Weapons+Combat mechanics Suggestions/Discussions

[Docterrok]

So far, I've noticed a lot of mixed responses with weapons as a whole, its like watching your mother-in-law drive off a cliff in  a Ferrari, its a case of mixed emotions. Here are my two cents to throw in about the matter. Keep in mind I will also be discussing combat mechanics later on, but for now, lets delve into the meat of the issue, starting with the biggest part. 

Subject 1. Guns and Ammo

According to the road-map, Revolvers are intended to be put into the game, while I do like this idea very much, (Mainly due to the subject of weight) I am worried that it will get overly complicated, don't get me wrong, I love in depth weapon mechanics. But I personally don't want the long dark to turn into something like this...

 

I'm exaggerating of course, but the scary reality of the matter is once you start introducing more and more weapons to a game, the community desires more and more, until it grows into an entire armory of weapons. This is not always a bad thing, take the game Unturned^TM For example. This game had rather simple (but monotonous) gameplay mechanics and a few weapons. Over time, it grew to fit a variety of play styles that included different weapons for your choice of play. A game like the Long Dark, however, should steer clear of weapon oriented gameplay, and keep its focus on atmosphere and immersion. This game is very different to other survival games, and if weapons are a primary focus, its differences will begin to blur and, with time, devolve into something like Rust or DayZ (Note, I have nothing wrong with these games!)

Now I believe I have a proper solution to the issue that seems like a good compromise between players who focus on weaponry, and players (such as myself) that focus on atmosphere. This is a resolution that I feel will keep both player types happy, here it is. 

1. Make weapon maintenance a mini-game, not just a time killer. One example of how this could work can be seen in the Dark Cut^TM Flash game series, while macabre, the mechanics of how it would work are there, it should be a process, that involves dismantling, unscrewing things with your scroller wheel, wiping things clean by moving the mouse, etc. This will not only add something fun to do while you kill time, but, if done correctly, could educate! I tried finding a picture to kind of illustrate what I mean, this is the best thing I could find.

 

This would make people focus more on the weapons the have, and thus, reduce the desire to want more weapons to dismantle and clean. My only concern is if a mini-game like this was added, people would want more things like it. But that's just me.

2.Add A BOOM-STICK!

While this may be contrary to my previous statement on simplification, this is almost a necessity. For two reasons, first, they are bad ass, and second, they are a common civilian firearm. A Double Barrel shotgun would not only be fitting, but it would make sense in a country known for its excellent duck hunting. So, in short, there should only be three types of firearms, the D.B Shotgun, the rifle, and the revolver. Other than that, I don't think it needs expansion. 

3.KEEP IT SIMPLE!

The basic mechanics should be kept the same, finding ammo should make the Evil Within look easy, (in case you don't know what I'm talking about, finding ammo in the Evil Within is REALLY NOT easy!) And ammo should always be used sparingly, even when you are fighting other npcs. Which leads to my next disscusion.

Subject 2: NPC COMBAT MECHANICS!

Soon we'll be fighting other humans in this game, for those with short attention spans, this section is catered to you, because I will be using images more to explain my logic a little more "digest-ably". 

Top 3 In game AI and fighting mechanics I really like.

1. The Last of Us

For the Record, I am usually not a console player, but the Last of Us has AI that set a high bar for the rest of the games to follow.

2. Outlast

The AI in this game was not only well done, but well executed and convinced many gamers that sometimes facing your fears isn't the best idea... 

3. Bioshock

The AI, while simple, utilized there surroundings better than any other game I can think of. 

 

I do believe Hinterland could learn a thing or two about combat mechanics done right. This will be a multi part thing, next time, I will discuss what to avoid. I am open to any thoughts you have, I'll try to keep this series split up into brief parts, thanks!

[Wastelander]

I agree with what you say about firearms. Living in Germany, I'm no expert on the matter (in fact, I believe the deadliest thing I ever held in my hands was a steering wheel), so please take everything I say with a grain of salt.

