Aurora effects

[miah999]

Because people have to be right, and I know I'm guilty of it too. 

But I don't understand why it so hard for some to accept that TLD is science fiction. 

Once you do that you can discuss the endless possibilities, with some science, but without worrying if it's too accurate.

But once someone starts going on about how this or that is not scientific, it frustrates me. Because they often don't know what they're talking about, which activates the teacher in me (I used to be a Computer Science associate professor), and I feel compelled to try and educate.

But also because it takes us all away from the subject at hand.

I for one apologize for any hand I had in derailing this thread.

[Scyzara]

Well said. Please stay both civil and on topic everyone. (The topic is meant to be TLD's aurora and its possible ingame effects, not real life emps and how they may or may not affect animals in reality.)

[Rifleman]

The only technology that is not affected by the aurora are Nokia phones

[Frozen guy]

Hello frozen survivors !

Due to the aurora, the lighthouse in DP should works alone ( most of the time  lighthouse have an automatical system). When you go to DP, you will see this light ,coming out of nowhere ... "What was that ?"

It could affect also the radio station (strange noise and light in the hut) and a part of the dam (just one turbine for example)...

[Hiemalis]

I have absolutely zero knowledge/experience with hydroelectrical turbines, but aren't they mechanical? I thought that the water flow (now frozen) was responsible for turning them so to generate electricity.

But yeah!, I'm sure we'll get to see the lighthouse lighting up. That should be quite a view, maybe something like this:

(Source: http://imgur.com/a/U0maE)

[cekivi]

5 hours ago, Hiemalis said:

I have absolutely zero knowledge/experience with hydroelectrical turbines, but aren't they mechanical? I thought that the water flow (now frozen) was responsible for turning them so to generate electricity.

Yep. Hydroelectic power is completely mechanical. However, the sluice gates would be computer/electronically controlled from the control room above the turbines. The only way the turbines should turn off would be depletion of the reservoir or if the sluice gates close automatically in the event of a power loss. Flowing water wouldn't have the opportunity to freeze after all.

[Frozen guy]

Thanks Hiemalis ! When I saw the picture "Nice NICE NICE NICE !!!!" (because its my only wish to add the this fabulous game).

Also for the dam : the river's surface is frozen but there are running water deeper in the river (there are waterfalls, so not all the water are frozen). If the water move, the turbine works...

Ps : sorry for my English , it's not my native langage.

[Dirmagnos]

2 hours ago, Frozen guy said:

Also for the dam : the river's surface is frozen but there are running water deeper in the river (there are waterfalls, so not all the water are frozen). If the water move, the turbine works...

River is fast, but its small and frozen. The fact that water is running somewhere deep below is irrelevant as in current conditions turbines would ice over and freeze. If fast river surface freezes over then turbines will as well. Plus those streams are fairly small, so there wont be enough water volume to keep those turbines running to prevent freezing.

[cekivi]

6 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

River is fast, but its small and frozen. The fact that water is running somewhere deep below is irrelevant as in current conditions turbines would ice over and freeze. If fast river surface freezes over then turbines will as well. Plus those streams are fairly small, so there wont be enough water volume to keep those turbines running to prevent freezing.

That's part of what I always found puzzling about the dam: there's no reservoir. There's an outlet stream on two maps but for hydroelectric generation you need either a deep, fast river or a large reservoir. The Carter Hydroelectric Dam has neither...

Dam's normally draw their water from below the surface of the reservoir in order to avoid worrying about varying water levels. The closer to the base of the reservoir the inlet for the turbines are the more electricity can be generated because the water will be at higher pressure (more of a standing water column = more pressure). Even when nearly everything is frozen over as long as the reservoir doesn't freeze solid there should be enough water to run the turbines. Otherwise hydroelectric power wouldn't work for most of Canada in the winter

[miah999]

Your right @cekivi it is a bit odd. The first thing I thought the first time I stepped into the winding river area was "where is all the water?" Because I assumed the reservoir had to be on the other side of the dam. Imagine my surprise.

My guess is the dam's bypass gates have been left open. According to the devs the game takes place 6 months after "The Long Dark Incident," that should be enough time to drain the reservoir.

But the problem with that hypothesis is that the winding river is the low side of the dam, so the reservoir should be on the Mystery Lake side, and there's just no room for it.

My wife works for the US Army Corps of Engineers, I'll have to ask her what the dam management folks at work think.

[cekivi]

They'd probably be very confused. If Mystery Lake was the reservoir than all the lake cabins would be under water. What's more both the winding river (on back side of the dam) and the mystery lake river (elevation drops) flow away from the dam...

It is an odd bit of geography/engineering to be sure!

As is how all the equipment on the Winding River side got there with no obvious roads, rails, cranes or trails. And lastly, the transformer station for the dam and high voltage wire connections are missing. Post aurora the whole facility should be a melted pile of slag but it should sill be evident somewhere.

[miah999]

The geography aside, maybe the dam was never finished. While that sounds odd at first, there are a ton of unfinished dams in the US.

But we seem to have veered well off target for this thread.

[Hiemalis]

44 minutes ago, miah999 said:

But we seem to have veered well off target for this thread.

Not the way I see it. We know for a fact that the Aurora has wrecked all electrical/electronic devices, so understanding how dams work allows us to speculate on how aurorae would affect our very own Carter Hydro Dam.

