There is No Damage. Only Wounds.

On Steam Community to for those who surf here instead. Apologies for repetition.

There is No Damage. Only Wounds.

Updated for v0.302

Basic: Unlike many other games, creatures here have no hitpoints. Damage is not relevant. Hitting an animal in this game causes a wound. Period. All wounds kill. Lethal wounds kill instantly. Mortal wounds cause bleeding and kill over time.

Lethal Wounds: Sometimes hitting an animal will kill it instantly. This is a case of randomly generating a "critical hit". The chance to score a critical hit is based both on where the animal gets hit and the weapon used. Striking the animal in some areas grants a 100% likelihood of a critical hit. In other areas, the chance is lower, and in some the chance is 0%. The rifle has a greater chance of causing a lethal wound than does the bow.

Mortal Wounds: Failing to cause a lethal wound still attaches a mortal wound. Mortally wounded creatures will bleed until their wound's timer expires, then die. There are different times assigned to bleeding wounds, some faster than others, based again on where the animal was hit and with which weapon. the bow causes faster bleeding wounds than the rifle.

Wounds Do Not Stack: Multiple mortal wounds will not make an animal die any faster than a single wound. With one exception. Inflicting a wound in an area that bleeds faster on a creature that is already afflicted with wound that bleeds slower will speed its death because it is replacing the first wound with the quick wound.

Example: shooting a bear in the leg with a rifle will cause a bleeding wound that takes 4 hours to complete. Shooting the same bear in the neck with an arrow, 20 minutes after the first shot, will replace the first wound bleedout time with the proper time for being shot with an arrow in the neck or 45 minutes. So instead of dying 4 hours after the first shot, the bear dies 45 minutes after the first shot, even though the second shot was not hit until 20 minutes after the first.

More examples: Shoot bear in top of its head with rifle, it dies 1 game hour later. Shoot bear in its foot, it dies 8 hours later. Shoot bear in its foot then shoot it in the head 20 minutes later, it dies 1 hour after the first shot.

Strangeness: Creatures only drop blood when they are fleeing. If they ever change to a walking or charging stance, no blood will appear on the ground until they are encouraged to once again flee. But they are still wounded, and will die appropriately at their appointed time for the wound they carry. (Bug Report Ticket #2840)

Also a bit confusing: It is possible to graze the skin of an animal and get a blood spray effect but not cause any wound. Animal will run but will not bleed.

For Bears:

Head = Face + Head + Top of Neck

Shoulder = Top of Front Leg and area between

Torso = Area between Shoulder and Back Leg

BackLeg = Top of Back Leg and Butt

Foot = Bottom of any Leg

Bleedout Times

Bow / Rifle / Target

45 Min / 1 Hour / Head

2 Hours / 4 Hours / Shoulder

4 Hours / 6 Hours / Torso

4 Hours / 6 Hours / BackLeg

4 Hours / 8 Hours / Foot

More Examples:

Shoot Bear in the Torso with the Bow = Dies 4 Hours after Shot.

Shoot Bear in the Torso 6 times with the Rifle then 6 times with the Bow = Dies 4 Hours after First Shot.

Shoot Bear in the Head with Rifle, then Shoot in Head with Bow = Instant Death (Two Hits to Head).

Shoot Bear with Rifle in the Head, then Shoot in Foot 8 times = Still 1 Hour from First Shot to Bleed Out.

Shoot Bear with Bow in the Back Leg, then Shoot in Head 40 Minutes later = Dies 5 Minutes after Second Shot (45 Minutes after First).

All this is only proven by ingame testing and your personal perception right?

Other then excessive shooting on animals you haven't gathered any information?

Not saying this might not be accurate, Im just wondering how scientific this is

All this is only proven by ingame testing and your personal perception right?

Other then excessive shooting on animals you haven't gathered any information?

Not saying this might not be accurate, Im just wondering how scientific this is

Plenty of other information on shooting and struggling with animals. Data above is just the stuff from current version. I believe bleed out times were changed from 0.271 to 0.280 but not mentioned in notes. But much testing has gone into proving this theory. Science! Wow.

Background:

- Bleed out timer is the survival clock. Tested with and without time dilation effects (boiling water, harvesting toolboxes, etc.). Same results with and without time dilation.

