Ideas for making the game a bit more challenging and also fun

[enraged_camel]

Been playing since Dec 2015. Here is my feedback... some of this should be easy to implement, while others will probably be out of scope (but possible maybe with a DLC later):

• General:
  • There should be an option to keep the Survival Tab open at all times. Holding down Tab is too annoying, especially since Shift+Tab opens the Steam Overlay so you can't run and monitor your stats at the same time.
  • It should not be possible to search containers when it's dark.
  • You should be able to light your torch using an ongoing fire, such as a camp fire.
  • Non-covered fire sources that are indoors should cause fatigue loss due to unmanaged smoke (lack of chimney). Think about it... you're lighting a fire barrel inside the gas station store... what do you think will happen? You'll smoke yourself out!
    • Similarly, if you sleep with such fire sources on, you should die from carbon-monoxide poisoning!
  • It should be possible to "reinforce" beds and sleeping bags with extra clothing (or a craftable blanket) for extra warmth.
  • Trailers should provide a lot less shelter from cold weather (somewhere between fishing hut and regular cabin).
• Sleep:
  • You should be able to sleep on couches, but the recovery rate should be slower.
    • There should be some cabins where the beds are in an unusable state or the bedrooms are inaccessible or hard to access (e.g. with a prybar).
  • You should wake up automatically if you get too thirsty, hungry or cold. It makes sense, right? That's how it works in real life! Simply "fading to the dark" is pretty silly, especially since you don't see your Survival Tab while sleeping.
  • You should not be able to fall asleep if too thirsty, hungry or cold. This adds a requirement to take care of basic needs first before sleeping.
  • EXCEPTIONS:
    • If your endurance is completely drained, then not only should it be possible to fall asleep while thirsty/hungry/cold, but it should also be possible to die while asleep due to starvation or hypothermia. This adds an additional risk factor to complete exhaustion, and encourages players to not ignore it completely.
    • Also, if you have blood loss, dysentery, infection or hypothermia, there should be risk of dying in your sleep instead of waking up automatically due to hunger, thirst or cold.
• Fatigue & Stamina:
  • When you're completely exhausted, there should be risk of passing out and waking up a few hours later... or not waking up, if out in the open.
  • Sprinting uphill should be very taxing.
• Food
  • Eating the same foods over and over should have diminishing returns, possibly with a temporary affliction attached (e.g. "Sick of Beef Jerky") that reduces the effectiveness of that food for a while until other types of food are consumed. This encourages a healthy, varied diet.
  • You should be able to shoot, kill and eat crows. Calorie gain should be minimal (100-200), making it an option for desperate situations only.
  • Toilets should give you unsafe water, not potable water. They are toilets! It's not like anyone has cleaned them since the apocalypse.
• More Items
  • A compass that adds a compass to the HUD overlay.
  • Binoculars that let you see long distances.
  • Unmarked topographical maps of each region that you can mark up and take notes on.
  • Shovels, used for:
    • Letting you dig holes in the snow to store food. These holes should act as containers and should prevent food from perishing, but add a requirement to thaw it on a fire source before consumption.
    • Accessing snowed-in buildings. It should cost you 30-60 minutes and some fatigue to dig a path to the door.
  • A mountaineer's backpack that increases your carrying capacity by 10 lbs, but slows you down and increases the stamina cost of sprinting.

[Wastelander]

Welcome to the forums! We're a weird bunch in these quarters but we're good at heart 

25 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

• There should be an option to keep the Survival Tab open at all times. Holding down Tab is too annoying, especially since Shift+Tab opens the Steam Overlay so you can't run and monitor your stats at the same time.
•  

Oh yeah, the Steam overlay is just plain annoying.

26 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

• It should not be possible to search containers when it's dark.
•  

I disagree, since you can feel items anyway, and outside of mines it's never literally pitch black. Should take more time though!

26 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

• You should be able to light your torch using an ongoing fire, such as a camp fire.
•  

We can't? Seems like a bug, I think I recall that I did that at least once.

27 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

Non-covered fire sources that are indoors should cause fatigue loss due to unmanaged smoke (lack of chimney). Think about it... you're lighting a fire barrel inside the gas station store... what do you think will happen? You'll smoke yourself out!

• Similarly, if you sleep with such fire sources on, you should die from carbon-monoxide poisoning!

 

Depends on the kind of fire. I do agree on the gas station, but stoves have functioning exhausts.

28 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

• You should wake up automatically if you get too thirsty, hungry or cold. It makes sense, right? That's how it works in real life! Simply "fading to the dark" is pretty silly, especially since you don't see your Survival Tab while sleeping.
•  

Oh yes, my dreaded night-drink IRL. I wake up at least twice per night just to get a glass of water. Agreed on that!