First of all, I agree on the shotgun - even in Germany and other European countries with very strict gun laws they're reasonably common - one of my best buddy's father actually has several, plus a revolver. I actually managed to phone him today, and what he said about gun maintenance (needed info for my fanfic, shameless self-advertisement *wink wink*) is basically what you said. I'd really be for a minigame for that! I'm also all for the educational part about it, because quite frankly, more peope should have at least a reasonable amount of knowledge on how to maintain a firearm - knowledge won't hurt ya! I think the best way to avoid the Mt. Gun-problem you illustrated perfectly well with that picture in my opinion would be to not increase the overall amount of guns and ammunition but to increase the diversity of them.

Of all the games you mention for NPC-AI, I only played Bioshock, and yes I do agree with it. The AI should definitely use cover. And it should do something most games don't implement - retreat when they're getting their a**es kicked. Fallout 3 and New Vegas did this okay-ish. I'm always put off when a game tells me how realistic it is and then ordinary people who try to rob you because they want to survive fight to the death when it's painfully obvious that they were dead the moment you opened fire. Maybe add in a simple morale stat, the Total War games, alongside Dawn of War and Company of Heroes managed to do that quite fine.

Regarding melee-combat, how would you like that handled?

 

[Docterrok]

14 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

I agree with what you say about firearms. Living in Germany, I'm no expert on the matter (in fact, I believe the deadliest thing I ever held in my hands was a steering wheel), so please take everything I say with a grain of salt.

First of all, I agree on the shotgun - even in Germany and other European countries with very strict gun laws they're reasonably common - one of my best buddy's father actually has several, plus a revolver. I actually managed to phone him today, and what he said about gun maintenance (needed info for my fanfic, shameless self-advertisement *wink wink*) is basically what you said. I'd really be for a minigame for that! I'm also all for the educational part about it, because quite frankly, more peope should have at least a reasonable amount of knowledge on how to maintain a firearm - knowledge won't hurt ya! I think the best way to avoid the Mt. Gun-problem you illustrated perfectly well with that picture in my opinion would be to not increase the overall amount of guns and ammunition but to increase the diversity of them.

Of all the games you mention for NPC-AI, I only played Bioshock, and yes I do agree with it. The AI should definitely use cover. And it should do something most games don't implement - retreat when they're getting their a**es kicked. Fallout 3 and New Vegas did this okay-ish. I'm always put off when a game tells me how realistic it is and then ordinary people who try to rob you because they want to survive fight to the death when it's painfully obvious that they were dead the moment you opened fire. Maybe add in a simple morale stat, the Total War games, alongside Dawn of War and Company of Heroes managed to do that quite fine.

Regarding melee-combat, how would you like that handled?

 

First off, you make some excellent points, and I do agree with the subject of retreat. As it is a basic human instinct (Fight or Flight) I believe certain NPCs should retreat even before fighting ensues. Not every NPC will be a macho Russian bodybuilder, fleeing should be a thing, and based on your choice, you can follow them, or leave them be. As for melee combat, it should be a frightening experience, similar to how it is now, it should be a struggle, he/she, jumps on top of you with melee weapon, and you must struggle to survive the ordeal as they try to kill you, and you can sustain injuries as well, again, like wolf struggles, getting lacerations, etc, if you succeed with the struggle and gain the upper hand, you have a choice, time will slow down, and you can either kill them in cold blood, or tell them to stand down. So, in short, like the struggles you have with wolves, with a choice at the end. I feel it would be dramatic and cinematic, which are two things hinterland use quite often! thanks!

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

First off, you make some excellent points, and I do agree with the subject of retreat. As it is a basic human instinct (Fight or Flight) I believe certain NPCs should retreat even before fighting ensues. Not every NPC will be a macho Russian bodybuilder, fleeing should be a thing, and based on your choice, you can follow them, or leave them be. As for melee combat, it should be a frightening experience, similar to how it is now, it should be a struggle, he/she, jumps on top of you with melee weapon, and you must struggle to survive the ordeal as they try to kill you, if you succeed with the struggle and gain the upper hand, you have a choice, time will slow down, and you can either kill them in cold blood, or tell them to stand down. So, in short, like the struggles you have with wolves, with a choice at the end. I feel it would be dramatic and cinematic, which are two things hinterland use quite often! thanks!

Nice ideas!

