1000 Days in the Dam: An exercise in inventory control

[Vhalkyrie]

What a weird glitch!    I would have been really freaked out with the bear stuck that close to me!  Glad it all turned out ok - phew!

[Drifter Man]

27 minutes ago, Vhalkyrie said:

What a weird glitch!    I would have been really freaked out with the bear stuck that close to me!  Glad it all turned out ok - phew!

I wouldn't dare to leave the blind, that's for sure!

[Drifter Man]

Day 494 (452nd Day in the Dam)

To pass the time, I measured the cost of the character's movement with normal and overloaded backpack. I needed two calm days and the Raven Falls Railway Line: between the fallen tree and the broken bridge where you have to walk on just one rail, there are about 800-850 meters of more-or-less level terrain - measured using the game stats screen. I made three test walks in both directions (ca 1650 meters per each walk, or about one mile) with 29.98, 35 and 40 kilograms on my back*, and measured time and calorie consumption. Conclusions:

• 30 kg load: 292 Cal per hour, walking speed 1.22 kph, 239 Cal per kilometer
• 35 kg load: 305 Cal per hour, walking speed 1.09 kph, 280 Cal per kilometer
• 40 kg load: 320 Cal per hour, walking speed 0.96 kph, 333 Cal per kilometer

Note that the cost of standing still is about 125 Cal per hour. Each five kilograms of overload added about 15 Cal per hour and reduced walking speed by about one tenth of its normal value. However, these two effects combine, and the calorie cost of covering a fixed distance rises sharply.

*on my character's back, to be precise. If I tried to use my own back, there would be serious consequences.

[Vhalkyrie]

Here's what I'm curious about and haven't checked yet.  Does carrying weight less than 30kg burn fewer calories?  Theoretically it should.  But just wondering if they made it a flat rate of less than 30kg == 30 kg.

How did you calculate walking speed? Edit: Nevermind - I got it.  

[Drifter Man]

I made one more test today based on your suggestion:

• 17.56 kg load: 275 Cal per hour, walking speed 1.22 kph, 225 Cal per kilometer

Speed is not affected but there may be a slight improvement in calorie consumption if your backpack is light. Fatigue could play a role, though. I will do two consecutive tests-walks to find out.

[hauteecolerider]

@Drifter Man and @Vhalkyrie Thanks for exploring these things. 

I have long suspected that pack load affects calorie burn. I'm trying to get out of the habit of carrying everything with me when I go out for firewood or hunting - I just don't seem to need to carry can opener, pry bar etc. Not when I'm within a few hours of my base of the day. It's good to know that carrying less weight means less calories burned, which means I don't have to stock up so much on food . . . 

[Drifter Man]

4 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

I just don't seem to need to carry can opener, pry bar etc. Not when I'm within a few hours of my base of the day.

I only carry a can opener when I intend to open cans

Before leaving the Dam, I pause to think: what am I going to do outside? What tools and how much food do I need? In most cases I leave home with less than 15 kg on my back. For a deer hunt in the Ravine, for example: Pills and four bandages (about 0.60 kg), clothes (about 8 kg), a knife, a torch, a flare, a bow and two arrows (about 2 kg), 3-4 matches, usually 1 kg meat and 1.5 liters of water. Note this is just an example, it depends on what you are planning to do that day and what dangers you expect to meet.

Not only this saves calories, it also allows you to get things done faster, and leaves you with a greater reserve capacity. Plus many items degrade at a slower rate in a container than in your backpack. The tradeoff: sometimes you miss an opportunity, like when I found a maple sapling but had no hatchet - because I was out to bring bear meat from the Unnamed Pond to the Dam, not to look for saplings!

[hauteecolerider]

19 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Not only this saves calories, it also allows you to get things done faster, and leaves you with a greater reserve capacity. Plus many items degrade at a slower rate in a container than in your backpack. The tradeoff: sometimes you miss an opportunity, like when I found a maple sapling but had no hatchet - because I was out to bring bear meat from the Unnamed Pond to the Dam, not to look for saplings!

This!

[Drifter Man]

Day 501 (459th Day in the Dam)

I’ve survived for 500 days. Not that I attach much importance to such numbers – even my 1000-day goal is an arbitrary one and I have no intention to stop there. This as good a moment as any to take a break and look at the experience as a whole.

Objective:

Survive. Stay safe. Be prepared – have a safety net of backup plans and fallback positions. After 500 days, the life and death of my character matter to me, and it is fun.

