He must always butt in.

[Schaumrolle24]

Before I start with my bitching, first and foremost a big fat praise to the developers :

You have done a great job so far. If you continue keeping the game on the right path, here will come out a sensational game of a special kind. Don’t let you tell anything else.

After dozens of hours game experience on different difficulty levels, now following a list of things that occured to me in a negative manner:

1.) Insufficient threat by weather and body needs

2.) Too much loot

3.) No goal

4.) Not enough different clothes, especially in low-quality sector

5.) Too little variety in weaponry

6.) No differences between the player characters

7.) Inconsistent AI of the wild animals

8.) No orientation help

9.) Too rapid expiration of clothing and food

Since the game is still in the alpha phase, one or another issue will disappear sooner or later, anyway. I just want to have all of them noted here.

The important things first:

1.) Insufficient threat by weather and body needs

You can stumble through the worst snowstorm – completely naked – and survive that long, that it feels the same as if you’re wearing the best outdoor clothing. Thus the player has always a chance to save his life, for all that he acts like a jerk.

At the beginning I had scrupulously respected the fact that my body temperature does not drop to zero, until the point I noticed : Aha, I've still got plenty of time when I'm numb! The expedition can indeed go on then.

To my mind, the body temperature drops rapidly and you don’t die fast enough in relation, once the body is "numb ", that the coldness just couldn’t become a real enemy.

In particular, if, for example, the character is numb and overtired, the player should be forced to act immediately, so he doesn’t die.

To begin with further balancing of this feature, I suggest to double the speed of constitution descent, in all body stress situations.

In referring to this topic, of course:

http://www.hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=9671

2.) Too much loot

With this part is dealt rather quickly.

There isn't that thrill in yet, rifling through the world. Especially not on "pilgrim" setting.

Also because of that fact, it's too easy to survive.

I recommend to start with:

"Pilgrim": -50 % loot

"Voyager": -40 % loot

"Stalker": -30 % loot

3.) No goal

Yeah, its a sandbox game for sure! But let the gamers the choice to pick a goal, please!

Survive for 50, or 100, or 150 days; Discover 100 % of the world; Travel 1.000 miles; Eat 2.000.000 lbs of fish; - whatever! Just give the players an end in their view. One that is burdensome to get to, best.

A checklist from which they can choose their own win condition(s), would be very nice and makes it much more replayable. So that (Sandbox) TLD just makes some more sense - as much as a video game can make sense. Because we all know it: Every game is nothing more than a time consumer.

4.) Not enough different clothes, especially in low-quality sector

In my first stalker game, it took me less than 4 days to find a Premium Winter Coat. The best non self crafted garment. I found Toques on backseats, over and over. Always just that single "Basic Wool Scarf".

You know, the player wants to be rewarded and he likes variety. In a game like this, rewards shouldn't be persisent loot findings. Neither a flip-book you start again and again.

An overhaul is probably in work anyway, but I suggest 5 quality levels for every single piece of clothing:

Low quality - Dirt-cheap, from the discounter round the corner.

Basic quality - Acceptable street clothing, but not literally created for this scenario

High quality - Pretty good stuff, like a fully-fledged wayfarer might wear.

Professional quality - The best winter clothing you could buy for money once.

Survival quality - The very best winter gear ever! Hand-crafted by yourself.

With a likelihood to find like:

Low quality - 45 %

Basic quality - 35 %

High quality - 15 %

Professional quality - 5 %

Survival quality - 0 % (Selfmade only)

Example (jackets):

Flimsy Jacket - Low quality. Warmth: +1.0 C / Windproof: 0.0 C

Down Ski Jacket - Basic quality. Warmth: +2.0 C / Windproof: +1.0 C

Wind Breaker - High quality. Warmth: +2.0 C / Windproof: +2.0 C

Field Parka - Professional quality. Warmth: +3.0 C / Windproof: +2.0 C

Revenants Jacket - Survival quality. Warmth: +4.0 C / Windproof: +3.0 C

5.) Too little variety in weaponry

Also cross reference to this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=8227

Likewise as for the clothing:

It just occurs weird, to find just one single type of gun over and over.

I don't want to find a greater quantity of weapons (firearms to be exact), most certainly not. To the contrary: Firearm-findings should be very rare. But it needs a bit more variety in it, to feel more convincing and make it more exiciting to the players.

Like you can read in the linked topic above, I would suggest 3 types of firearm:

The Double-barrelled Shotgun

Only short range (up to 30 yards), only 2 shots. Emergency defense weapon, limited hunting capability.

