UpUpAway95

36 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

My two cents worth, think that loot tables are fine as they are, but what would be interesting is a Custom Random game. A Custom game, where every variable is randomly chosen, so you have no idea what to expect, at all.  Maybe it's low wolf spawn, high wolf fear, but Interloper wolf damage.  Maybe it's All Bears All The Time.  Maybe it's Pilgrim wildlife, but Interloper everything else.

This sounds like an interesting idea.

29 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

No bug, it is not a closed container, but an "in the wilds" spawn location. Notice the open fridge door? I just never found socks in there before, made me laugh. Still does. Reminds me of all thing weird things I, my husband, and my kids have put in the fridge at home, when we were tired or being very absent-minded. Keys, books, empty coffee mugs, dish towels, a cat toy or 2... lol! Sometimes you just set something down in an odd place. 

I didn't think about the door being open in the photo.  I guess the owner thought the shelf would make a good drying out rack.  I'm guilty of not looking much inside the fridges and ovens that have doors that are ajar.  I think I did spot a soda in one way back when, but after looking numerous times and not spotting anything, I just pretty gave up on doing it.

10 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

I found climbing socks in a fridge. 

Yes, found them there, I did not place them there. Funniest loot find ever, for me.  

Lol... well, I guess I hope it was a bit of bug.  I've only ever found meat or fish in the fridges in the game.  I applaud how this game has, for the most part, been able to keep loot spawns somewhat logical.  I honestly don't see it as a negative that I can logically reason that the most likely place for me to find matches is at a forge or a processing plant (although I did have an interloper run recently where I went to the processing plant looking for my "guaranteed" matches and wound up completely tearing that place upside down looking for them.  They simply were not there.  Ultimately, I froze to death, starving, inside the processing plant.  IMO, not finding something that you're counting on being there can easily be a run ender as easily as not being able to even remotely guess where loot might spawn.

34 minutes ago, loriaw said:

I can honestly say that after 2200+ hours of playing this game, I know what is under which dresser, and the most likely spawn points for high end items.  For that matter, I know where all the random containers are (the ones just lying beside a rock or tucked up by a tree trunk). It just is.

There is absolutely nothing that would ever really bring back that feeling of playing for the first time, but randomizing the loot would go a long way towards mitigating a player's knowledge of the maps. Stop leaving things such as books and the distress pistol in known places such as the Ravine or the plane 99% of the time ~ as an example. Those who play Stalker and loper because you love things made harder and because you're so good at the game should revel in such a world. People who've grown too familiar with the regions, have named most of the trees, and have hiking paths in mind for a new recreational area once things 'get back to normal' would love at least a glimpse of the great unknown we first stepped into. 

The bottom line is that the maps and regions themselves are mostly 'fixed'. Altering them would be difficult/impossible. Loot is already a random thing even with matrix tables to guide it. Why not completely randomize the stuff outside of guaranteeing the required percentage of certain items? It isn't a matter of just not picking up something ~ it's a matter of once again being able to say "I wonder what is in here" and honestly having no idea before you click on that container! 

I'm sorry, but i don't believe you because I notice things like corpses that were in a place on one playthrough not being there on the next.  Multiple deliberate tests of the revolver has definitively shown that it cannot always be found in particular locations.  Frequently found, I can buy.  Most likely found, I can buy; but guaranteed so that "you know" where to look for it.  No, I don't buy that unless you're talking about the 4 loot table spreadsheets a player devised for interloper that account for key items.  And I've already said twice, Hinterland could/should add more variations of those so that they are less easily tracked.  Ninety-nine percent of the time is not 100% of the time.  Adding loot tables rather than going 100% random spawn makes more sense to me in that a total 100% randomized spawn of everything in the game would mean that anything could spawn anywhere and in any type of container.  As I said, I don't want to find shoes in a fridge nor do I want a bunch of random containers lying out in the snow appearing all over the map like so much litter.  Those are my personal reasons for not upvoting this suggestion.  If you like it, then upvote.  I'm not stopping anyone from doing that.  There is no need to argue with me over my personal preference on this.

