Update: A proper pupper (Idea/Wish)

[Mroz4k]

Thought more and more about this idea, I am going to refer to pup as a dog, as I dont think we could get away with it  being a wolf.

7 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Perhaps something like this might be best as a dedicated Challenge Mode.

That would mean putting a whole update´s work into a single challenge mode. Dont think thats likely. Would put a lot of work into a limited result.

I understand a lot of people would not like to have a companion of any kind in TLD, for the reasons most tend to state when argumenting against NPCs - that they enjoy that feeling of being "alone" and having a companion would break it for them. (personally I think most people would enjoy it in the end, kinda like me vs ammo crafting, been always hard against it, but I quite like it in the current game, the way it was handled). However, I would not make it a "customizable" suggestion, instead having it always in the game - because as was implied by @Mr. 0 you can just decide not to save the pup.

On 11/15/2020 at 6:22 PM, Mr. 0 said:

4. When you find a puppy, will be here option to harvest it? (Like limb or carcass)?

I get what you mean here, and what comes to mind is rabbit hunting with stones. I doubt it would be very popular option, but essetially, this is a game of choice, so if you decide to not help the pup, you could, in theory, put it out of its misery. Assuming you would find the pup wounded and alone, with maybe like its mother dead close, I think it would be humane thing to do.

I doubt you would get anything out of it, though. Assuming that wolf meat would be renamed to "canine meat", game could get away with it being a shared meat between dogs and wolves. Maybe 1kg of meat, no pelt, one piece of guts? I still doubt most people would do this, but you are correct there should be the option.

______

In the end, I proposed a lot of changes, so I may post another post after this and just organize my ideas on imrprovements a bit to be more like yours, @Pawsitive
Since it is pretty damn long post, I will put it under a spoiler.

 Back to pick up where I left off:

 

Stages:
Frankly, not a big fan of stage 1. It feels very video-gamey and not immersive at all. I think you could use the lift-up mechanics we have from Episode 3 to pick up  the pup early on if its wounded, to carry it somewhere to nurture it. Then you would nurture it back to health, checking its vitals and treating it the same way Astrid treats survivors in the Episode 3. This alone would be basically the "beggining" of the "quest" to befriend the pup, as it would build up that initial rapport. Animals are smart, they can feel out when you help them.

So, my proposed Stage 1 would be a mix between Stage 1 & 2:
The pupper is basically a little pup. It is a very easy prey for everything, but after its been treated, can walk around on its own. I love the idea that it would be a playful, chaotic stupid little pup - basically wandering around the survivor, without a care - instead of it being obnoxious stationary task of constant caring for, it would follow you around, but would be significantly slower then the player, which means you could carry it around, and would constantly try to get lost. Since it would be a dog, wolves would be hostile to it - means you really need to pay attention to it. 

I dont think there should be any buff. The reward here is that you are helping your pup grow up. Also I think you should be allowed to leave the pup behind, I imagine it would bark a lot and whine, like puppies do when you leave them somewhere and go outside. Using the bowls, you could leave it with some food, that would last enough to give you an option to leave for 2-3 days before returning and having to feed it again.The demerit to doing this comes from a fact that you are not bonding with your pup, which would make the process of training it even harder.

I dont think there is a neccesity to "attract wolves and bears" by barking indoors. It seems like it would require a whole new path of programming for wolves and bears to be attracted and keep interest in sound of barking indooors. That said - the little pup should be careless and should bark here and there. This could essentialy work like a thrown stone, with wolves and bears homing in on the location. I think these changes would get mostly rid of the "Game-like" mechanics and make the process more immersive.

That would be my stage 1, honestly. The Stage 0 would be caring for a wounded little pup, which is something that reminds your Stage 1.

Stage 2: After about 60 days, Id say go from the stage 1 to 2. The time for the pup to learn, just like you suggested.
I dont think the predators should neccesary attack the pup first. I believe it should depend on who the predator takes notice to first. With pupper having abit lower chance to be spotted due to being a canine, somewhat similar to wolves. That said, since its still a young, untrained pup, it should still bark here and there, especially if there is a reason for it - it notices a wolf, or is excited about something.

