each one comes with unique experiences, DNA, learned behaviors, and tendencies.

I can't stop making hyperboles, they are just to good and useful a tool to do so, but I will try to state it beforehand next time so that there is less confusion.

Edited July 27 by Ansible

[Ansible]

I like to tell people "my autism is an explanation, but NOT an excuse". I am responsible for the messages that I send out, and trying to make sure that they are received accurately. 

Thank you everyone for working with me on this.

[Ansible]

This is an interesting and curious turn of events. I had started a new survival run, to go through the Tales stories. That's when I got stuck in the hole I reported earlier. Well, ever since I got the modified "Sandbox" file back from Hinterland and put it into my directory, I've been... eternal.

Now, to clarify, I'm NOT invincible. I can still get afflictions. However, aside from the force changing of my condition bar from white to red via Frostbite, I seem to never lose any condition... EVER. I can't die.

• I've tried to give myself terminal dehydration - no go
• I've tried to starve myself - still kicking
• I've tried sleeping right outside in -19 degree weather - I sleep like a baby (though I did get a bit of Frostbite that changed the color of parts of my bar, meh no big deal)!
• I've tried falling from a high cliff, where I should normally die, but if I made it to the bottom I wasn't going to be stuck anywhere - I survived, not a scratch (though all of my clothes are shredded to heck)
• I've tried intentionally getting MAULED BY A BEAR - MULTIPLE TIMES... I'd get back up and run right back into it again... not a single budge of my condition bar.

I frankly find this hilarious, and awesome. I can now play the game in a whole different way than I played it before. I can explore anywhere where I won't fall into another hole/pit I can't get out of (I'm afraid of ending this run by getting myself stuck in a hole, and I don't want Hinterland to take my file and modify it any further!). I can do anything I want with zero fear.

It's like The Long Light, because aside from tiredness slowing me down (I still have to sleep so that I can run everywhere instead of a slow painful walk). I still have encumberance, so I can't carry anything I want... but aside from that? I can go almost anywhere, and do almost anything I want, without fear, without danger. It's almost like the opposite of The Long Dark.

I feel like this should be another optional game mode... is there a setting in the Custom Game options to let this happen? I'm curious now.

Anyways, some screenshots below... it's been fun!

Freshly mauled by a bear and getting up:

Harvesting all of that wonderful bear guts as long as I can in subzero weather with no fear of death:

 

Ooooo lots of fun things to look at, but it don't hurt me none!

Let's go nuts and do anything we want! 😁

 

[Leeanda]

5 minutes ago, Ansible said:

This is an interesting and curious turn of events. I had started a new survival run, to go through the Tales stories. That's when I got stuck in the hole I reported earlier. Well, ever since I got the modified "Sandbox" file back from Hinterland and put it into my directory, I've been... eternal.

Now, to clarify, I'm NOT invincible. I can still get afflictions. However, aside from the force changing of my condition bar from white to red via Frostbite, I seem to never lose any condition... EVER. I can't die.

• I've tried to give myself terminal dehydration - no go
• I've tried to starve myself - still kicking
• I've tried sleeping right outside in -19 degree weather - I sleep like a baby (though I did get a bit of Frostbite that changed the color of parts of my bar, meh no big deal)!
• I've tried falling from a high cliff, where I should normally die, but if I made it to the bottom I wasn't going to be stuck anywhere - I survived, not a scratch (though all of my clothes are shredded to heck)
• I've tried intentionally getting MAULED BY A BEAR - MULTIPLE TIMES... I'd get back up and run right back into it again... not a single budge of my condition bar.

I frankly find this hilarious, and awesome. I can now play the game in a whole different way than I played it before. I can explore anywhere where I won't fall into another hole/pit I can't get out of (I'm afraid of ending this run by getting myself stuck in a hole, and I don't want Hinterland to take my file and modify it any further!). I can do anything I want with zero fear.

It's like The Long Light, because aside from tiredness slowing me down (I still have to sleep so that I can run everywhere instead of a slow painful walk). I still have encumberance, so I can't carry anything I want... but aside from that? I can go almost anywhere, and do almost anything I want, without fear, without danger. It's almost like the opposite of The Long Dark.

I feel like this should be another optional game mode... is there a setting in the Custom Game options to let this happen? I'm curious now.

Anyways, some screenshots below... it's been fun!

Freshly mauled by a bear and getting up:

Harvesting all of that wonderful bear guts as long as I can in subzero weather with no fear of death:

 

Ooooo lots of fun things to look at, but it don't hurt me none!

Let's go nuts and do anything we want! 😁

 

Lol... Enjoy it while it lasts .. I can't see htl putting it into the game though 😁

[xanna]

@Ansible like

[Ansible]

Fascinating update - I was making use of my new immortality to explore the DLC and complete all the Tales in relative safety. Along the way, I'd acquired multiple instances of Frostbite, and then one time I actually managed to DIE while sleeping outside... the screen didn't tell me what I'd died from. I was shocked.

I didn't want to lose this awesome save where I don't lose condition, so I tried one of my "three lives" for the first time. Had a few adventures, finished Tales 1 and 2. During which time I noticed that due to my resurrection, I had "lost some permanent condition".

I'm in the middle of Tales 3, and the temporary affliction from resurrecting just disappeared - somehow taking with it not ONLY my condition loss from THAT condition, but also somehow ALL of my Frostbite with it! Nuts, and weird, right?

Check my condition bar. Where there was half gone towards the red due to Frostbite - no more red!

And indeed, no more Frostbite or serious conditions at all!

Not sure if this is a second bug beyond my "immortality" bug, or somehow related to that bug, or is expected behavior when you survive the "rez" penalty - but I'll take it!

All fit and new, yay!

 

[Leeanda]

5 minutes ago, Ansible said:

Fascinating update - I was making use of my new immortality to explore the DLC and complete all the Tales in relative safety. Along the way, I'd acquired multiple instances of Frostbite, and then one time I actually managed to DIE while sleeping outside... the screen didn't tell me what I'd died from. I was shocked.

I didn't want to lose this awesome save where I don't lose condition, so I tried one of my "three lives" for the first time. Had a few adventures, finished Tales 1 and 2. During which time I noticed that due to my resurrection, I had "lost some permanent condition".

I'm in the middle of Tales 3, and the temporary affliction from resurrecting just disappeared - somehow taking with it not ONLY my condition loss from THAT condition, but also somehow ALL of my Frostbite with it! Nuts, and weird, right?

Check my condition bar. Where there was half gone towards the red due to Frostbite - no more red!

And indeed, no more Frostbite or serious conditions at all!

Not sure if this is a second bug beyond my "immortality" bug, or somehow related to that bug, or is expected behavior when you survive the "rez" penalty - but I'll take it!

All fit and new, yay!

 

I think I got lost there somewhere lol...  But if you're still in good condition then that's a big plus😊

[ManicManiac]

Indeed, truly a fascinating bug hunt, well done!  
If you haven't already, I do recommend getting what you've found reported.

[Ansible]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

Indeed, truly a fascinating bug hunt, well done!  
If you haven't already, I do recommend getting what you've found reported.

NOOOOOOO!!!! If I do, they might take away what I've started to affectionately call "Jennifer Forever" (named after Jennifer Hale, the voice actress that voices Astrid/Female Survivor).