Intestinal Parasites

[HazardousHowitzer]

I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to put this topic, there were no places that really fit completely. I added the tag "discussion" if that helps. I'm saying sorry because of this, because under your guidelines it says not to post under the wrong category.

 

I just got Intestinal Parasites with a four percent risk. I've got to say, I'm incredibly shocked. I thought it was like cabin fever where if you got to 100% you would get the full affliction. Apparently not. So four or five days past, I very luckily had a stockpile of Reshi mushrooms to keep me from dying. I've noticed that with improper care, this could screw you over in the hardest way. An unprepared player could die in a heartbeat from this. What occurs (if you haven't found out yet)

• Over a course of ten days you have to take antibiotics. You have to take one or two each day.
• If you do not take antibiotics you're max energy will go down, and not slowly. You cannot regain this until the ten days are over.
• If you do not take antibiotics (I believe) you die like any other affliction. Gladly, I haven't had to figure that out.

So with that, you can very easily die without the supplies. You might sleep for ten hours and just two hours in you get the parasites. You've just skipped eight hours of time, where you were supposed to have taken antibiotics. That's a lot of your energy bar that you cannot get back until the ten day mark. As your energy goes down, so does your condition, though this can be brought back up. If you don't have wood, food etc... it will be harder to get them because you are always tired now. If you get tired enough because of the affliction and now can't get your energy bar back up, your max carry weight is down. Cabin fever will become an issue as you don't want to go out with no energy. There's a number of things that make you certain to die with this affliction. Having to take 20 (it might actualy be 10, but that's still your whole supply early game, if you even have that much then) pills, well... you might not be able to. I created this as a place to disscus Intestinal Parasites. What you would like to see change, what's good ways to prevent it (not eat wolf meat or bear meat I know). 

Go ahead and say your opinion. Do you like how it is, do you think it's balanced difficulty, or is it too hard for new players? Say what you think. I don't want them to get rid of the feature if that's what you're thinking.

 

[mystifeid]

Just don't eat wolf or bear meat until you have level 5 cooking skill and you will never get parasites.

If you are lucky though, @Dirmagnos will show up and have one or two things to say about them.

[HazardousHowitzer]

Well, I understand that and I tend to avoid that meat. Especially now that I'm seeing the effects. But the effects in particular, of parasites, are what I'm talking about. 

[mystifeid]

There's a shedload of Reishi mushrooms in the game aren't there? I tend to like anything that gets people moving and out of their comfort zone but it's been a very long time since I've had parasites and it's hard to remember what it was like.

[HazardousHowitzer]

Let me fill you in.

Out of no where you get it, very unexpectedly. You have to use all your antibiotics (not just the pills in particular, I mean the tea too). If you forget to take a dose, or sleep through one too many times, you no longer have any energy and you're always tired. It gets harder to get "out and about". You can't escape animals, you can't carry anything. Your more likely to get cabin fever because your most likely in your home more. It takes up ten days. If you don't have a food supply, and a wood supply, and a medicine supply etc... then it's not easy and it's long. I'm making it sound really bad I know. It's actually easy to recover if you have everything. Not fun though

[mystifeid]

1 hour ago, HazardousHowitzer said:

Not fun though

Sounds good. Might have to go get me some.

Anyway I'm totally the wrong person to be talking about this so I'll butt out.

You've got me wondering though, whether it's possible to survive without ever eating deer, rabbit or fish ...

[HazardousHowitzer]

It would certainly decrease how many days you'd survive. Well... That might not be entirely true. When you eat a piece of meat your risk goes to 1% and then another piece brings it to 4%. I lasted 30 days without getting parasites with a normal of 1-4% risk every day or every other day (it varied). Maybe using that starving yourself and eating before you sleep tactic could let you live. A piece of wolf meat is 720 and a bear is 920 (it changes obviously with your skill). That's enough to last through the night and by the time your ending the day, the parasites risk would have passed. It really comes down to your luck. If that 1% chance of getting parasites happens, that's a lot of your resources right there. I think it's possible but it's about luck and chance with that. It would be hard to go long term with those risks, because you are bound to get them eventually. 

I actually just remembered something by the time I'm finishing typing this, you actually said it before too. If you don't get a bad chance early on with the parasitic meat, you'll eventually get your cooking skill up high enough to where you won't have a risk of parasites anymore. So it's possible... Just harder.

[mystifeid]

What happens if you keep eating wolf/bear meat while you have parasites? Do you immediately get them again when the ten days are up?