I've been involved in full-contact medieval fighting since 2012, so I actually have some experience on the topic of axes and knives (swords as well, but we're probably not going to find any :D). Basically, fights with either weapon mostly begin with gauging the ability of your opponent by attacking from a distance several times, trying to get through their defenses. However, it usually ends in a struggle like the one you mentioned in which a myriad of factors play in - weight, strength, height, dexterity, willpower, the weapon used etc. Axes and hatchets, for example, are only effectice at one very specific range - they can be used in closer ranges but lose a lot of power. In very short ranges, knives and even punches are more effective - so, even if you manage to wound your enemy with your axe, as soon as it gets into a struggle and your enemy has a knive or even no weapon at all, you may still lose.

The following video is, while it does not break the forum rules, not for the faint of heart

These guys are nutjobs and like to provoke on youtube, but they get the fighting done right. I had the honor of sparring with them mid-2015.

[Docterrok]

1 minute ago, Wastelander said:

Nice ideas!

I've been involved in full-contact medieval fighting since 2012, so I actually have some experience on the topic of axes and knives (swords as well, but we're probably not going to find any :D). Basically, fights with either weapon mostly begin with gauging the ability of your opponent by attacking from a distance several times, trying to get through their defenses. However, it usually ends in a struggle like the one you mentioned in which a myriad of factors play in - weight, strength, height, dexterity, willpower, the weapon used etc. Axes and hatchets, for example, are only effectice at one very specific range - they can be used in closer ranges but lose a lot of power. In very short ranges, knives and even punches are more effective - so, even if you manage to wound your enemy with your axe, as soon as it gets into a struggle and your enemy has a knive or even no weapon at all, you may still lose.

The following video is, while it does not break the forum rules, not for the faint of heart

These guys are nutjobs and like to provoke on youtube, but they get the fighting done right. I had the honor of sparring with them mid-2015.

That is exactly what I'm talking about! unlike how it is shown in movies, fights like that often devolve into an on the floor, tooth and nail ordeal! And based on what you said about those fights, it is without a doubt you are from Germany!  My experience of this type of thing is mainly founded apon my time wrestling in highschool.

[SPiRiT]

do know if the last of us is out for PC yet?! or when will it be available?!

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

That is exactly what I'm talking about! unlike how it is shown in movies, fights like that often devolve into an on the floor, tooth and nail ordeal! And based on what you said about those fights, it is without a doubt you are from Germany!  My experience of this type of thing is mainly founded apon my time wrestling in highschool.

Yeah, fights in Hollywood are supposed to look good, not realistic, but an enemy you pinned on the floor is an enemy you can stab the ever living **** out of at your hearts delight and yes, I am from Germany - so, if I ever sound weird or even aggressive, this is most likely due to English not being my first language, so bear with me

Wrestling is pretty cool and some skills in wrestling will give you the upper hand against an untrained fighter even if said fighter has a weapon.

In the context of the game, I think an updated wolf-struggle would cut it - build up strength for a punch/stab/whatever but also use the A and D keys to tactically roll away in order to evade an opponents attacks, rapidly tab the W and S keys to try and get out of your opponents grip. When on top, use the same keys to keep your enemy where he is while proceeding to perforate him.

[Docterrok]

1 minute ago, Wastelander said:

Yeah, fights in Hollywood are supposed to look good, not realistic, but an enemy you pinned on the floor is an enemy you can stab the ever living **** out of at your hearts delight and yes, I am from Germany - so, if I ever sound weird or even aggressive, this is most likely due to English not being my first language, so bear with me

Wrestling is pretty cool and some skills in wrestling will give you the upper hand against an untrained fighter even if said fighter has a weapon.

In the context of the game, I think an updated wolf-struggle would cut it - build up strength for a punch/stab/whatever but also use the A and D keys to tactically roll away in order to evade an opponents attacks, rapidly tab the W and S keys to try and get out of your opponents grip. When on top, use the same keys to keep your enemy where he is while proceeding to perforate him.

This is my preferred fighting style, thankfully, I have only had to implement it twice. (I live in the city) this isnt really related but I will return to the subject

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

As for your suggestions with how it is done, using keys in struggles would make it unneededly difficult in my honest opinion, the way it is now (clicking) would not only be easy to program, but give the player time to focus on the cinematic aspect of it, not the pressing of certain keys and focusing exclusively on your keyboard.