Addendum - I also like that certain classes of items don't ever spawn in certain classes of containers.  I don't really want to start find shoes in a freezer or a heavy hammer in a fridge.

57 minutes ago, Alphyrion said:

It's clear I won't convince you UpUpAway, but why are you trying to shoot this idea down so badly? What is the fuss about?

I just don't like the fact that when I arrive in a given house, I know exactly where to look for likely loot - under which wardrobe, on which bedside table, etc... and not only that - the most important items tend to spawn only in a limited number of locations that can be memorized (unless the game has introduced new spawn locations since I stopped playing about a year ago or so). It won't guarantee you'll find your bedroll at the first attempt, but if you check every likely location, you will - but by then your game will have turned into a series of trecks between know loot locations, at least on loper. I'd rather have a more random game - which better simulates the fully lost survivor scenario.

I'm only posting this thread because I love this game. In fact I created an account on this forum for this only purpose, in the hope that devs will consider it which would bring me back to playing. I just thought I'd share the idea with the community. If it's deemed a good idea, it can be considered. if it isn't deemed attractive to players, then it will be dropped. If it isn't practical from a coding point of view, it can be dropped regardless.

I'm saying that you can't guarantee the loot will be where you look despite your thinking that you can.  More than once, I've heard a Youtuber assert that this or that particular items is "guaranteed" to spawn in a particular spot... and then I've gone there and not found that item there.  For example, a possible place to find a revolver  (which is a placed item never found in a container) is under Gray Mother's bed... but I've tested this with several starts in Mountain Town on Pilgrim and that revolver is there only about 50% of the time.  Pilgrim is the most liberal mode for all loot spawns, but it's still not a guaranteed spawn.  In fact, there is even no guarantee a revolver will spawn in Mountain Town Region on Pilgrim.  I've had several of those starts that haven't had a single revolver to be found anywhere in the region.  It is as Raph responded, not 100% guaranteed unless it's 100% bugged.

There are limited placed sites and a limited number of housing plans in the game, so it stands to reason that you're going to be looking under the same sort of dresser or bed repeatedly.  Some regions only have one or two main sites, so even randomizing all the loot will not prevent those sites from being the major areas you beeline to find loot.  Then, there are a number of random containers you search through (cabinets, drawers, metal boxes and plastic containers).  The plastic and metal containers themselves are random spawns and may or may not be in any particular house on any given run.   I certainly don't want to see them add a bunch of containers lying around in the snow or a ton more corpses to make more sites for that random loot to spawn.

Interloper is set with the maximum number of empty containers, so the ratio of placed items to container items is highest in that setting.  You can already change that ratio by decreasing the number of empty containers and leaving the baseline resource availability the same.  It will add some loot overall to your game, but probably not enough to make a huge difference.   You can also alter the ratio of dropped items (e.g. items found by corpses) in a similar way. There are a few key items that will never spawn in a container (like a bedroll), but shoes and sweaters, tools, etc. will... So, by doing this, you should see fewer of those lying around in your "pet' spots since the tuning to the baseline resource availability should place them in containers instead.

I'm not trying to shoot down your idea.  I'm simply not voting for it and giving my reasons for not up voting it.  I already said they could possibly add more different loot tables to the game (something that I think will inevitably occur anyways as they add areas and new key items like the pistol).  You've only vaguely suggested that randomizing everything is a simple matter while still balancing things to ensure every run is at least viable; but to me, it doesn't sound like an easy thing for Hinterland to change at this point.  Therefore, I personally don't think it's worth it.

I do apologize if I became a little triggered by your use of the term "force us."

20 minutes ago, Alphyrion said:

I would never force anything on other players. what I'm suggesting is a "randomized item locations" option in start menus, nothing more.

There already is a custom setting that would increase the random spawns of items.  Start with the Interloper template and just decrease the chance that containers are empty.  Leave your base resource availability the same.  This will have an effect of increasing your finds in containers a bit. (so a little more loot available to you than in regular interloper, but all of it is random).  What it won't effect is the items that never appear in containers (e.g. the bedroll).  However, if you discipline yourself to investigate every place between your random spawn point you pass, there is a good chance you'll be dead before you ever reach such placed items anyways.

