suggestion Weapons+Combat mechanics Suggestions/Discussions (PART 5) (DISCUSSION)

[Docterrok]

Stealth mechanics have evolved considerably since the days of Metal Gear. Recently, with titles like Assassin's Creed, games that are built for action have been implementing stealth mechanics which has lead to a design change in stealth titles.

For the longest time, I've never been a fan of stealth mechanics in games and to shock everyone, I've yet to play Thief 1 and 2. Recently however, games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Assassin's Creed 2 and Batman: Arkham Asylum has made me enjoy the act of sneaking around. As I thought about these titles and why I enjoyed them, I started to think about what goes into making a good stealth game.

Avoiding Detection: The mainstay of stealth games is giving the player ways to avoid being detected, with line of sight as the first mechanic, from there each game usually introduces another mechanic that acts as the unique hook. Both Thief and Splinter Cell had lighting and Metal Gear Solid 3 and 4 had camouflage.

To me, only having a few ways limits the design. The more options open to the player, the better. Batman had the following mechanics:

Hiding in vents or grates
Grappling up to gargoyles 
Batarang distraction 
Explosive gel distraction

Assassin's Creed 2 has:

Smoke bombs 
Hiding in objects 
Hiding in crowds 
Using groups of people as a distraction
Going across rooftops.

Lastly Deus Ex has:

Stealth generator
Throwing objects to create distractions
Rooftops or using elevation
Going through vents
Breaking through walls

Looking at games I didn't like, Hitman, besides line of sight had disguises and the last game added in throwing a coin to create a distraction. To me, it never feels realistic to only have a few options of avoiding detection. I can't wait to see a stealth game combine the unique mechanics of multiple stealth games into one experience.

Having an "out": The other problem I have with a lot of stealth games is that stealth is the only option, as being detected spells doom and one of my first painful memories of this kind of stealth design , was with the game Syphon Filter for the PS1. Near the end of the game, the player is required to sneak through a level with no gear, if they are detected the mission ends.

Not having some kind of offensive ability goes back to a thought I had about the horror genre regarding "fight or flight". If the player's only option is to run away or hide, it makes the game more predictable as the player knows that if they get caught, the game is over.

What was amazing to me, from playing Assassin's Creed and Batman, was how powerful the player was and that they could deal with groups of enemies. With that said though, there has to be a limit, or you just have an action game with minor stealth elements.

That was the problem with Assassin's Creed 2, due to sword counter attacks; it really trivialized the need to be stealthy, unless it was for a mission. Batman had two main types of enemies: unarmed and armed, unarmed enemies could be dealt with without having to sneak, but enemies with guns would kill Batman quickly if they catch him. That set up the dynamic of having sections of the game that were pure action, while still providing areas that required stealth.

The issue with AC2 was that they set up the main character to become a complete bad-ass, both as a fighter and sneaking around. Because of that, no enemy could really stand toe-to-toe with the player. Deus Ex HR: had security drones and turrets, which conventional weapons would not work on them. Only EMP grenades, rocket launchers, or hacking them would work. Now, even though these enemies are best handled by stealth, the designers still gave the option of just fighting them.

Failing Stealth: Building on the last point, one mechanic that has annoyed me about stealth games is that being detected instantly destroys being stealthy.

Chances are if you've played a stealth game then you ran into the following situation: The second someone sees you, every guard on the map instantly knows where you are and comes running. While I like having a way to fight back, I still prefer having a way of becoming hidden again. What I liked about Assassin's Creed 2 was that guards had a few seconds questioning the player's appearance before sounding the alarm, allowing the player to either hide or try to take the guard down.

Personally I prefer to see guards becoming alarmed more realistically, such as: if a guard sees you who don’t have a way of alerting their friends, they'll either try to take you out or run to alert everyone. The farther stealth design moves away from guards with mental links to each other the better.

Less Segregation in Design: This section essentially sums up everything mentioned. One of the main ways that has improved stealth design in my opinion is moving away from having "action levels" and "stealth levels" by combining both elements into the same design. In Deus Ex: HR, with exception to one side mission, the game never forces you to be stealthy. Of course, getting into a fire fight outnumbered is going to be tough to get through, but it's not an instant failure.

Having said that, I know that Batman: AA breaks this point, but in a sense it does work. Giving the player a limit to being aggressive can be beneficial, allowing players to decide how long they should remain hidden before the crap hits the fan. Level design moving from pure linear set pieces to a more open setting has also helped here. Before, getting detected meant that you're only option is to go straight through the enemies to your objective, now you can try to run and hide and get around them another way.

Thinking even further back, The Mark of Kri for PS2 while predominately an action title, did combine stealth elements into play. On each level there are alarms set up that will trigger guards to attack the player if they are detected. The player is more than capable of handling themselves in a fight, but it is easy to be overwhelmed. That way, levels are set up for both stealth and fighting without being separated into specific sections.

One of the main areas that game design has evolved is designing games around more than just one main mechanic. Some of the best games developed have combined elements from different genres to create something new. Batman: Arkham Asylum, succeeded because it wasn't just an action game, or just a stealth game, but a Batman game. With successes like the Assassin's Creed series and Deus Ex, it will be interesting to see how they affect future stealth titles, such as the long dark.
 