 

[Docterrok]

10 minutes ago, SPiRiT said:

do know if the last of us is out for PC yet?!

BTW, it will never be a pc game, sorry dude...

[Wastelander]

Quote

As for your suggestions with how it is done, using keys in struggles would make it unneededly difficult in my honest opinion, the way it is now (clicking) would not only be easy to program, but give the player time to focus on the cinematic aspect of it, not the pressing of certain keys and focusing exclusively on your keyboard.

That's actually a good point, but I do believe that struggles against humans should be difficult, unpredictable and require some sort of skill - maybe an ingame skill 'melee'. The reason for this is while wolves are strong, especially with their jaws, they can't really outsmart you, whereas humans may or may not have hidden weapons, dirty tricks up their sleeves or are just drugged up to the point where they feel no pain.

[Docterrok]

2 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

That's actually a good point, but I do believe that struggles against humans should be difficult, unpredictable and require some sort of skill - maybe an ingame skill 'melee'. The reason for this is while wolves are strong, especially with their jaws, they can't really outsmart you, whereas humans may or may not have hidden weapons, dirty tricks up their sleeves or are just drugged up to the point where they feel no pain.

Keep in mind it is also extraordinarily difficult to program an in depth fighting mechanic for a first person game. Even Hand to hand combat games like mirrors edge do it weirdly. Not to mention that combat isn't a key focus of this game anyhow

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

Keep in mind it is also extraordinarily difficult to program an in depth fighting mechanic for a first person game. Even Hand to hand combat games like mirrors edge do it weirdly.

True, good point. Then again, I don't know much about programming (I programmed a calculator in school once and it somehow managed to destroy the system in a way that the computer required a complete reinstall, don't ask me how I did that because I don't know myself), so whenever I state things like this they're nothing more than wishes with little regard to their feasability

[Docterrok]

Just now, Wastelander said:

True, good point. Then again, I don't know much about programming (I programmed a calculator in school once and it somehow managed to destroy the system in a way that the computer required a complete reinstall, don't ask me how I did that because I don't know myself), so whenever I state things like this they're nothing more than wishes with little regard to their feasability

Well, what do you think would be a better substitute? (I gave you some decent rep btw )

[Wastelander]

Yeah, I saw that, thanks buddy

I think there should be two minigames - one where you're pinned down and one when you're the one doing the pinning. The action where you're pinned down should be similar to or the same as the wolf struggle, whereas the action where you're on top should be similar, but allow you to target your blows a bit better. The game already has a system where injuries are sort of localized, so this probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement. Then, weapons deal more damage, different areas give the enemy various debuffs and so on (crowbar to the head! knife to the throat! granola bar to the mouth!)

[Docterrok]

1 minute ago, Wastelander said:

Yeah, I saw that, thanks buddy

I think there should be two minigames - one where you're pinned down and one when you're the one doing the pinning. The action where you're pinned down should be similar to or the same as the wolf struggle, whereas the action where you're on top should be similar, but allow you to target your blows a bit better. The game already has a system where injuries are sort of localized, so this probably wouldn't be too difficult to implement. Then, weapons deal more damage, different areas give the enemy various debuffs and so on (crowbar to the head! knife to the throat! granola bar to the mouth!)

I think that instead of it being a balancing act, you could simply shake them off then gain the upper hand, then click your heart out! otherwise they'll shake you off and do the same, eventually, one of you will lose as energy begins to run low and exhaustion kicks in. Fights like this can often last minutes in fact!

[Docterrok]

Keep in mind the combat shouldn't be macabre or bloody. That often shakes people up, especially in a calm (ish) game like this.

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

I think that instead of it being a balancing act, you could simply shake them off then gain the upper hand, then click your heart out! otherwise they'll shake you off and do the same, eventually, one of you will lose as energy begins to run low and exhaustion kicks in. Fights like this can often last minutes in fact!