- Location is usually Desolation Point because animals can't run away easily; track with eyes on until point of death. Limited testing opportunities on other maps have consistently provided expected results.

- Tested multiple animals of all types with all weapon combinations. Previous version data supports weapon type does not matter and all animals of a type respond identically.

- New start after every update.

Which part of "shot bear ten times in the foot and it still died 8 hours later" fits any other model? :geek:

Thanks for the info, I was just wondering if you got any other information from anywhere else other then ingame testing

Which part of "shot bear ten times in the foot and it still died 8 hours later" fits any other model? :geek:

Well, I still believe there is damage involved because I would interpret your data differently.

The data you've collected (good job, btw ) proves that the maximum bleeding out time for bears seems to be 8 hours (~12,5% condition loss per hour) and that shooting a bear's foot doesn't seem to cause any impact damage. (One can hardly say whether it's no damage at all or just 0,5% condition loss or sth.^^ Doesn't matter much anyway, because if it's damage at all, its so little that we can neglect it.)

Your data set also proves that hitting a bear's head obviously applies a bleeding debuff to the bear which is why it drops dead after one hour. Hitting first head, then foot has the same effect, so bleeding debuffs don't seem to stack.

If I combine your numbers now with my own experiences while shooting bears (e.g. that you're able to kill a bear directly with four consecutive shots into the butt or with two consecutive shots in the head^^), I end up with the following theory:

1. Hitting a bear with a bullet or arrow always applied a bleeding debuff, no matter where exactly you hit it.

2. The bear's body is divided into different zones. Which zone you hit influences how much impact damage you do. Most damage (sometimes even 100%) is done when you hit the head or heart region. Neck chest, back and bottom are medium damage regions and feet/ears are either extremely low damage or even no damage at all regions.

3. The time it takes for a bear to die can be calculated with the formula (100%-direct impact damage) : 12,5% condition/h.

So If you do a headshot (let's say 90% damage) it would be (100%-90%) : 12,5%/h = 0,8h. If you do on the other hand a shot to the foot (or several shots to the foot, doesn't matter much), the formula would be sth. like (100%- 0% or 0,5%x n) : 12,5% /h = 7.5-8h for n<10. As you can see, your data would support this theory as well.

To see which theory is right, you would have to do some shots to the medium damage regions now.

If you do one bottom shot and wait for the bear to bleed out afterwards, it should take A) less than 8 hours to die and B) longer than if you do two or three bottom shots and then wait for it to bleed out in case that my theory is correct. In other words, my theory would predict sth like: 1 butt shot = 6h till death, 2 shots= 4 hours and 3 shots = 2 hours till death. Numbers may be different of course, but you should definitely see some trend (the more shots = the more initial damage, the less remaining bleeding time till death).

If your theory is correct, it shouldn't matter whether you shoot the bear's butt one or three times - it should always drop dead after the same amount of time (because we already know from your previous data that bleeding debuffs don't stack).

Well, I still believe there is damage involved because I would interpret your data differently.

Great to have someone else onboard. Thank you.

Just started sampling butt shots. 6 hours to kill, as you say.

Trying to get multiple shots on has proven difficult. Managed to kill one in 4 hours, but after a clear shot on his rump cannot accurately say where the next shot landed. So, maybe damage exists after all and works as you have stated.

And, yeah, it was exactly 8 hours after first shot that ten-times-foot-shot bear died, so zero damage from foot shots has high probability. Or maybe he can only take damage from them once...

If anything said is true...I must play with Super-Animals!

First up:

The Super-Deer!!!

Hyper-Bear.jpg[/attachment]

After accepting the fact that the deer must have vanished (...again...) I put FIVE Bullets into

the (only!!?) Bear on CH.

Between every shot I rescued myself (always with plenty of luck) and went to sleep for an hour before chasing him again.

Ironically I had a Wolf f*** me up in between and I was injured and bleeding for some time.

The Blood Trail that I left behind was still there after I slept for 10 hours to recover.

The Bears' Trail was gone every time I shot him and slept for an hour...strange...

After putting all five left Rounds into the Bear I ran out of Ammo for the Rifle and took the Bow.

Put three! Arrows into the Side of the Bear, but he won't die at all!

After every single Hit he fled and I chased him...and shot again.

After all these hits I decided to sleep over the night and search for the Bear the next day...