[HazardousHowitzer]

I haven't dared to try. I don't have enough Reshi tea for the rest of the 10 days and I'll have to use some of the actual pills. I can't get it again, I'll have no antibiotics. I might not even have enough for a second time. I have a stockpile of bear meat, a little wolf meat and a LOT of dear meat. I've been setting up snares behind my homebase, there's loads of rabbits. I had three dear right outside of my house a few days before I got the parasites. I killed one with a bow (again thank you), then the bow broke. The next day I killed two of them with the rifle, right next to eachother! I got all the furs except the bedroll, I'm just waiting for the last bear hide to cure. This life is going really good. I'd hate for some itty bitty parasites to end it all lol.

I'd imagine it stacks. You know how you can get multiple infection risks? It's probably the same way.

It's funny. This is the same life that I had no lantern, no rifle. I started in pleasent valley and was going to die if I didn't leave. So I was walking around the map looking for buildings to get food and I instead found a mine/cave. I went through the whole thing using brands, almost died at the dam when I couldn't find the way to get to the top, and there were two or three wolves. I eventually made it and now I'm doing great. I love this game. It's always against you, but it's never impossible. I've came close to dying a lot this run, I thought I was going to get stuck in the cave with no light one time. It's fun though. I love it.

 

[cekivi]

Note that a 1% chance is not the same as 0%. One out of a hundred times you will get parasites.

[HazardousHowitzer]

@cekivi obviously. But when you eat the meat every day, even when it's only a 1-4 percent chance, you're still rolling the dice that many times. On your 50th piece you're gonna be getting it more likely. 

[mystifeid]

I blew the first game and had to start again. In interloper it takes me usually 15 or more days to get a bow and start hunting so it's a fair investment of time just to start trying this.

Anyway I've nearly finished eating my second wolf and still no parasites. Strangely enough I found a (live) wolf exploit though.

What I've noticed so far is that if I eat two pieces of meat immediately before sleeping my risk of parasites becomes 4% and stays that way for the next 24 hours or so. If I eat another two pieces of meat the following night before the previous risk has abated then my risk increases to 14%. However in the first hour of sleep all risk disappears and I wake up with no risk of parasites. Bizarre!

[mystifeid]

Day 26 - back in Crumbling Highway - six wolves killed and cooked. Still managing to alternate between one day with 4% risk and one day with no risk even though I eat wolf meat every night. Still no parasites. Still have eaten no other meat (or fish) - even from spawned deer carcasses. I will try upping the ante when I get back to Coastal Highway.

[mystifeid]

Day 35 - Wolves have destroyed all crafted clothing - principally caused by being jumped one night without warning. Surviving has become...interesting.

For the last nine days I've been eating three pieces of meat at night. This raises my risk to 9% the next day and 24% on the second night before again dropping back to zero on the following day.

This has finally paid off and I now have parasites. Continuing to eat wolf/bear meat (I killed a bear) seems to have no effect now and it appears I can gorge myself with impunity.

Just have to hit the road to find enough Reishi's.

[HazardousHowitzer]

48 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

Continuing to eat wolf/bear meat (I killed a bear) seems to have no effect now and it appears I can gorge myself with impunity

Good to know. 

[mystifeid]

Day 44 - No pants or mittens for ten days. I've painstakingly made my way back to the dam in Mystery Lake, hunting and skinning along the way. All necessary hides are curing.

I ate my last piece of tainted meat last night so must either find a wolf to kill today or dip into my cat tail reserve. It grows increasingly difficult to let deer run past me.

Apparently recovery from the parasites is to take twenty days and so far I have taken ten doses of either antibiotics (2 pills/dose) or Reishi tea. My maximum health has been reduced by 19% and my maximum energy by about a third. Looks like I'm going to be getting tired very quickly by the end of the treatment.

The best thing about having parasites is being able to sleep for as long as I want. As long as I have either a bed or bedroll there is never any need to spend the extra energy on passing time.

Already I have nearly enough mushrooms to complete my treatment and all I really need now is to find some food with bad attitude.

[Dirmagnos]

Parasites are stupid and whole feature implementation is idiotic. It neither solves underlying problem, nor it is even remotely realistic or necessary.

Main issue with wolves was that they were way to easy to kill for even remotely experienced player. Providing player with decent supply of meat. Instead of upping wolf strength we got parasites to penalize players for eating carnivores meat.