... and "force" was the exact term you used in your previous response to me.

Your suggesting the devs change their entire basis for the placed items in this game since containers are already totally random.  That doesn't sound like a small change to me.  If it's an optional toggle in the start menu, then it means the game would have to run using two different systems for loot placement.  That sounds like a recipe for a lot of bugs to me.  I don't think it's worth it.  I've played well over 1,000 hours in this game and I still don't know off the top of my head where my bedroll will be in any given interloper run.

7 hours ago, Alphyrion said:

Like you say, items only move between "a few different spawn points." My experience is that this means that on 'loper, you are basically following known paths between these likely spawn locations. 

I have never relied on loot matrices. Not even sure what they are. But I do know where to go next in loper to ensure I find matches and to make sure I maximize my chances of finding decent stuff. This semi-predictability reduces the unknown and "fear" element that you feel so much more in your first 10-50 hours of gaming. I just wish you had ZERO idea of what you might find, besides some expectation that will find more loot in bigger bases like farmstead at PV, the dam etc.. it would force us into new patterns of behaviour, and might force us to explore more of the maps.

The thing is, regardless of your knowing a likely location for some key items, there is absolutely nothing that says you have to allow yourself to just run to those predictable locations.  You can still play with a self-disciplinary rule in place that "forces" you to stop and loot every location you pass, even though you know/believe there will likely be nothing there for you.  The container loot is all random.  Loper is just set such that the odds of getting empty containers is higher, so it is still possible to find matches in any container you encounter.  You can also "force" yourself to explore more of the map as well by given yourself  alternate additional challenges.  Try mapping every single part of every map in Loper or delivering a newspaper to every house on the map.

You absolutely have no business trying to "force" the rest of "us" to do anything.  It's a single-player game.  I'm happy if the devs stay with their current system... totally random containers and some semi-random placed items.

There are a few crates in the Broken Railroad forge (Maintence Yard) that contain items:

One of the three on top of the plank ramp contains 3 or 4 different random items.  I've found an ear wrap there or gauntlets and often ammo.

The one near the bottom of that same plank ramp (but not the ones underneath it) contains dog food (usually 3 cans)

There is a crate near the cage entrance (the cage the ultimately leads to the washroom) that usually has accelerant or lighter fuel.

4 hours ago, Alphyrion said:

Loriaw - Glad you see my viewpoint on this. I just want this game to be as close to what the experience is supposed to be: i.e. a survival experience where you don't know your environment. I appreciate the maps can't be changed each playthrough (though that would be amazing! ;)) but surely item locations can. As it currently is, after a couple hundred hours of gameplay, I imagine that most people can figure out where stuff is likely to be - and especially the critical items like the hammer, saw etc.. they make such a difference in the game that you make darn sure you remember where they tend to spawn.

 

I appreciate the Dev replies, FrozenCorpse, thanks!! And also the suggestions on trying the custom game modes, PancakeLady. Will take a look.

 

But my no. 1 wish is for the clean pure sandbox experience, but with randomized items locations.

On survival, I've found that very few things are in a guaranteed spawn point... they tend to move around among a few different spawn points and it can be deadly and devastating if you're counting on a particular item being in a particular place and you trek all the way across different maps thinking that's where that item will be and it's not there.  People that use written loot tables on interloper can figure out what loot table they are on and, therefore, once they find one of the special items listed, know where the others are; but people who don't can make mistakes... and that can cost them their lives.  On lower difficulties where there is more loot generally, I doubt many people have figured it out precisely or have written up similar loot tables.  They could, I think, stick with the same system and just had a few more loot tables to make it seem even more random.  If they add more zones, I could see that sort of thing happening.

14 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

Sounds of Silence by Simon & Garfunkel for sure.  "And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made. And the sign flashed out its warning, in the words that it was forming.  And the sign said 'The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls, and the tenement halls, and whispered in the sound of silence."

Also while the music itself is a little too upbeat, the lyrics to the Beatles song Eleanor Rigby reminds me of TLD.  "All the lonely people, where do they come from?  All the lonely people, where do they belong?"