That started on day 101 (fresh run in v.280)...now I'm at the End of day 104 and still searching all days and all over the whole map...but can't find that 'wonder-'Bear!

How do these two Animals fit into your maths?

BTW:

I'm really glad that I just had gathered (and cooked) plenty of Food before these two Huntings...otherwise I would surely have faded into... :?

If anything said is true...I must play with Super-Animals!

How do these two Animals fit into your maths?

Sorry to tell you this Foxen, but I think you've been creating these "Super animals" yourself accidentally.^^

Let me explain: In previous versions, it was a viable strategy to shoot a bear, escape into a building, sleep a few hours, go back outside and retrieve the corpse afterwards. If I interpret your stories right, that's what you were doing both in case of the deer and the bear: You shot them, changed zones (=entered an interior), slept and went back outside.

I haven't tried this hunting style a lot myself in V.271/V.280 (so take this comment with a grain of salt, please), but the two times I tried it, the same problem you observed also happened to me.

It seems that Bears now reset back to 100% health and no bleeding as soon as you change zones (changing zones means entering a building, mine or other map). I shot about five bullets into a bear myself until I realized that It was always resetting to its old position and 100% condition whenever I changed zones to escape it. (Cascade Falls bear, I entered the Mine leading to Carter River to escape it). Pretty sure I could have placed another 50 rounds in it and nothing would have changed.^^

No idea whether this is a bug or the Devs' way to make bear hunting a bit more difficult - you could write a ticket about it if it bothers you.

What I can say for sure is that campfire-hunting still works. And shooting bears from places where they can't reach you (steep rocks, fishing huts, farmstead porch) should still work as well.

Just try shooting a bear over a campfire into the face twice: It's a 100% secure kill (unless you miss the head ofc.)

Hmmmm...that's sad because it wasn't my intention to use an exploit by rescueing myself into a house.

The three arrows were shot one after the other while following the bear because of his behavior to flee after every hit.

I didn't change zones at all at this point.

And what about the deer?

I ran/went after it the whole time...without entering any building or hut and without sleeping at all.

After the first shot it fled a while, turned around and wandered back towards me.

I crouched sideways to it and shot it again and after this second hit it fled across the whole lake...while I ran/went after it.

As said both shots were definitally hits recognizable by the blood spreading off of the deer.

I'm a hunter in RL and from what I've seen by the Impacts I would suspect that both shots (unless the graphics that are used to show an Impact are totally useless and/or random placed...) were (sry, don't know the exact english term, but I think you'll understand 'Blattschüsse') Hits right to the chest.

And even if that weren't hits of that kind...it's hillarious that this deer with two bullets in it could run this distance...and back...and all that without any sign of suffer.

Remember: It RAN the hole distance!

I had an extremly hard time following it.

My Char was suffering from exhaustion...but this deer obviously had no problem at all...not from running the whole way nor from it's wounds.

I only went to sleep because of losing condition while suffering from exhaustion.

I would suggest to change the mechanic from time related to distance related...or at least cap the max distance an animal is capable of running after it got hit.

Your suggestion about using a fire for hunting bears may work, but I just don't want to use exploits in the game...that's the reason for sleeping only an hour while the bear was right around the House I rescued myself in.

Otherwise he would have mauled me right after leaving...and I didn't want to face him that close

Hmmmm...that's sad because it wasn't my intention to use an exploit by rescueing myself into a house.

The three arrows were shot one after the other while following the bear because of his behavior to flee after every hit.

I didn't change zones at all at this point.

Well, ask 10 people what they consider an exploit in TLD and you get 10 different answers. (And the Devs usually don't deliver statements whether they consider certain strategies or playstyles to be exploits either, so it's close to impossible to determine what their opinions about these things are.) ^^

I for one wouldn't call escaping into a building a real "exploit" because that's what I would (and theoretically could) do in real life if an angry bear was dashing towards me. I doubt anyone would stay outside and wait to be mauled in such a situation.

The real problem is the bear's AI in my opinion. If you shoot a bear from some place where it can't reach you (near a campfire, on top of a rock or whatever else), it should either A) be able to reach you nevertheless or B) instantly turn tail and run away as fast as it can. Currently it's either standing around on four legs and staring at you eternally or it stands up on its hind legs, sniffs around for 5 seconds and only then decides to run away.