29 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

• You should not be able to fall asleep if too thirsty, hungry or cold. This adds a requirement to take care of basic needs first before sleeping.
• EXCEPTIONS:
  • If your endurance is completely drained, then not only should it be possible to fall asleep while thirsty/hungry/cold, but it should also be possible to die while asleep due to starvation or hypothermia. This adds an additional risk factor to complete exhaustion, and encourages players to not ignore it completely.
  • Also, if you have blood loss, dysentery, infection or hypothermia, there should be risk of dying in your sleep instead of waking up automatically due to hunger, thirst or cold.

Devilish, I like it.

29 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

Food

• Eating the same foods over and over should have diminishing returns, possibly with a temporary affliction attached (e.g. "Sick of Beef Jerky") that reduces the effectiveness of that food for a while until other types of food are consumed. This encourages a healthy, varied diet.

 

I have to disagree on that one, at least if you mean calories. Food always has the same calories, whether you like said food or not (that's why college students can survive off of ramen for years ). If you mean the upcoming wellbeing system I'm 100% supporting your idea!

30 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

• • Toilets should give you unsafe water, not potable water. They are toilets! It's not like anyone has cleaned them since the apocalypse.
•  

The water likely comes from the tank, not the bowl. The water in the tank is perfectly safe drinking water, the same water you shower and cook with IRL.

31 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

• • A mountaineer's backpack that increases your carrying capacity by 10 lbs, but slows you down and increases the stamina cost of sprinting.

So, uh, the same effect of traveling overencumbered? I do agree on the backpack, but that doesn't seem like a bonus. 

[enraged_camel]

7 hours ago, Wastelander said:

I have to disagree on that one, at least if you mean calories. Food always has the same calories, whether you like said food or not (that's why college students can survive off of ramen for years ). If you mean the upcoming wellbeing system I'm 100% supporting your idea!

I haven't heard of the wellness system. But IRL, you can't survive off of venison or beef jerky forever. Look up scurvy... 

7 hours ago, Wastelander said:

The water likely comes from the tank, not the bowl. The water in the tank is perfectly safe drinking water, the same water you shower and cook with IRL.

Okay, but all stagnant (non-flowing) water becomes unsafe to drink after a while due to bacteria. This is why, when you're out in the wilderness, you're not supposed to drink out of still ponds.

7 hours ago, Wastelander said:

So, uh, the same effect of traveling overencumbered? I do agree on the backpack, but that doesn't seem like a bonus. 

Maybe it shouldn't slow you then, but should cause fatigue faster. You are carrying more weight after all... it isn't magic.

Basically there needs to be a way to haul cargo over long distances without having to make multiple trips. I run into this issue a lot when traveling to another region. I'm a packrat by nature so I hate leaving stuff behind!

[togg]

A lot of this things don't make sense to me gameplay wise. They would only frustrate aspects that already work.

[Wastelander]

5 hours ago, enraged_camel said:

I haven't heard of the wellness system. But IRL, you can't survive off of venison or beef jerky forever. Look up scurvy... 

13 hours ago, Wastelander said:

Yeah, I know about scurvy. How would you implement that though? Calories are still calories, scurvy or not, so we'd need to track a vitamin-meter. And if we do that, we'd need a renewable source of vitamins, otherwise the game becomes unplayable in the long run. I am not opposed to that idea, I just want to point out that implenting this would trigger a medium cascade of other changes and additions (which wouldn't be bad at all!) which Hinterland may or may not wish to do right now.

5 hours ago, enraged_camel said:

Okay, but all stagnant (non-flowing) water becomes unsafe to drink after a while due to bacteria. This is why, when you're out in the wilderness, you're not supposed to drink out of still ponds.

13 hours ago, Wastelander said:

Good point, actually.

5 hours ago, enraged_camel said:

Basically there needs to be a way to haul cargo over long distances without having to make multiple trips. I run into this issue a lot when traveling to another region. I'm a packrat by nature so I hate leaving stuff behind!

Same  People here have often suggested craftable, pullable sleds that slow you down and consume more calories but allow you to, well, pull enormous loads over snow.

[enraged_camel]

3 hours ago, togg said:

A lot of this things don't make sense to me gameplay wise. They would only frustrate aspects that already work.

Can you be more specific? I spent a lot of time writing all that up, it would be nice to have a constructive discussion.

Also, what about stuff you do like? Hopefully there's a few?

[ponyhidden]

2 hours ago, Wastelander said:

we'd need a renewable source of vitamins

Pine needle tea!

[nicko]

16 hours ago, enraged_camel said:

You should wake up automatically if you get too thirsty, hungry or cold. It makes sense, right? That's how it works in real life! Simply "fading to the dark" is pretty silly, especially since you don't see your Survival Tab while sleeping.