-Doc

[Wastelander]

Here's how the pros do it.

[Docterrok]

2 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

Here's how the pros do it.

the winds a bit choppy... TAKE THE SHOT!!

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

the winds a bit choppy... TAKE THE SHOT!!

Target down, I think you blew his arm off - shock and blood loss will take care of the rest

But seriously, looking at how the pros do it is the best way to find a system that is both realistic and works.

I'm not a fan of basing anything TLD on the military, but the military is a good source for knowledge of stealth and combat.

[Docterrok]

Just now, Wastelander said:

I completely agree.

 

[Docterrok]

he lived btw, mw2, best... stealth mission.... ever,

just don't shoot the dogs! or else...

[Wastelander]

I played every CoD up to Black Ops 1, and MW1 was pretty much the best.

Some more material

[Docterrok]

yeah, it went downhill after mw2

[Docterrok]

anyway, that's off tangent! back to combat! 

[Wastelander]

I think an easy way to improve stealth gameplay would be to dye clothes with spray-paint - the paint layer would lose condition over time and would need to be reapplied. We have neither the materials nor the skills to make a full ghillie-suit, not to mention the fire hazard that come with them (seriously, back when I was airsofting on a regular basis I kept an extinguisher just for that one friend of mine who INSISTED on his ghillie. He still has burn scars.) but we can blend in with the environment. The wolf coat would actually be best for that since the fur, which for some reason points outward, slightly breaks up your shilouette. Add random white paint spots and bam, you've got the next best thing to a ghillie suit.

[Docterrok]

simplify, simplify. Ok, use that same idea, and make it a smidge more simple, then im gung ho for it! 

[Wastelander]

Craft wolf coat, use wolf coat and spray paint to paint camo wolf-coat. After condition goes below a certain treshhold it becomes a regular wolf coat

[Docterrok]

[Docterrok]

your'e being the carbine right now

[Wastelander]

Okay, simpler: Use spray paint and/or natural dyes to make yourself blend into the environment better.

[Boston123]

Why would coloration help you in any way in hiding from animals? The predators we have in-game will smell you literal miles before they see you. Same thing with the deer.

 

[Wastelander]

Just now, Boston123 said:

Why would coloration help you in any way in hiding from animals? The predators we have in-game will smell you literal miles before they see you. Same thing with the deer.

 

That is correct, but there is still one animal we need to hide from in the future, and that animal has a gun

[Docterrok]

much better! thats perfect! 

[Boston123]

15 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

That is correct, but there is still one animal we need to hide from in the future, and that animal has a gun

That is you assuming all, most, or even some of the human NPC's are going to be hostile.

I prefer to think in the other direction, and that is all I am going to say on the matter.

[Wastelander]

1 minute ago, Boston123 said:

That is you assuming all, most, or even some of the human NPC's are going to be hostile.

I prefer to think in the other direction, and that is all I am going to say on the matter.

Actually, you're correct on this as well - most NPCs aren't going to be hostile. Most of them. Like, an overwhelming majority. However, there's this minority of NPCs who have guns but lack morals. Maybe they're desperate. Maybe they're just psychopaths. However, they will be there - the trailers show us that much, so this isn't just me making things up. So, would you really want to engage a group of three armed with melee weapons (again, this happened in the trailer!)? Or would it be easier for both sides in this conflict to just sneak past them?

Btw, here's the trailer I was talking about. Videographic evidence and stuff

[Boston123]

Just now, Wastelander said:

Actually, you're correct on this as well - most NPCs aren't going to be hostile. Most of them. Like, an overwhelming majority. However, there's this minority of NPCs who have guns but lack morals. Maybe they're desperate. Maybe they're just psychopaths. However, they will be there - the trailers show us that much, so this isn't just me making things up. So, would you really want to engage a group of three armed with melee weapons (again, this happened in the trailer!)? Or would it be easier for both sides in this conflict to just sneak past them?

Btw, here's the trailer I was talking about. Videographic evidence and stuff

If you are moving, you are going to get spotted if the opponents have functioning eyes. All the "camo" in the world will not help you. Humans are predators, and predators are quite capable, if not outright intrinsically attracted to, movement.

"Camo" will only really help when remaining still, in places where the camo will blend and remove your very-human and instantly-recognizable outline. In The Long Dark, this almost certainly means snow.

With regards to the above scenario, back up the trail aways and find another path around. Scoot over the hill and go up the side valley. You shouldn't "have to" confront anything is you don't want to.

[Wastelander]

I agree that looping around a threat is always the better option, but hey, shouldn't we have least have the option of camouflaging?

[Boston123]

1 minute ago, Wastelander said:

I agree that looping around a threat is always the better option, but hey, shouldn't we have least have the option of camouflaging?

Again, in my opinion, all camouflaging is is a waste of time and effort. Not to mention that covering your coat with spray paint will remove whatever insulation value it has, by clumping the fur together.

[Wastelander]

Just now, Boston123 said:

Again, in my opinion, all camouflaging is is a waste of time and effort. Not to mention that covering your coat with spray paint will remove whatever insulation value it has, by clumping the fur together.

Okay, that's one thing I admittedly overlooked, so yeah, that's right. I still do believe that at least a modicum of camouflage is better than none at all though.