And what about the deer?

I ran/went after it the whole time...without entering any building or hut and without sleeping at all.

After the first shot it fled a while, turned around and wandered back towards me.

I crouched sideways to it and shot it again and after this second hit it fled across the whole lake...while I ran/went after it.

As said both shots were definitally hits recognizable by the blood spreading off of the deer.

I'm a hunter in RL and from what I've seen by the Impacts I would suspect that both shots (unless the graphics that are used to show an Impact are totally useless and/or random placed...) were (sry, don't know the exact english term, but I think you'll understand 'Blattschüsse') Hits right to the chest.

And even if that weren't hits of that kind...it's hillarious that this deer with two bullets in it could run this distance...and back...and all that without any sign of suffer.

Remember: It RAN the hole distance!

I had an extremly hard time following it.

My Char was suffering from exhaustion...but this deer obviously had no problem at all...not from running the whole way nor from it's wounds.

I don't have much experience with killing deer, sorry. I usually either have them killed by a wolf or crouch to get close to them and kill them with a headshot eventually. (The deer needs to be walking straight towards you. You stay crouched until it is less than 15m away, then you shoot it in the head. If you hit the head, it's a 100% secure kill even with the bow - I thus never tried chest shots myself).

I agree that shooting a deer's chest twice ("Blattschuss") should definitely kill it, but there's just no way to tell where exactly your bullet hit this particular deer (and if it hit the area that is supposed to be the "maximum damage region" of the deer). What the Devs have programmed to be the heart region of a TLD deer needn't be exactly the same spot that would kill a real life deer instantly (or very fast at least). And I can't tell you whether the blood spout graphics are 100% accurate either. Unless the Devs make a statement regarding these issues everything is more or less speculation as we have no real way to determine the precise impact area of a bullet (except the blood spout). I have the strong impression that arrows don't get stuck totally precisely in the original impact area either, but I can't prove this.

As for your three arrows-bear: That's not unusual (unless it survived 3 arrows to the head).^^

Arrows do less damage than bullets and if you shot the bear somewhere in its back, side or butt (probably the case because if was fleeing) 3 arrows simply don't do enough damage to kill the beast instantly. I don't want to say that this is realistic or anything, but it's working this way in TLD afaik.

I would suggest to change the mechanic from time related to distance related...or at least cap the max distance an animal is capable of running after it got hit.

I personally would prefer shorter running distances of wounded animals as well. In my opinion animals should be both more scarce and more shy, but following their blood trails should be a little less tiresome. The challenge about hunting should be to find (and get into range to shoot) your prey, not to retrieve its corpse afterwards.^^

I really like the way how wolves are getting slower and start limping before they die now, bears and deer should definitely get similar animations. And wounded animals should start slowing down a bit earlier - not run at full speed for 2 hours, then trot for 10 minutes, limp for 5 minutes and finally die. I would very much prefer it if each movement speed stage was (more or less) equally long.

one arrow, one dead bear, dropped right in front of me

ten rifle rounds, one 7% gamer (although i did find the bear dead later)

on the exploit, i was trying to get in front of a bear. I shot him, and tried to cut through the gas station, when i tried to go in, it would not let me. then i tried another building and the same thing. when the bear died, i still could not enter buildings. fortunately it let me reload from my last save. i guess that part should really be under the tech section, but it is sort of relevant to the topic.

Bow hit data records where arrows were found stuck in carcass. Deaths where any arrows are not visible or have fallen out are not recorded.

Regions currently designated:

Head (face, skull, top of neck) (suspect Instant occurs toward bottom of skull/face)

Shoulder (upper front leg)

Torso (area between front and back legs)

BackLeg (upper back leg shot from side)

Butt (area between back legs shot from rear)

Foot (bottom of any leg)

Bow wounds more severe than rifle wounds.

Compounded wounds observed. No reduction in death time observed with two shots to same area. Most severe wound type continues to dominate.

Additional: Observed two unexpected instant kills. Both times arrow found near suspected boundary of wound area. First on edge of Torso near start of BackLeg. Then on BackLeg near start of Butt.

OK

So I finally proved this. For Bears. Tested every combination on at least two different animals on at least two different maps confirming all results now in version 0.282. Two exceptions are: two hits to the head becomes Instant death. Occasional Instant death when hit is between zones.