That's a pretty good idea actually which should be easy to implement! You're correct on the legth of fights as well - longest I gone in extreme melee with my best buddy was 12 minutes, with 20 minutes of normal melee beforehand. Afterwoods, we were exhausted beyond what we believed we could sustain. I won, by the way, but only because of dirty tricks

[Docterrok]

1 minute ago, Wastelander said:

That's a pretty good idea actually which should be easy to implement! You're correct on the legth of fights as well - longest I gone in extreme melee with my best buddy was 12 minutes, with 20 minutes of normal melee beforehand. Afterwoods, we were exhausted beyond what we believed we could sustain. I won, by the way, but only because of dirty tricks

Exactly! And throwing them off could involve somewhat light hits or cuts with whatever melee you have at hand. Then you get on top as they struggle! That would be both fitting and bad ass!

[Wastelander]

3 minutes ago, Docterrok said:

Keep in mind the combat shouldn't be macabre or bloody. That often shakes people up, especially in a calm (ish) game like this.

Not to mention the T-rating. Realistically, an armed melee is about the most gruesome thing you can get into, but yeah, I agree with you on that one. I personally wouldn't mind blood and gore, but yeah, Hinterland has decided to go that way and we have to respect that. With that in mind, we can't go and graphically stab people, decapitate them, crush their joints, break their ribs or make post-apocalyptic salsa out of their heads - maybe the character can 'black out' on the moment of the kill, leaving a generic corpse behind?

[Wastelander]

1 minute ago, Docterrok said:

Exactly! And throwing them off could involve somewhat light hits or cuts with whatever melee you have at hand. Then you get on top as they struggle! That would be both fitting and bad ass!

I kind of want to see dirty tricks implemented - a handful of snow to the eyes, kicks to the groin, even spitting in their faces - the world just ended, and with it most likely the concept of honor

[Docterrok]

4 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

Not to mention the T-rating. Realistically, an armed melee is about the most gruesome thing you can get into, but yeah, I agree with you on that one. I personally wouldn't mind blood and gore, but yeah, Hinterland has decided to go that way and we have to respect that. With that in mind, we can't go and graphically stab people, decapitate them, crush their joints, break their ribs or make post-apocalyptic salsa out of their heads - maybe the character can 'black out' on the moment of the kill, leaving a generic corpse behind?

I think the black out idea is an excellent choice if you make the decision to kill your opponent, and your mind can make the connection. I think the noises shouldn't be gross either, there should be noise, like the knife moving in, but there shouldn't be noises like "Splot" or "Squish" you know?

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

I think the black out idea is an excellent choice if you make the decision to kill your opponent, and your mind can make the connection. I think the noises should be gross either, there should be noise, like the knife moving in, but there shouldn't be noises like "Splot" or "Squish" you know?

Maybe just that generic "sssshhhhhhhhhht" sound they use in movies, repeated several times over - one stab ain't gonna kill anybody (I'm looking at you, Call of Duty and Battlefield and most FPS games, shame on you). Maybe followed by a cutscene where the character looks at his/her hands and goes like "What.... what have I done?", at least the first couple times - I'm looking at the torture-cutscene from Far Cry 3 here.

Again, not for the faint of heart.

 

[Docterrok]

32 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

Maybe just that generic "sssshhhhhhhhhht" sound they use in movies, repeated several times over - one stab ain't gonna kill anybody (I'm looking at you, Call of Duty and Battlefield and most FPS games, shame on you). Maybe followed by a cutscene where the character looks at his/her hands and goes like "What.... what have I done?", at least the first couple times - I'm looking at the torture-cutscene from Far Cry 3 here.

Again, not for the faint of heart.

 

I think the guilt system would be very hard to implement, but fitting and awesome if done well.

[Wastelander]

Just now, Docterrok said:

I think the guilt system would be very hard to implement, but fitting and awesome if done well.

Maybe temporary debuffs to the upcoming morale system would work - the more innocent your victim, the harder the debuff. Kill someone who attacked you? Just a bit. Kill someone innocent? Oh baby, the feels train has no brakes.

[Docterrok]

5 minutes ago, Wastelander said:

Maybe temporary debuffs to the upcoming morale system would work - the more innocent your victim, the harder the debuff. Kill someone who attacked you? Just a bit. Kill someone innocent? Oh baby, the feels train has no brakes.

As for the hands thing after the blacked out cutscene, I think this represents what your talking about perfectly.