Stats:

• 500 days survived.
• 42% of the world explored. I don’t go anywhere without a purpose, and I save the resources in the unexplored part of the world for later. This does not mean I do not enjoy exploration - in fact I always look forward to these trips very much.
• 6735 hours awake, 5435 hours rested. I sleep 11 hours a day. In my present situation, I prefer saving calories to saving cloth.
• 10019 hours indoors, 2150 hours outdoors. Indoors means “in the Dam”, for the most part. No hours rested outdoors.
• 1,474,656 calories expended, 2949 per day. No starvation – I want to eat one calorie per each one calorie I expend. Starvation is an emergency. Using its mechanic as a survival strategy is, in my opinion, not intended by the developers.
• 1220.7 km traveled. I rarely make long trips, but regularly leave to hunt and collect sticks.
• 95 wolf close encounters, 6 wolf struggles. I remember every single fight; four of them took place before ca Day 60.
• 206 bow shots taken, 180 hits. I expect arrows (arrow shafts, specifically) to be the first item I will run out of. Birch saplings are more precious than cloth.
• 11 rifle shots taken, 10 hits. I’ve only found 24 bullets so far – eight were fired in the early days and three were used in the recent bear hunt.
• 150 deer, 368 rabbits, 21 wolves and 1 bear killed (no fish yet). 1966 kg meat consumed. I harvest deer completely to allow them to respawn fast. I currently have 132 deer hides, 63 rabbit and 7 wolf pelts, one bear hide and 178 guts in storage.
• Found 6 can openers and opened 41 cans. Not sure that it signifies anything.
• Started 241 fires, about one every other day. The longest one burned 13 hours. By my estimate I've collected about 5000-10000 sticks.
• Suffered 17 wrist sprains, 19 ankle sprains, 10 cases of food poisoning and 3 cases of blood loss from wolf fights. One case of deliberately induced hypothermia, just to see how it works – for science.
• Survived 265 blizzards. Again, about one every other day. Statistically, only 47 of these caught me outdoors, but in reality probably much fewer than that (you don’t go out if there’s a blizzard outside)

Outlook:

• Cloth equivalent (incl. bedroll and clothing): 207.14 pcs / 533 days
• Bow (incl. maple saplings): 11.52 pcs / 1428 days
• Arrow shaft (incl. birch saplings): 30.81 pcs / 349 days
• Knife (incl. whetstone): 7.13 pcs / 1189 days
• Match: 90 pcs / 180 days
• Arrowheads: 4 pcs
• Flare: 6 pcs
• Hatchet: 4.64 pcs
• Lantern fuel: 7.32 liters

My outlook is stable for at least the next 300 days, although I see no reason to believe that I shouldn’t survive a thousand more. I have no plan to permanently leave the Dam until I have to. I’m confident that I can make it to Day 1000 with the resources found between Mystery Lake and Desolation Point alone, leaving other maps (including any future additions) for later exploration and exploitation.

The principal risk consists in the wolves and bears I encounter on my long distance trips and, of course, in game updates. If a cougar settles down in the Ravine map, I may have to make drastic adjustments to my lifestyle. I might simply leave the Dam in this scenario.

For the time being I'll probably be posting fewer updates because there are fewer and fewer things to report, although I have some "research" going on whose results I will share in due time. If I go unusually silent, I'm probably just mending my bedroll or skinning rabbits. My next trip is scheduled to about Day 650 and will lead me to Desolation Point once again.

[hauteecolerider]

Thanks to this thread, I'm making good use of the Dam and the Ravine in this Voyager play through (third one) I'm at Day 62 now and temporarily returned to the Dam after spending a few days in CH. I tried going there without a rifle, but lost an arrow and broke the other two out there, and I still haven't found one on the CH map. I've only been able to explore the two big islands, the Fishing Huts, and the Rabbit Grove. I have not yet made it to the Coastal Townsite, and I don't want to go there unless I have a gun. So I headed back to the Dam to recoup and to grab that rifle. I can always leave it in CH, as there is another one in the locker in the Dam.

I love it in the Ravine. Yes, it's a tiny map, but between the deer and all the wood, and let's not forget the handy cave, it's a cozy place to hunker down and do some hunting. I only kill one deer at a time, because it takes so much time and wood to cook the meat. So far I've only hunted when there are two deer in there. It seems to work out well for me. 

@Drifter Man thanks for sharing your experiences here! I've learned a lot from you and from @Vhalkyrie about surviving in this beautiful, freezing cold, harsh environment. 

[JoaoSatan]

Goob job man!!! I realy enjoy this. 

It would be interesting to know if the game updates will interfere with your save.. It would be a waste to lose this save..

The best of luck. And stay alive!

[Drifter Man]

Thank you for your support. I'm glad you are with me on this adventure and you found this thread enjoyable and useful.