The Revolver

Short to medium range (up to 50 yards), can fire 6 shots in close succession. Versatile weapon.

The good, old Enfield-Rifle (as already implemented)

Short to long range (up to 150 yards), 10 rounds bolt-action, thus slow rate of fire. Emergency defense weapon, good hunting capability.

All these weapons would fit perfectly in this crude, wilderness scenario and would'nt give a big advantage against the predators, to the player. Especially not, at constant ammo scarcity and roaming wolf packs.

Additionally one or two more self-crafted weapons, like a boar spear or a boomerang, would also be a great improvement.

6.) No differences between the player characters

I really would like to see a little differentiation, when I play one of the two characters, more than different voices and a changed HUD-picture. I has to feel different!

Here's just some food for thought:

Less calorie store for the gal, but also less calorie consumption. -20% sounds good.

Reason: Women are smaller, lighter and have less muscle mass (in average, for sure! There are alot of girls out there, who could easy clobber me! So no offence!)

Separate start skill sets. The guy could be better with fire starting the girl with repairing stuff, for instance. Or it could be a random skill set with certain tendencies, varying on every new game startup.

Different body constitution. The girl could be more sturdy against physical damage and has a better pain endurance (less pain killers needed). In return, the guy could be more tolerant against the cold.

Better first aid skills for the girl, better weapon handling for the guy.

Just thinking...

7.) Inconsistent AI of the wild animals

Deers

By far the most annoying on this point, are deers galloping around completely mindless. Almost trampling the player down sometimes, like it wanted to say: "Hey, I am a keen prey - please kill me!"

It doesn't look like they are fleeing, it is just awful. Deer flight-mechanics really needs reworking.

Wolves

Depending on the difficulty wolves should be more often seen in small packs with 2-3 animals.

Nevertheless that they a slow chasers, they quit their pursuit very quickly, right know. I think, the wolf threat can be increased on "Stalker" and maybe a bit on "Voyageur", too.

Marginal note: I think you guys know that, but wolves don't bark so much. They can, but when they do it, their barking is mainly compounded with howling. However you can hear them barking very often ingame. It pretty sounds much more like dog, than a wolf.

I'd love to hear wolves howling much more. Especially afar during night - you could even hear them dulled, inside a building - man, that would give me goosebumps!

Oh yeah, besides that: Timberwolves have a very variable palett of different coat colours. Some are black, some are white, most of them are brown or a mix of all three colours:

http://www.mtcmediaproductions.com/images/animals/timberwolf1305.jpg

Bears

Bears are quite okay so far, but their roaming also looks weird and pointless to me.

8.) No orientation help

I like that the game makes it often hard for the player, and punishes him when he does something wrong. I really appreciate that. Sometimes it even punishes the player, when he does it right. That's the style! :mrgreen:

For me it isn't hard enough - on "Stalker".

I think the devs want to guide the gamer through the world, by using distinctive landmarks and through his personal exploration experiences.

Still, an orientation help would be nice. It could be just a compass.

But I would prefer a freehand sketch map. Everytime a new location is discovered, a bit more of the map is added by hand with a pencil (automatically). The players location should'nt be shown on the map (maybe on "Pilgrim"). This could assist the gamers, especially new members, who don't know the maps so well.

9.) Too rapid expiration of clothing and food

Okay, last but not least food spoiling and clothing wearout.

I understand the point of food spoiling and I like it pretty much, as it is.

Maybe canned food, MREs and stuff like this could use a bit of rethinking concerning this point.

But I dislike the speed of clothing wearout, especially during a storm.

It's okay, that clothing looses about 1 % per week because of the everyday outdoor duty.

It's okay, that clothing gets damaged during wildlife attacks, falls, etc.

And it is still okay, that wear and tear of your stuff is a bit higher during a (snow) storm.

But not in this manner!

Example:

I checked the condition of my clothing every day, multiple times. I kept everything above 70 %.

One day, I was forced to walk through a heavy snow storm. I took me 1 maybe 2 (ingame) hours to reach my destination. I used wind cover where possible. But after that, I had to notice that some of my gear lost about 25% condition! What the heck?!? For real?! Was my winter coat made of blotting paper?

I beg you - rethink about this!

[Schaumrolle24]

2.) Too much loot

With this part is dealt rather quickly.

There isn't that thrill in yet, rifling through the world. Especially not on "pilgrim" setting.

Also because of that fact, it's too easy to survive.