At the same time obtaining meat from non-carnivores has been becoming progressively easier and more profitable, making hunting wolves or bears, especially bears, an obsolete way to obtain meat. Bears in particularly in a bad spot for 2 reasons: their hides are only used in one recipe and considering amount of meat that they yield, due to those idiotic parasites, half of it simply will go to waste. All while both trapping and fishing become far more easier way to keep oneself fed. Far less resource consuming and completely risk-free. Player can just fish indefinitely from one fishing hut.

Parasite implementation itself is completely off the rails, from every side. While carnivores have higher risk of parasite that herbivores, since former eat latter, that risk is not that much higher and herbivores are not risk-free either. Following most basic logic, if carnivores in the region have parasites, they they only can get them from their prey, yet in game deer or rabbit are completely parasite free. And on the side note, in reality fish have higher chance to carry some kind of parasite as wolf and since their preparation takes less time its also higher chance of infection.

On top of that proper thermal processing should kill 99.9% of any parasites. And 20 minutes of cooking do qualify, as its over twice the time that is recommended by USDA. Speaking of in game this "feature" has extremely weird implementation, that seem to be a rule in terms of parasites in general, as cooking have no effect, then some more no effect, then some more and then bam, level 5, complete immunity for everything. WTF ?!

Plus, similar issue with duration. That is 24 hour per "risk", with hourly checks. Firstly, eating a piece, waiting 23 hours and then eating one more does nothing to that duration, it will still expire in an hour and it most effective way to deal with this issue. Second is perverted progressive nature of this infection risk - why its first 1%, then 4%, then 14% ??!?! And third is 24 hour duration itself. Meat is heavy "fuel" and digesting it can take up to 5 hours, depending on method of preparation and amount. From where that 24 hour idiocy came from ? Why it does hourly checks hours and hours after meat consumption ? WTF !?!?!

In addition to that who parasite condition is weird as hell. Once player contracted condition, he can eat and eat and eat carnivores meat with no penalties from that point on. For next 10(or more) days player suddenly becomes completely immune to parasites, aside of condition that he already has. No aggravation of condition, hell, not even extension of it.

Then there is another facet of balance issue. Amount of non-renewable resources that are associated with carnivore hunting and consumption is insane. To fish player needs gut for line and scrap metal for hooks. Usually with one hook, especially on high levels, player can catch enough fish to last him up to several weeks. Guts is easy to obtain from rabbits, and metal scrap, while finite, is fairly abundant, especially comparing to arrows/bullets. And trapping is literally infinite. Gut and reclaimed wood. While reclaimed wood is finite, player actually gets it back when snare is dismantled; and gut come from same rabbits that player catches. Considering that each snare is good for at least couple of rabbits, its infinite way to keep one fed. Plus both of them are stationary, player doesnt have to go somewhere in the woods to look for prey(unless hes deer hunting). Combine fishing with trapping and all player needs are met. Combine it further with eat-once-before-going-to-bed exploit(and the fact that one of the core values of the game, condition, require next to no maintenance, as player can recover from the brink of death in just one night sleep), that has been around for ages and still not a whiff from devs about fixing it(and numerous others), player can go into meat surplus with ease. No need to maintain condition, combined with ability to use eating exploit and no threat from carnivores, its easy life.

In comparison hunting carnivores require a boatload of supplies, from every category. With fairly low return in comparison. And most of those supplies are extremely finite. Curing just one(maybe two, if lucky) instance of parasite infection takes whole map worth of resources. Then there is issue of blood infection. Both of those are guaranteed to be lethal if not cured and there is no way to passively get rid of them, like with sprains. Plus weapons, plus ammo for those weapons(and increased weight as side-effect). Even meleeing wolves, in addition to almost guaranteed need for antiseptic, also means trashed clothes, that yet again, require sewing kits, that are in limited supply. None of those expenditures are associated with trapping or fishing. In general, over past several months hunting has been becoming progressively less viable and trapping/fishing combo progressively easier in terms of obtaining food. To the point that they are no even comparable in terms of efficiency.

So, yeah, i do have issue with this feature. With every aspect of it. Since its broken from every side.

[mystifeid]

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

So, yeah, i do have issue with this feature. With every aspect of it. Since its broken from every side.

I'd have to agree that parasites sux but knew I could never express it as comprehensively as you!

Just have to wrap up the last instalment...

Day 54 - I wake up in the middle of the night, as is my habit, to drink my Reishi tea. It is the last dose.