You suggested it needs to learn to hunt, and I would like to expand that idea of yours a bit. I think the process of training should go into more avenues then just hunting. And also, you would need to follow some progression there.

First, you would start training when pup is not completely filled on food, you would give it tasks (I imagine there would be a hud when you point to a pup to basically issue an order to it, like heel, Bark, go, stay, etc) and it would act as a skill. Aka early on, pupper is stupid, and he does not follow orders very well, or uses them differently. If he happens to do it correctly, you can pet it, encourage it, and even feed it - all of these actions would increase the progression of the bar. This would be a long and tedious process, but eventually, your doggo would skill up the same way survivors do... Since its a big bigger now, you can go hunting for rabbits with it, too. And basically using stones, you could teach it to go and "finish" off a stunned rabbit, and even fetch it back.

I will go over the commands which you did, and expand a bit upon them: You would activate the command by targeting the pupper with left click mouse button.
-Stay - the pup stays at the spot, if its inexperienced, will move about a bit, but esentially keeps to one area.
-heel - returns to player, and starts following them.
-Go - after selecting this option, then pointing to some direction and pressing left click again, will tell the dog to run to that direction. This is a more advanced task, learned by more experienced doggo.
-Bark - is a command to bark out, which acts like a stone thrown to various predators and attracts them into that area, or scares away passive wildlife. Useful for team-hunting when you can tell the pupper to sneak, go somewhere, and then bark to scare deer into your line of fire.

Hunting: You implied that a pupper would eventually "help you hunt" just about everything. That would be grossly imbalanced. What I think would be a safer choice would be that dog would initially be able to hunt rabbits the same way wolves do, but could benefit from tagging with the player, who stuns the rabbit with a stone, and doggo just runs over there to finish it, and fetches it back. This option of hunting would be available at Stage 2.
At Stage three, when the dog is basically the same size as regular wolves, it can take down a deer - but at some level of risk, he would basically run at deer, lung at its throat and take it down, but could get hurt during this action, because it is not big enough yet. It could also go toe-to-toe with regular wolf, but the outcome of that fight would be also very risky - injury would be certain, and if you wont help the doggo, it could even die. Helping it would mean either shooting the wolf (or dog, you could miss, so keep that in mind!) or coming up close enough to trigger a struggle, but where you have major advantage over the wolf. 

Injured pup would need to be diagnosed, and the injury is great enough, it would be reverted into the Stage 0-like behaviour. Basically same as passengers in Episode 3, you would need to carry and care for the doggo untill its nursed back to health.

At Stage 4, the dog reaches the size of a Timberwolf. It can easily take down deer at a much smaller risk of injury. It will tear down a single wolf, will always win the fight on its own, but may still get pretty badly injured and will require medical attention, for sure.

The dog should never be able to hunt bears, or moose. That is just not realistic.
HOWEVER
At stage 5, if you get mauled by a bear or trampled by a moose, while your doggo is nearby, it will run around the beast, gnash at it and bark - distracting the said Bear or moose. This basically allows you to "struggle" in the fight, and maybe make the bear, or a moose, run away for a bit, effectively ending the struggle earlier and prevent destruction of some items, or even the dreaded Broken ribs affliction. The struggle would of course also depend on the players physique.
With Timberwolves, the dog would snarl and bark, but stay close to player, and same as with bears and moose - if the player gets bitten by a timberwolf, the dog would bite it as well, lowering the morale a bit depending on the 


There could be more added, but these are the essentials, frankly. 

Back to your idea of stages:
Stage 3: I love the idea that a pupper would run towards the player for safety it if gets attacked. The "lets go home" mechanic is a bit unnecesary, I think it would be best if it werent there. For starters, you should bring a bowl with you when you go out traveling with the doggo, as you might just leave him for a while indoors, and will need to feed him. Also, some people like to play nomadically, and dont really have a home - this might be perceived as forcing people to "have a home". Finally, I would not like to see this used to locate home during dense fog, or blizzard, or during a pitch-black night. The game should keep its difficulty some way.