I recommend to start with:

"Pilgrim": -50 % loot

"Voyager": -40 % loot

"Stalker": -30 % loot

[SteveP]

Loot fairly quickly runs out. You can survive many days on looting but eventually you must master hunting and fishing and trapping to get food.

[SteveP]

I agree that tools wear too rapidly especially the whetstone and rifle cleaning kit. One rifle cleaning is typically enough to restore any rifle to its best condition. Same with sharpening although it might take longer for a really dull tool. Knife and axe should not wear out so rapidly.

[Schaumrolle24]

Loot fairly quickly runs out. You can survive many days on looting but eventually you must master hunting and fishing and trapping to get food.

Thanks, for your replies!

In my last "Stalker" game (lasted about 20 ingame days) I never wasn't forced to hunt or set traps, because I just found enough groceries, animal carcasses, cat tails, and stuff, so that food was only a trifling concern. And I am not crack in that game yet. I expect a significantly deadlier challenge in that particular type of game on its highest difficulty setting.

3.) No goal

Yeah, its a sandbox game for sure! But let the gamers the choice to pick a goal, please!

Survive for 50, or 100, or 150 days; Discover 100 % of the world; Travel 1.000 miles; Eat 2.000.000 lbs of fish; - whatever! Just give the players an end in their view. One that is burdensome to get to, best.

A checklist from which they can choose their own win condition(s), would be very nice and makes it much more replayable. So that (Sandbox) TLD just makes some more sense - as much as a video game can make sense. Because we all know it: Every game is nothing more than a time consumer.

[Schaumrolle24]

4.) Not enough different clothes, especially in low-quality sector

In my first stalker game, it took me less than 4 days to find a Premium Winter Coat. The best non self crafted garment. I found Toques on backseats, over and over. Always just that single "Basic Wool Scarf".

You know, the player wants to be rewarded and he likes variety. In a game like this, rewards shouldn't be persisent loot findings. Neither a flip-book you start again and again.

An overhaul is probably in work anyway, but I suggest 5 quality levels for every single piece of clothing:

1. Low quality - Dirt-cheap, from the discounter round the corner.
   
2. Basic quality - Acceptable street clothing, but not literally created for this scenario
   
3. High quality - Pretty good stuff, like a fully-fledged wayfarer might wear.
   
4. Professional quality - The best winter clothing you could buy for money once.
   
5. Survival quality - The very best winter gear ever! Hand-crafted by yourself.

With a likelihood to find like:

• Low quality - 45 %
  
• Basic quality - 35 %
  
• High quality - 15 %
  
• Professional quality - 5 %
  
• Survival quality - 0 % (Selfmade only)

Example (jackets):

• Flimsy Jacket - Low quality. Warmth: +1.0 C / Windproof: 0.0 C
  
• Down Ski Jacket - Basic quality. Warmth: +2.0 C / Windproof: +1.0 C
  
• Wind Breaker - High quality. Warmth: +2.0 C / Windproof: +2.0 C
  
• Field Parka - Professional quality. Warmth: +3.0 C / Windproof: +2.0 C
  
• Revenants Jacket - Survival quality. Warmth: +4.0 C / Windproof: +3.0 C

[nicko]

3.) No goal

Yeah, its a sandbox game for sure! But let the gamers the choice to pick a goal, please!

Survive for 50, or 100, or 150 days;

Steam PC users get Steam Achievements - You can view them here - http://steamcommunity.com/stats/305620/achievements

Apprently the devs will be adding more!

I don't think xbox users have achievements yet.

[Schaumrolle24]

3.) No goal

Yeah, its a sandbox game for sure! But let the gamers the choice to pick a goal, please!

Survive for 50, or 100, or 150 days;

Steam PC users get Steam Achievements - You can view them here - http://steamcommunity.com/stats/305620/achievements

Apprently the devs will be adding more!

I don't think xbox users have achievements yet.

Yes, achievements are great for rewarding the gamer.

Still they don't end a game, so that the player could say: "Yeah, I just managed it! I beat this game."

[Schaumrolle24]

5.) Too little variety in weaponry

Also cross reference to this topic: http://www.hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=8227

Likewise as for the clothing:

It just occurs weird, to find just one single type of gun over and over.

I don't want to find a greater quantity of weapons (firearms to be exact), most certainly not. To the contrary: Firearm-findings should be very rare. But it needs a bit more variety in it, to feel more convincing and make it more exiciting to the players.