I've moved to the Camp Office for it's proximity to my allowed food - wolf and bear. I killed the bear five days ago and managed to harvest 15kg of meat from it by lighting a -1C fire with all the wood I had and by drinking cups of tea.

In preparation for my final dose I have just eaten 2500 Calories of bear meat. My maximum health has been reduced by 38% and my maximum energy has been reduced by around 80%. I wake up in the mornings already drained. When traveling anywhere 40% health has come to seem normal.

Will there be any residual or carry over effect from all the extra wolf and bear meat I've eaten?

I drink the Reishi tea and get a clean bill of health and after nine hours of sleep I reward myself by finishing my wolf skin coat at last.

If I get parasites again in the near future though, it will be the end of me. So I concede. I capitulate. I give in. I can't face it again. Having wolf and bear as the only meat source is  difficult enough without the added threat of parasites. Also I think in this game I've killed more wolves with my knife than my bow and it seems every one I've struggled with has taken 50% off my clothing.

As for the parasites themselves, they are a gnarly affliction without peer in the game. Nothing else comes close to the long term dramatic effect they have on survival. Getting cabin fever at the same time is a very minor extra inconvenience. One wonders why they were given quite so impressive characteristics. Shock treatment perhaps. After having them once you'll think twice about eating carnivore meat again. I know I'll never do it again without level 5 cooking.

[cekivi]

14 hours ago, HazardousHowitzer said:

Good to know. 

Yes - Once infected you can eat meat with impunity. You can deliberately stop the "cure" before the last day to eat parasite ridden meat until your cooking skill is at level 5, take the last dose, and then never worry about parasites again. If you feel you need the condition boost you can take the last cure at any time. As @Dirmagnos said, parasites need a little re-working.

[mystifeid]

4 hours ago, cekivi said:

You can deliberately stop the "cure" before the last day to eat parasite ridden meat until your cooking skill is at level 5, take the last dose, and then never worry about parasites again. If you feel you need the condition boost you can take the last cure at any time.

It's a nice thought but it would have been tricky for me at 60% max health and 20% max energy. The next wolf struggle would have been the last.

I noticed one extra thing not mentioned above and that's a sound of distress made by my character that I can't ever remember hearing before - almost like she was constipated and was trying really hard to punch one out. Do parasites do that to you?

[HazardousHowitzer]

Constipated? No lol. I didn't hear that with the guy character. I don't think parasites make you constipated. They eat everything you eat. Well, that depends on what kind of parasite actually. But if they eat what you eat, you don't have anything to be constipated over. Was it the sound that it makes for food poisoning? Sorry if this isn't making sense, my cat had kittens and one of them is on my arm, it's harder to type and I don't want to wake her up.

[mystifeid]

5 minutes ago, HazardousHowitzer said:

Was it the sound that it makes for food poisoning?

Pretty sure it was different. Freaked me out the first time I heard it.

[cekivi]

7 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

It's a nice thought but it would have been tricky for me at 60% max health and 20% max energy. The next wolf struggle would have been the last.

I noticed one extra thing not mentioned above and that's a sound of distress made by my character that I can't ever remember hearing before - almost like she was constipated and was trying really hard to punch one out. Do parasites do that to you?

It really depends on the parasite. A tapeworm just eats what you eat decreasing your nutritional intake making you tired and weak. Giardia on the other hand will make you yearn for constipation. However Giardia is water borne and I don't think tapeworms can survive winter (don't quote me on that) so I don't know what parasites would be in wolf meat in the game.

@HazardousHowitzer: Kitties!

[HazardousHowitzer]

Wow. This is very unfortunate. I have a 75% chance of getting intestinal parasites. It's been over 50 days since I got it before. I don't have enough mushrooms or pills to treat this... I only ate two pieces of bear meat, which should bring it to 4%. But I somehow have a 75% chance. I went to eat a piece of venison and ate a raw bear steak I brought as a decoy, if it's raw does it bring it up greater? What an unfortunate end this might come to be. I had a great run going too, 88 (I think) days and had a ton of supplies. I crafted arrow heads, I had 30 rounds of rifle ammo, tons of food.. I had snares, a big supply of meat. No, it isn't had though. It's have. It's not over yet.. 

[Viktor Kvasnica]

9 hours ago, HazardousHowitzer said:

No, it isn't had though. It's have. It's not over yet..

That is a right stance - do not give up, never. Make finding a sufficient amount of the reishi mushrooms or antibiotics your top priority and you will make it.