Edit: Mad World by Gary Jules too.  The main theme for TLD reminds me of it quite a bit.

Depending on what the full Wintermute story will wind up being, it's almost hard not to believe that "Sounds of Silence" didn't play some sort of role in inspiring this game.  When I first saw the scene just before the plane crash in Wintermute as Will and Astrid are finally trying to talk about their past, I was instantly reminded of a couple of lines from this song (out of order though):

"Hear my words that I might teach you.  Take my arms that I might reach you.  But my words like silent raindrops fall.  And echoed in the wells of silence."

"When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light, that split the night and touched the sound of silence"

10 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

My understanding is that it takes 70 wildlife "hits" to achieve level 5.  warning shots don't count for anything other than "frightening" wildlife

Thanks.

Is there any data yet on how many hits it takes to get the revolver skill leveled from Level 1 to Level 5 (with and without reading) and, separately, what it takes to get from Level 4 to Level 5?  Do shots fired as warnings count towards leveling up the skill in any way or is it just hits?

28 minutes ago, Tbone555 said:

I disagree whole heartedly with this statement. I refuse to just "not pick up" the rounds. Because this is a survival game and I'm going to use every resource provided to survive. That's my role as a survivor. It's hinterlands role to make sure survival isn't all that easy for me and I don't get TOO many resources

Then pick them up and hoard them someplace.  You still don't have to choose to shoot anything.  Even the timberwolf will be able to be killed with the bow.  It has to be that way since interloper has no pistol or rifle in it.  You're qualms shouldn't prevent a weaker player from having access to enough rounds to get to a Level 5 skill or even to just shoot more if they want to.  If a player wants to just use the pistol and not use a rifle or a bow, that's a choice they should be able to make... not encumbered by your sensibilities over there being some ammo lying around in the world.

It basically brings us back to the need for a custom setting that is specific to ammo because, by your scenario, it's going to take a wildly different amount of ammo available to make a crack shot feel like they're just surviving as opposed to the player who isn't a crack shot or who is opting to use the revolver as the scare tactic it's intended to be.  They are going to balance it to an average demographic.  If you want something more refined, you will have to use a custom setting.  Hopefully, they make such a custom setting available.

1 hour ago, Tbone555 said:

That's what I'm saying. Even if the timberwolves do balance the revolver rounds out, that means we're gonna pretty much have a survival shooter on our hands. And like I said before the long dark is NOT A shooter and never should be

I'm sorry, I don't see that unless you let the existence of the rounds in the world cause you to behave like you're in a survival shooter.  Nothing makes you pick them up when you find them.   Nothing prevents you from just sticking them away in an obscure cabinet somewhere and forgetting about them after you find them.  Having them potentially be there enables weaker players to at least have a chance at getting the skill to Level 5.

The bigger issue here that could change the identity of TLD is how many hits it takes to get the pistol skill up to Level 5.  If that number is large, that would make the game start to feel like more of a shooter.  If they keep is small, then it doesn't really matter how many rounds you find... just don't pick them and/or don't use them.  People who want to shoot more should have the option.  I don't care what somebody else does in their game.  It's a single player game.

An 8-dogpower engine - i.e. dog sled and team.

Seriously, I really like that there are no engines that can run in TLD.  I like the quiet with no industrial or manmade sounds going on.

I think I'd like them to focus getting all 5 episodes of story mode out first so that we don't start having competing story ideas or spoiling story ideas coming to survival.  After the Wintermute story is complete, then, yes, I'd like to see additional NPC's pop up in survival from time to time with there own little story to tell... perhaps even as DLC.

29 minutes ago, Tbone555 said:

100 rounds was an overstatement, of course. I should really refrain from using sarcasm in such a way when I know hinterland is gonna be reading this lol, I apologize. The more accurate number is 60 - 80. But do you know how many rounds I've found for my rifle? 12. That's a huuuuuge difference, for a survival game. Those two numbers for this game are the difference between day and night, and they've just made wolves a complete non threat. To be fair, in my experience flares don't work AT ALL on wolves anymore even when stepped on, so it is nice to have another reliable wolf repellent added.