I tend to agree and only if it's becoming life threatening to game survival. Then again they say if your too cold don't sleep because you might not wake up! hrm so maybe only if your thirsty is my vote. Also just sleep in smaller increments if your worried about it.

[togg]

16 hours ago, enraged_camel said:

Been playing since Dec 2015. Here is my feedback... some of this should be easy to implement, while others will probably be out of scope (but possible maybe with a DLC later):

• General:
  • There should be an option to keep the Survival Tab open at all times. Holding down Tab is too annoying, especially since Shift+Tab opens the Steam Overlay so you can't run and monitor your stats at the same time.
  • That's ok, seems a lot of people want it. I would personally never use it.
• • It should not be possible to search containers when it's dark.
  • Whoa. No, if you can find a container you can search it. A penalty time would be equalli stressful.
  • You should be able to light your torch using an ongoing fire, such as a camp fire.
  • This should already be possible.
  • Non-covered fire sources that are indoors should cause fatigue loss due to unmanaged smoke (lack of chimney). Think about it... you're lighting a fire barrel inside the gas station store... what do you think will happen? You'll smoke yourself out!
    • Similarly, if you sleep with such fire sources on, you should die from carbon-monoxide poisoning!
      I assume that the character is able to make some air flowing. I don't see the need of the new mechanic.
  • It should be possible to "reinforce" beds and sleeping bags with extra clothing (or a craftable blanket) for extra warmth.
  • Too difficult to implement imho and would add a layer of numbers either not particularly relevant or way too relevant/OP.
  • Trailers should provide a lot less shelter from cold weather (somewhere between fishing hut and regular cabin).
  • It's already like this in interloper I think. With a ratio that I found sufficient.
• Sleep:
  • You should be able to sleep on couches, but the recovery rate should be slower.
    • There should be some cabins where the beds are in an unusable state or the bedrooms are inaccessible or hard to access (e.g. with a prybar).
    • Rooms that you can open with prybar are a good idea. Sleeping on the couch no, again I don't see why.
  • You should wake up automatically if you get too thirsty, hungry or cold. It makes sense, right? That's how it works in real life! Simply "fading to the dark" is pretty silly, especially since you don't see your Survival Tab while sleeping.
  • Someone explained in other topic that in real life when it's cold it can actually works like this. And it's interesting. It should stay as it is.
  • You should not be able to fall asleep if too thirsty, hungry or cold. This adds a requirement to take care of basic needs first before sleeping.
  • I don't see why.
  • EXCEPTIONS:
    • If your endurance is completely drained, then not only should it be possible to fall asleep while thirsty/hungry/cold, but it should also be possible to die while asleep due to starvation or hypothermia. This adds an additional risk factor to complete exhaustion, and encourages players to not ignore it completely.
    • Also, if you have blood loss, dysentery, infection or hypothermia, there should be risk of dying in your sleep instead of waking up automatically due to hunger, thirst or cold.
• Fatigue & Stamina:
  • When you're completely exhausted, there should be risk of passing out and waking up a few hours later... or not waking up, if out in the open.
  • Sprinting uphill should be very taxing.
  • I'd say one hour more max if you're completelly exausted and you try to sleep for less than 4 hours. But I don't know if the change is worth it.
  • Taxing enough.
• Food
  • Eating the same foods over and over should have diminishing returns, possibly with a temporary affliction attached (e.g. "Sick of Beef Jerky") that reduces the effectiveness of that food for a while until other types of food are consumed. This encourages a healthy, varied diet.
  • I think this kind of variety will work best on another season. Here it's already a challenging world for our character and diet is not the main issue.
  • You should be able to shoot, kill and eat crows. Calorie gain should be minimal (100-200), making it an option for desperate situations only.
  • I don't know how much it would be worth it to implement this.
  • Toilets should give you unsafe water, not potable water. They are toilets! It's not like anyone has cleaned them since the apocalypse.
  • That's ok.
• More Items
  • A compass that adds a compass to the HUD overlay.
  • No compass. Already asked a lot of time. We have a magnetic situation in the story
  • Binoculars that let you see long distances.
  • This is something that could be very interesting, if they can implement it right why not.
  • Unmarked topographical maps of each region that you can mark up and take notes on.
  • Let's see what they're working on for story mode, seems to be not map based. I'm against them in this game, doesn't work with the vibe that they've tried to create.
  • Shovels, used for:
    • Letting you dig holes in the snow to store food. These holes should act as containers and should prevent food from perishing, but add a requirement to thaw it on a fire source before consumption.
    • I don't know, seems too many new things for so little, you can already put food outside and in theory cover it with snow.
    • Accessing snowed-in buildings. It should cost you 30-60 minutes and some fatigue to dig a path to the door.
    • No. Shelter are shelter!
  • A mountaineer's backpack that increases your carrying capacity by 10 lbs, but slows you down and increases the stamina cost of sprinting.
  • It works already like this with the standard pack.