Changed second entry to display bleed out times for each body part for each weapon.

Enjoy.

Preliminary Deer Data:

Targets:

Head = Head and Neck

Chest = Front Shoulder, Ribs, Abdomen

Hind = Lower Spine, Upper Back Leg, Butt

Leg = Spindly Part of any Leg

Bow / Rifle / Target / Instant%

10 Min / 45 Min / Head / 80%

15 Min / 4 Hours / Chest / 50%

40 Min / 4 Hours / Hind / 30%

2 Hours / 4 Hours / Leg / 0%

It is possible to hit a deer with an arrow and get body impact noise and/or blood spatter and not cause a wound. May be low shot bouncing up from ground, may be wing shots that just catch the skin. Either way, arrow does not stick and no blood is dropped.

Instakills seen in all but Leg. Instakills could be a random thing being more likely in sensitive areas (80% in Head), less likely in extremity (30% in Hind). Maybe should more likely with Rifle than Bow?

Bow definitely causes more bleeding than Rifle...

Preliminary Wolf Data:

Targets:

Head = Head and Neck

Chest = Front Shoulder, Ribs, Abdomen

Hind = Lower Spine, Upper Back Leg, Butt

Leg = Spindly Part of any Leg

Bow / Rifle / Target / Instant%

Instant / Instant / Head / 100%

40 Min / Instant / Chest / (0% Bow/100% Rifle)

45 Min / 1.5 Hours / Hind / (0% Bow/50% Rifle)

1 Hour / 2 Hours / Leg / 0%

Wolf runs for 15 minutes before slowing to his sad walk.

Instakills definitely seem more likely with Rifle than Bow. All hits to Head have been Lethal.

There is damage, but bleedout time is separate from the damage. When shooting animal you inflict damage and activate bleedout, bleedout does not decrease hp, it just kills the animal after certain time.

There is damage, but bleedout time is separate from the damage. When shooting animal you inflict damage and activate bleedout, bleedout does not decrease hp, it just kills the animal after certain time.

I do not dismiss the possibility. Please help me understand.

What damage have you observed to make this statement?

The only strangeness I've found is "Second shot to a bear's head always kills it". That does not seem to be random at all. Perhaps shooting a bear in the head is the one observable case of actual damage, each shot causing more than 50% such that combining two, independent of critical hits, always equal death.

There is damage, but bleedout time is separate from the damage. When shooting animal you inflict damage and activate bleedout, bleedout does not decrease hp, it just kills the animal after certain time.

I do not dismiss the possibility. Please help me understand.

What damage have you observed to make this statement?

Have you tried shooting a bear's non-lethal areas (butt, back, belly or side) four to six times in a row? This kills them as well.^^

Or take wolves for instance: If you manage to shoot one's head or neck with an arrow without killing it and it jumps you afterwards, one or two hits with a melee weapon will kill it on the spot. It doesn't make much sense (for me at least) that wolves go down much faster after being hit by an arrow if the only thing that said arrow does is applying a bleeding effect.

Don't get me wrong, I very much appreciate your data collection, but I would still interpret it differently.

Because if there was really only bleeding damage it should - to my understanding at least - be impossible to directly kill any animal with multiple bullets to non-lethal areas. Which it isn't. Put three or four bullets into the belly or butt of a deer or wolf of your choice and observe the results.

Because if there was really only bleeding damage it should - to my understanding at least - be impossible to directly kill any animal with multiple bullets to non-lethal areas. Which it isn't. Put three or four bullets into the belly or butt of a deer or wolf of your choice and observe the results.

Confirmed it the other way.

• Animals have hp
  
• Animals have bleedout time till death
  
• These do not affect each other
  
• Critical strike does 100 times the normal damage

New deer data for new deer model (v0.302):

Targets:

Head = Head and Neck

Chest = Front Shoulder, Ribs, Abdomen

Hind = Lower Spine, Upper Back Leg, Butt

Leg = Spindly Part of any Leg

Bow / Rifle / Target / Instant%

20 Min / INSTANT / Head / (50% w/bow, 100% w/ rifle)

25 Min / 45 min / Chest / 25%

40 Min / 1 Hour / Hind / 25%

2 Hours / 4 Hours / Leg / 0%