Maybe timberwolves will balance it out. But let's look at what that means - if you have to use THAT many rounds of ammo to keep threats away, you're bordering on a shooter game. And the long dark is NOT a shooter game and should never feel like one.

If stalker players are getting 60-80 rounds on average per map zone and only 12 rifle rounds... and this is not just RNG... then it could mean that Hinterland has introduced a difficulty specific way to manage just the individual types of ammo because it's so much higher than the averages I'm seeing on the lower difficulties (even though the lower difficulties have consistently easier loot settings per their templates in the Custom menu.  All I"m saying is that, if that is the case, I hope they add that individual ammo setting to the Custom menu so that, if I want to play a Stalker game with the lower average revolver ammo spawn I'm seeing in Pilgrim, I could do it or if I wanted personally to play a Pilgrim game with the higher ammo spawns found in stalker, I could do that too.  What 'type" of TLD play is most enjoyable for you is not necessarily what it is for me on any particular given playthrough.  Custom settings have enabled a lot of different imaginative types of playthroughs... I'd like to see them expand it rather than start in with the sort of dogma that "this isn't this type of game" or "you shouldn't do that" or "it's cheating" etc.  It's a single player game.  We single players should be able to play it within whatever confines Hinterland wants to give us regardless of prefered difficulty level,

16 minutes ago, Tbone555 said:

Custom difficulty isn't excluded from my statement, I meant that aswell. Some people prefer to play the experience hinterland has hand crafted while others prefer their own rules, and that's fine too. But this is a game in progress where problems do arise with new updates and an uneven drop rate for a new item isn't as easily fixed as "just play custom sandbox."

This may or may not be intentional by hinterland. If it was intentional they need to hear the opinions of their player base until they give us an actual need to be finding 100 rounds per map, or if it's unintentional then it needs to be fixed.

I do think you've been lucky though at finding rounds because on my several starts testing the revolver spawns when it first came out, I never found more than 40 (correction 50) rounds for the revolver on any of the individual maps I cleared repeatedly on those starts (Mountain Town, Mystery Lake, and Coastal Highway - i.e. the major maps where loot is found).  The revolver itself was extremely rare since I frequently did not find one at all; whereas I was regularly finding 3 or more rifles in each map.  When I queried Raph on it, he basically said that the tuning was done over the entire game world and that the intent was that the revolver itself would be found with about the same frequency as the rifle, but rounds would be more common than the rifle.  My current playthrough (Voyageur), starting in Mountain Town and having cleared it has yielded in my finding : 2 rifles, 1 revolver, 35 rounds of revolver ammo and 25 rounds of rifle ammo, and no bow or arrowheads/broken arrows.  In other starts, I've found more rifle ammo than revolver ammo.  Make of it what you will, but that's how the numbers are playing out for me.  Never anywhere near 100 revolver rounds per map.

The Baseline Resource Availability for PIlgrim is Very High and for Voyageur its High.  It's Medium for Stalker.  Every other custom setting that controls loot is also more liberal on Pilgrim than on Stalker, so unless Hinterlands has introduced an ammo setting that's specifically higher for stalker, the only way I could explain your luck is luck.  If they have introduced a specific ammo setting, I hope they add that one into the custom settings as well so that individual players can control it individually.

18 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

In this game... not yet.

"If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all"
     - Albert King

Yep... while ribs were healing, I shot a wolf and l lost track of him in a blizzard as he was bleeding out.  Looked a bit the next day and gave up.  The next day I stumbled upon him and decided to harvest him up.  Meat was at 12%.  I cooked it and ate some - food poisoning bam.  Put some venison on to cook, took antibiotics, and decided to roll out the best and sleep for 1 hour.  Accidentally started a second hour of sleep instead of picking up my bedroll.  Burned the venison.  Decided to say frak it, and went to bed for the remaining 9 hours to get rid of the food poisoning... a glimmer of good luck... I actually woke up from that sleep with both food poisoning and ribs healed.  Went outside the cave and shot that dang moose dead! dead! dead!  Maybe now I'll have a run of good luck for a change.