Climbing - kinda of torn here. I suppose having a harness made would make it possible to tie the doggo to the rope, then, once you climb up, you could drag it up after you. If Aurora made the doggo hostile, same harness could also be used to tie it down during a night for safety of both. Tying the dog down during its early stage of untrained pup would also serve as a good way to make sure it doesnt wander off into danger.

I like the idea of using the dog to track animals that are bleeding - this mechanic in TLD is in general quite awful currently, with the blood dissapearing too fast to really be able to track the animal down - if the dog was ordered to follow a hurt animal, it could run ahead of you, and then bark or howl to lead you towards it, thus help tracking down the animal escaping.

This was way too long and quite frankly, its not well organized. I might make a more conscise post eventually, with marking down what my suggestions for changes would be.

Overall, really loving some of the mechanics you came up with! Very original post, from what I saw of suggestions of canine companions in the past. Looking forward to discussing more on this topic!

[ManicManiac]

7 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Would put a lot of work into a limited result.

Like for instance, the Darkwalker challenge we are getting in December, or the Hunted Challenge (parts 1 & 2)?
I'm just saying there is precedent for this kind of thing.  I'd rather see an animal companion in story mode or a challenge; not in survival

The reason I prefer the Survival Sandbox the way it is... is very simply that I think NPCs (this would include an animal companion, in my opinion) belong in the Wintermute Story Mode, or possibly in a Challenge Mode.
I like the lonely isolation of my Survival Sand box, and I think an NPC or animal companion would undermine that.

Another reason, is that I think that if we had an animal companion... then we might have a hunting partner, or even to a limited extent a protector.
I don't like that idea because it makes life easier for the player... and I'm rarely in favor of things that would make life easier for the player.

Let me please reiterate that I'm not against the idea  of an animal companion... I just don't want it in my Survival Sandbox. 

[Addendum]

9 hours ago, Pawsitive said:

Just give the player the opportunity to disable the dog-stuff in a sandbox. Problem solved.

Fair enough.
Like I said, I just wouldn't want it in "my" Survival Sandbox.
A custom setting option?  Fine by me; as long as I could opt-out.

Edited November 17, 2020 by ManicManiac
added addendum

[Pawsitive]

I'm quite busy right now, sorry for the short answer.

In a few days I will take me time for this thread again

[EjectedCasings]

On 11/16/2020 at 5:55 PM, ManicManiac said:

Perhaps something like this might be best as a dedicated Challenge Mode. 

One where we come across a badly injured canine calling out for help...
The main focus of the challenge being not only to nurse it back to health, but also to see how long you can survive with an extra mouth to feed.

I'm not sure I'd like the idea of this being added into the Survival Sandbox (much for the same reasons I wouldn't want human NPCs to invade the Survival either).  However a challenge featuring this I think could be really nice.

There are challenges already that aren't time dependent (The Hunted, Part 1 and As the Dead Sleep for examples)... meaning one could potentially keep the same Challenge run going for a very long time.

This is pretty the only way I see it being implemented. I think that the whole puppy idea, while fun, goes against the core ideas and beliefs of the survival sandbox. one of the main themes of the game is loneliness. No people. Every living thing is "alien" in a way. Everything is either afraid of you and against you. And that is one of the main things that sets this game apart from others IMO. This isn't even mentioning the technical limitations and challenges in implementing some kind of companion. 

As for gameplay, I also don't really think it'd work. I kind of share @ManicManiac's approach of things that make things easier for the player should be avoided. Balance in video games is pretty tricky, and it's very easy to tip the balance between too easy, and too hard.

That being said, I like Manic's idea of something similar being made into a challenge. That, I think is a cool idea.

All in all, it's a fun idea, but I don't think it fits in the game. To each their own though, whatever floats your boat.