[Dirmagnos]

23 hours ago, miah999 said:

The geography aside, maybe the dam was never finished. While that sounds odd at first, there are a ton of unfinished dams in the US.

But we seem to have veered well off target for this thread.

If it wasnt finished then it would be stripped off everything not bolted down. And i find 6 months time-table to be unrealistic.

[miah999]

Hover Dam is unfinished, as well as nearly 50% of "functioning" dams in the US. Just because it never functioned as a hydro generator does not mean it did not serve a purpose, as either water retention, or flood control.

This all varies in the US by dam ownership, i.e. State vs. Federal, vs. Private. Most private dams have had their permits pulled and are not allowed to even operate their generators.

Canada's system are pretty much the same as the US, only with some stricter environmental laws. That suggest that a dam like Carter may have been shut down decades ago to comply with those standards. However, it could still be necessary to use it to maintain the hydrodynamic stability of the area. Meaning the dam cannot be simply stripped, even if the equipment is not used to generate power, it is still necessary to control the flow of water through the dam.

Lastly, at winter pool, six months is more then enough time to drain a reservoir, depending on size. Carter is just not that big of a dam.

Again I reiterate, my wife works at the US Army Corps of Engineers, the people who manage the federal dams, and enforce the federal regulation on all others, are in the office next to hers, this info is literally a phone call away.

[obsidian_eclipse]

I always imagined TLD do be set in a universe where the 'perfect storm' of catastrophic events have taken place. Where it's not just solar flares but a significant shift in the earths magnetic field, perhaps where the poles are in mid flip and it's week and damaged, making the effects of solar and cosmic radiation much more pronounced (and why no one has a compass or can make one). This may also explain the bizzare and irrational behaviour of animals. I also imagined a mini 'day after tomorrow' situation where there has been a rapid cooling and halting of the sea currents creating artic conditions to be far worse and stretch far further south. Maybe the sudden shift of the ice caps has crested more wobble or changed the axis of rotation.

I'd imagined it to be far worse that a solar flare, even of the Carrington event. A combination of flipping poles, reduced and irratic em fields, solar flares, increased cosmic radiation and sudden rapid cooling of the atmosphere and oceans. Such a horrendous mix that both animals and humans are plunged into an unfamiliar and inhospitable world.

[Dirmagnos]

1 hour ago, obsidian_eclipse said:

I always imagined TLD do be set in a universe where the 'perfect storm' of catastrophic events have taken place. Where it's not just solar flares but a significant shift in the earths magnetic field, perhaps where the poles are in mid flip and it's week and damaged, making the effects of solar and cosmic radiation much more pronounced (and why no one has a compass or can make one). This may also explain the bizzare and irrational behaviour of animals. I also imagined a mini 'day after tomorrow' situation where there has been a rapid cooling and halting of the sea currents creating artic conditions to be far worse and stretch far further south. Maybe the sudden shift of the ice caps has crested more wobble or changed the axis of rotation.

I'd imagined it to be far worse that a solar flare, even of the Carrington event. A combination of flipping poles, reduced and irratic em fields, solar flares, increased cosmic radiation and sudden rapid cooling of the atmosphere and oceans. Such a horrendous mix that both animals and humans are plunged into an unfamiliar and inhospitable world.

Except that it would be impossible. Even if we would talk about alternate universe, with a bit different set of laws of physics, rules of causality still apply. Poles do not just flip, it takes thousands of years, even fast ones took hundreds of years. Not to mention that such "perfect storm" would have far more severe and extensive effects.

"Day After Tomorrow" is actually a good example of all that. While i did like the movies, practically everything about it, specifically all those instant or near-instant changes, are complete and utter fiction. There are no scientific basis to any of them, several of them also defy laws of physics. But i doubt that any1 would wannt to see a movie that is shown as slideshow, where bunch of old nerds in white coats sit behind monitors watching temperatures slowly changing over span of decades. Supercell storm looks a lot cooler, complete nonsense, but far more spectacular.

[obsidian_eclipse]

I understand that it defies much of what we consider reality, but thats part of the enjoyment of a game, the make believe. There are many possibilities and impossibilities which co exist and add to the story and drama of the game. Nature whilst explored and understood by science to a degree still throws curve balls and is constantly redefined. The earth has experienced many sudden and dramatic occurrences in its billion years as much as gradual ones, many of which have not been observed or even known. Our technology is a tiny spec on the timeline and it is unknown what extremes of nature may effect them and to what degree. It doesn't have to be real, because it is ultimately unknown. In many ways our reliance on technology is as flawed as ignorance of it, because we don't know half as much as we imagine we do.

[mjv96]

194 days in and I've not once seen the Aurora or any of it's effects...is it even in the game yet?

[Hiemalis]

5 hours ago, mjv96 said:

194 days in and I've not once seen the Aurora or any of it's effects...is it even in the game yet?

Not yet. But they're sure to come! That's why we're discussing possible effects that Hinterland could implement in the game.

[cekivi]

8 hours ago, mjv96 said:

194 days in and I've not once seen the Aurora or any of it's effects...is it even in the game yet?

It's a road map item. The aurora will definitely be present in story mode. Whether or not it will make an appearance in the sandbox remains unknown.

[mjv96]

Ahh, ok then. Just wanted to make sure of that.