57 minutes ago, Tbone555 said:

Well hinterland has crafted each difficulty mode to peoples specific preferences for that reason.

 

I would say that this is inherently false.  Hinterland has likely crafted each difficulty mode to a group preferences held by an "average" of certain groups of players (a demographic).  The custom settings are there so that individual people can fine tune those settings to better accommodate their individual specific preferences.  You're opting yourself not to use them... and that's fine.  If Hinterland wants to retune the revolver rounds to suit you and not me, I'm also fine with that... Hopefully, they will work it such that I can change it to how I like in in the custom settings then.  I have no qualms about using custom settings to enhance my own experiences in this game and I don't consider it at all to be "cheaty."   It just means I fall outside whatever "average" demographic they used for that particular standard difficulty level.

On 6/28/2019 at 3:53 PM, ManicManiac said:

Well now that I've read the Dev Diary, I may as well just get this on the table...

I want a Timberwolf Cowl so badly right now.

I think crafting this would be a fun addition to the game.

Nope... had it been me, that moose would have stomped me... actually that just happened to me moments ago in Milton.  All set to leave the region after looting everything, hides curing nicely, lots of saplings curing as well, got everything I needed but the Magnifying Lens so I was going to climb out to Mystery Lake to try to grab one from the Trapper's Cabin or Camp Office and then come back to craft.  On my way out, notice rabbit skins had cured, so I decided to head up to the trailer to craft the hat first.

Ah... the lure of them meeses... I told myself not to do it, but I just had to take a shot.  Now I'm stuck here until my ribs heal... dang Milton and it's climbing ropes.  Oh well, other hides should be cured in time so I should get all my clothes crafted before I head to Mystery Lake.  If the moose shows it's head again though, I will take it out first... now it's personal!

5 hours ago, Annajam said:

Right. I couldn't do that either. As it is the clock ( moon/sun meter) does not seem to be that accurate and trying to sleep through the night and the passing of time is kind of boring in and of itself. (just my Op)

 

Not sure what you mean by the moon/sun meter not being accurate.  In winter in the far north, the sun just doesn't rise on the shortest days of the year and in the summer, the sun never sets during the longest days of the year.  The length of days vary far more over the course of a year at the poles than near the equator.  Of course the game isn't going to emulate that.

What changes in the game is how many hours it actually lets you sleep out of the amount of hours you say you want to sleep.  In pilgrim mode, it will wake you if you get too cold, too thirsty, or too hungry.  It will also perpetually wake you when your tiredness bar gets more than about 3/4s full and you'll have to ask to sleep again to get to a point where you're fully rested.  This changes on higher difficulties where the game makes it easier for the player to mess up and die of cold, thirst, or hunger in their sleep.

On my 500-day run, I took most of those days taking my time working on the Faithful Cartographer achievement (mapping each zone) and getting myself familiar with the maps so that I my attempts at higher difficulty runs were easier because I generally knew where I was and where I needed to go to find shelter and supplies.  I spent the end of my run on Timberwolf mountain, making runs up and down the mountain bringing the loot down from the peak without goating my way down overencumbered.  It worked out pretty well... and my avatar jumped from the peak on day 500 without doing the pass time for days trick.

2 minutes ago, Annajam said:

Ok, yes that is true... but somehow I have a mental block to burning them. I guess that is why there are drawers full of them somewhere in hyperspace? So, when playing I tried to level up my person and fast as I could so I could hit something (at least with that aiming feature wandering all over??) because there was no telling if I'd find any of the books (RNG and all)... or should I say "... when I would find...? It was strange, one of the last I found before all was at 5... was one book (don't remember what the title was) that was 25 hours of read? Most of the other book were 12 or so hours if memory serves?

Yes, it takes a lot of luck and a bit of skill-up management to get the badge in one run, but most of the badges aren't really intended to be achieved in a single run.  Fire master takes 1,000 fires... that's a 1,000-day run lighting one fire every day.  On lower difficulties levels and in the zones where there are lots of houses and trailers, a savvt player can easily go a week without having to light a fire.  If you're playing at higher difficulty levels, there's a pretty good chance something will kill you long before you light 1,000 fires.