[Drifter Man]

Day 517 (475th Day in the Dam)

I finally completed my "walking tests":

All tests were performed with fatigue bar above 50% (rested or winded) and with still or light winds that did not affect walking speed. Two consecutive walks with 22.27 kg load have shown that fatigue does not affect the results (this may not be true when the fatigue bar is below 50%, when carrying capacity is reduced). Walking speed is constant up to 30 kg load, then falls with increasing load. Calories per hour increase linearly with load both below and above 30 kg. Calories per 1 km are then determined by walking speed and calories per hour.

[Scyzara]

Wow, that's awesome! Thanks for testing and sharing your results!

Did you do the tests in your voyageur game?

I personally never noticed that the weight you carry influences your calorie consumption that much! Now I finally get an idea how it's possible that some people complain about having to eat half a deer per day. I think advising them not to walk around encumbered might solve some of their calorie problems. I'll definitely mention it in the future!

[Drifter Man]

Yes, everything is in Voyageur... deer will definitely be pleased by these findings, but the effect may not be so great.

Let's say I walk 4 km per day (that would be quite a lot of walking - actually, I walk just over 2 km per day). At 22 kg load I will need around 880 Cal, at 30 kg load around 960 Cal, at 35 kg load around 1120 Cal, plus I will lose about 20 minutes because of my reduced walking speed. So the difference between 22 kg and 35 kg is 240 Cal, and if I count in the cost of standing still for 20 minutes (125 Cal per hour), the difference will drop further to ca 200 Cal. That's 6-7% of my daily intake - I will still have to eat half a deer per day.

[hauteecolerider]

Hey, thanks not only for sharing your results, but putting it in graph form so I can see it and understand it better! 

No wonder I'm eating so much! Got to lighten the load!

[Vhalkyrie]

Aha!  So it *is* linear.  I intuitively suspected this - thanks again for confirming this.

[Drifter Man]

Day 527 (485th day in the Dam)

Did I say there's nothing to report? Did I perhaps think I know all there is to know about life in the Dam?

I've just discovered an area right next to the Dam covered with an insane amount of sticks. I had known already that many sticks can be found in two small areas next to the train bridge, but this was a third one that had escaped my attention for 500 days. Whether it is by design or bug, an incredible amount of sticks piled up there and it took me five trips to collect them all. About 600-700 sticks in total. I only had to click LMB and watch out for wolves.

Why is this important? Ever since I started to rely more on rabbits in my diet (to save arrows), I've been a little short of sticks. Just a little - I could easily cover the deficit by an occasional trip to the train bridge. But when I run out of arrows one day, I will rely on rabbits fully and my need for firewood will skyrocket. Without regular supply of large amounts of sticks, I would need to start using my hatchets to get wood - and spend another critical resource. If there is another area close to the Dam that is rich with sticks, survival in the Dam on rabbits alone becomes an option again.

I will return to the place in a few weeks to see how many sticks have respawned. 28 sticks per day are needed for a 100% rabbit diet, plus 7.5 more for water. My current mixed deer-wolf-rabbit diet requires 15 sticks per day for meat, plus the same 7.5 sticks for water. 

• Cloth equivalent (incl. bedroll and clothing): 195.94 pcs / 504 days
• Bow (incl. maple saplings): 11.30 pcs / 1397 days
• Arrow shaft (incl. birch saplings): 28.19 pcs / 319 days
• Knife (incl. whetstone): 6.96 pcs / 1160 days
• Match: 81 pcs / 160 days
• Arrowheads: 4 pcs
• Flare: 6 pcs
• Hatchet: 4.63 pcs
• Lantern fuel: 6.98 liters

[Vhalkyrie]

Wow!  Guess they have been accumulating for 500 days!  LOL

[hauteecolerider]

1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:

I will return to the place in a few weeks to see how many sticks have respawned. 28 sticks per day are needed for a 100% rabbit diet, plus 7.5 more for water. My current mixed deer-wolf-rabbit diet requires 15 sticks per day for meat, plus the same 7.5 sticks for water. 

For a second there I was thinking: Why do we need so many more sticks for a rabbit only diet versus a mixed diet?

Then it hit me.

One kg of rabbit has less calories than 1 kg of wolf or deer meat. 

D'Oh!

[Drifter Man]

2 hours ago, Vhalkyrie said:

Wow!  Guess they have been accumulating for 500 days!  LOL

I guess they have - but only in places around the Train Bridge. Everywhere else sticks seem to despawn unless you pick them, and new ones spawn instead. At the Train Bridge, either they don't despawn at all or the rate is out of balance - they pile up. I hope the devs are too busy to read this here 

[Drifter Man]

56 minutes ago, hauteecolerider said:

For a second there I was thinking: Why do we need so many more sticks for a rabbit only diet versus a mixed diet?

Then it hit me.

One kg of rabbit has less calories than 1 kg of wolf or deer meat. 

D'Oh!