 

[togg]

34 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

Can you be more specific? I spent a lot of time writing all that up, it would be nice to have a constructive discussion.

Also, what about stuff you do like? Hopefully there's a few?

Yes! I like binoculars and rooms with prybar.

For me is like you are playing with a completelly different approach that I am, that's why I was so dry answering sry I like this videogame because of how clean it is. You know often you have videogames where there're tons of dinamics and stuff added just to sustain the attention of the player and make the impression that there're "things to do". For me it just feels bad.

When they added parasites there was a clear and strong reason to do so, same for cabin fever. When I read your list I'm actually scared. You ask for *so much* stuff my head spin! What are for you the most important 3 things on that list? And why?

[MueckE]

Hi, alot of these things have been requested some time ago, others are already implemented and some were implemented at some point, but have been removed again.

Waking up before dying for example turned out to be a really bad mechanic, i am glad this ain't happen in Interloper.

By the way, do you have played Interloper for a while? Normally i wouldn't be against things like using a shovel to go inside or searching containers only with a lightsource - but in Interloper this would need to be well thought through and be balanced. Also, you can defenetly light a torch, just equip it and click on the stove/fire/brand.

I am also strictly against any kind of maps/compasses and binoculars. The maps are extremly small and easy to navigate already. Every few meters you will find unique landmarks.

The only idea i really like is "Accessing snowed-in buildings. It should cost you 30-60 minutes and some fatigue to dig a path to the door" I can see this randomly happen in some places after a while. Just think of going through the ravine after 100 days and now seeing the path blocked by snow that you have to shovel away   - yeah this would add something to the game (this also has been requested some time ago)

Anyway, welcome to the forum and thank you for your ideas.

[togg]

Mmm yea probably they would break those maps the binoculars. I still miss some kind of viewing mechanic, maybe for the next game or season...

 

edit: I've looked again at the roadmap, damn it's good http://hinterlandgames.com/the-long-dark/roadmap/

 

[mystifeid]

On 03/10/2016 at 6:59 AM, enraged_camel said:

There should be an option to keep the Survival Tab open at all times. Holding down Tab is too annoying, especially since Shift+Tab opens the Steam Overlay so you can't run and monitor your stats at the same time.

This drives me nuts.

Also in the clothing tab of the inventory it would be good to have an 'Undress' button which takes off all clothes and a 'Dress' button which puts on all clothes with the highest warmth bonus.

[togg]

2 hours ago, mystifeid said:

This drives me nuts.

Also in the clothing tab of the inventory it would be good to have an 'Undress' button which takes off all clothes and a 'Dress' button which puts on all clothes with the highest warmth bonus.

Wouldn't it destroy a lot of the UI feel? Maybe it's interesting but seems a little bit harsh. Regarding the menu I've recently discovered that you can eat/drink something by simply double click it!

[mystifeid]

57 minutes ago, togg said:

Regarding the menu I've recently discovered that you can eat/drink something by simply double click it!

That's still 18 clicks to undress when a blizzard hits.

[togg]

2 hours ago, mystifeid said:

That's still 18 clicks to undress when a blizzard hits.

Wait, what do you do when a blizzard hit? I need to play more I don't know those strategies so well.

[mystifeid]

Blizzards are pretty unkind to your clothes and if they're crafted clothes, you can go through a few hides and guts when the repairs fail. So when a blizzard hits you take off your clothes and start running. If you look in the screenshots thread, I'm running in a blizzard that feels like -91 C. Totally nekked.

[enraged_camel]

Eh, no offense but you're probably the exception here. When a Blizzard hits, most people's immediate reaction is not "I need to take off all my clothes now so they don't get damaged."

[ponyhidden]

2 minutes ago, enraged_camel said:

Eh, no offense but you're probably the exception here. When a Blizzard hits, most people's immediate reaction is not "I need to take off all my clothes now so they don't get damaged."

That's long dark logic for you, it's actually the correct strategy to take all your clothes off.

Real life, probably not as great an idea. Here it's more like "Uuugh my hide is going to lose 4% condition if I don't go naked"

[togg]

I'll keep them on myself I prefer to play safe In interloper cold is really bad I would be scared to get lost without clothes.

[mystifeid]

How much difference do you think it will make when it's that cold. I don't think you'll last much longer if it feels like -70C instead of -90C.

[mystifeid]

Some games use a key to toggle walking (eg - "q"). I would love to be able to let go of my very tense hold of the "w" key.