And it gets worse: Rabbits come in a lot o small chunks. Average rabbit piece weighs 0.625 kg = 281 Cal. Average piece of venison weighs 0.947 kg = 758 Cal. But they all take 20 minutes to cook, meaning that you need 2.7 times more firewood per rabbit calorie than per deer calorie.

[Vhalkyrie]

5 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I guess they have - but only in places around the Train Bridge. Everywhere else sticks seem to despawn unless you pick them, and new ones spawn instead. At the Train Bridge, either they don't despawn at all or the rate is out of balance - they pile up. I hope the devs are too busy to read this here 

Nothing to see here...these are not the sticks you are looking for... 

[Drifter Man]

"Immersion" is the world often mentioned in these forums. I find this game "immersive" in that I forget about the rest of the world when I play it. I don't find it "immersive" in that I would think I'm actually surviving in frozen wilderness. I see The Long Dark like a tabletop game with a set of clearly defined rules. For example, flare is not an approximation of an actual flare - it is a group of game rules: 1) when lit, wildlife won't attack you, 2) once lit, burns for 1 hour and cannot be extinguished, 3) +3 degree temperature bonus. And so on.

One of the rules is that rules can change.

After a brief interlude in my old Pilgrim game, mainly to familiarize myself with the new interface and identify some of the changes, I'm returning to my Voyageur sandbox. A lot of research will be needed before I'm certain about my situation and outlook again. First thoughts, based on the v.321 (or v.325) changelist and a few tests, ordered by (perceived) importance:

• Refreshed wildlife spawning. I will have to check the situation in the Ravine, although it is not a "major region".
• Overhauled item degradation. I will measure degradation of clothes again and also check per-use item degradation. Meat may spoil at a different rate. This is also to be checked. Some degradable food items that I left untouched in Coastal Highway may now become unusable over time, effectively reducing the calories stored in my supply caches there.
• Matches do not degrade any more. I'm personally not very happy about this move. Match degradation forced me out to look for new supplies. Now I will switch to magnifying lens, only using matches when necessary. I can easily hoard a ton of matches that will last forever.
• No rest without fatigue. This removes the balancing of bedroll use vs calorie consumption.
• Torches have to be crafted (1/2 reclaimed wood, 1/2 cloth, 0.10 l of kerosene per torch). I don't need many of these, so this change shouldn't affect me much, but it could be important later when I'm forced to leave the Dam. The new torches still burn for 90 minutes but give +5°C bonus instead of 4. The bonus is constant even if the flame is dying down.
• Brands can be now taken from fire (30 minutes, +5°C bonus at the cost of 10 minutes of fire). Item description indicates they may not be as reliable a protection against wildlife. All in all, I like what has been done with torches and brands. Free torches weren't right.
• Flares and lanterns haven't changed as far as I can see.
• AI will ignore dropped torches. No more easy wolf pelts - I can't hit a fast-moving target, I don't have enough practice. Maybe I'll use bait instead. Hopefully I will need fewer pelts if the wolfskin coat degrades at a slower rate now. I like this, too, it removes a tactic that was considered a borderline exploit.
• Intestinal parasites could make wolf and bear meat a lot less attractive. These are not a regular part of my menu, but I will see for myself.
• Cabin fever should not be an issue, I'm no hibernator. The video states that it can be cured by staying outside for 48 hours. I keep a well supplied cave in the Ravine, just in case.
• Emergency Stim. I've never been in a situation that would require one. According to the video, it adds +15% to the character's condition. If I find one, I'll keep it.

The rest shouldn't affect my sandbox. It is definitely good to see the game moving forward. I have no doubt that the Hinterland team put a lot of work into this update.

[Drifter Man]

Funny. While thinking about torches and intestinal parasites I overlooked the proverbial elephant in the room.

All items in the world start degrading when the sandbox is started. I assume this means that all items in my world will start degrading once I resume my old sandbox. All degradable food items I haven't yet found and touched - at the Quonset station, at Hibernia Processing, in the crates on the top of Timberwolf Mountain - begin spoiling, starting today. When I set out for my next trip in a few hundred days as I planned, some or all of this food will be gone and won't support me out there. It's a lot of calories placed in advance where I need them most.

My objective is survival (for as long as possible), so there is only one correct course of action: to go out immediately, sweep all maps for all resources, then hunker down for thousands of days. Even if food spoils more slowly now, I'll be hurt by every day I put it off. I wanted to explore the world gradually, but the new system does not reward this approach. I'm forced to rush and greedily take all there is to take, now. But I don't want to play like this. What should I do?

1. To play the way I want and accept "punishment"
2. To follow the optimum strategy and rush out immediately
3. To quit this sandbox and join the "challenge troop"

I'll definitely test the new degradation rates first before making a decision, but I wonder what you think!