Like you can read in the linked topic above, I would suggest 3 types of firearm:

The Double-barrelled Shotgun

Only short range (up to 30 yards), only 2 shots. Emergency defense weapon, limited hunting capability.

The Revolver

Short to medium range (up to 50 yards), can fire 6 shots in close succession. Versatile weapon.

The good, old Enfield-Rifle (as already implemented)

Short to long range (up to 150 yards), 10 rounds bolt-action, thus slow rate of fire. Emergency defense weapon, good hunting capability.

All these weapons would fit perfectly in this crude, wilderness scenario and would'nt give a big advantage against the predators, to the player. Especially not, at constant ammo scarcity and roaming wolf packs.

Additionally one or two more self-crafted weapons, like a boar spear or a boomerang, would also be a great improvement.

[akodo1]

At the beginning I had scrupulously respected the fact that my body temperature does not drop to zero, until the point I noticed : Aha, I've still got plenty of time when I'm numb! The expedition can indeed go on then.

To my mind, the body temperature drops rapidly and you don’t die fast enough in relation, once the body is "numb ", that the coldness just couldn’t become a real enemy.

In particular, if, for example, the character is numb and overtired, the player should be forced to act immediately, so he doesn’t die.

I think part of the issue is the words they choose to describe the condition.

What exactly is 'numb'? Note that numb is the condition you are at when the clock starts it's two-hour countdown towards the early stages of hypothermia. If that's the case, then it absolutely fits that you aren't actually going to be all that hindered.

Same with 'starvation'...it's counting calories until you hit zero...that's zero from your last meal, not the fat stores your body has, which is why you can continue on...and should be able to continue on for a lot longer than the game allows you...without any real hinderance.

Think about how different your attitude toward the game would be if the warmth bar was Warm -> Chilly vs Warm -> Numb.

[Schaumrolle24]

An interesting comparison you mentioned, indeed. And thanks for your reply!

I have to make some more tests ingame, until I run on, about this.

[cekivi]

Eh, the weapon variety as is should be fine. Especially since this is Canada, not the United States. Finding a shotgun? Probable. Finding a revolver (and ammo)? Extremely unlikely. We are not a nation that idolizes guns - especially handguns

Although having a shotgun for rabbit shooting would be interesting, I don't think the effort required to implement it and its unique ammunition would add much to the game.

[Schaumrolle24]

Eh, the weapon variety as is should be fine. Especially since this is Canada, not the United States. Finding a shotgun? Probable. Finding a revolver (and ammo)? Extremely unlikely. We are not a nation that idolizes guns - especially handguns

Although having a shotgun for rabbit shooting would be interesting, I don't think the effort required to implement it and its unique ammunition would add much to the game.

Thanks for the comment!

So we agreed that shotguns are probable. Good.

But as we can see gruesomely, on a todays example, Canada's gun-related murder rate is higher as in england, or germany, for instance.

Handguns maybe scarce in Canada. Still it's plausible to find some. The same is true for germany. As said here before, all kinds of firearms should be a very, very rare find.

[Schaumrolle24]

6.) No differences between the player characters

I really would like to see a little differentiation, when I play one of the two characters, more than different voices and a changed HUD-picture. I has to feel different!

Here's just some food for thought:

Less calorie store for the gal, but also less calorie consumption. -20% sounds good.

Reason: Women are smaller, lighter and have less muscle mass (in average, for sure! There are alot of girls out there, who could easy clobber me! So no offence!)

Separate start skill sets. The guy could be better with fire starting the girl with repairing stuff, for instance. Or it could be a random skill set with certain tendencies, varying on every new game startup.

Different body constitution. The girl could be more sturdy against physical damage and has a better pain endurance (less pain killers needed). In return, the guy could be more tolerant against the cold.

Better first aid skills for the girl, better weapon handling for the guy.

Just thinking...

[Schaumrolle24]

7.) Inconsistent AI of the wild animals

Deers

By far the most annoying on this point, are deers galloping around completely mindless. Almost trampling the player down sometimes, like it wanted to say: "Hey, I am a keen prey - please kill me!"

It doesn't look like they are fleeing, it is just awful. Deer flight-mechanics really needs reworking.

Wolves

Depending on the difficulty wolves should be more often seen in small packs with 2-3 animals.

Nevertheless that they a slow chasers, they quit their pursuit very quickly, right know. I think, the wolf threat can be increased on "Stalker" and maybe a bit on "Voyageur", too.

Marginal note: I think you guys know that, but wolves don't bark so much. They can, but when they do it, their barking is mainly compounded with howling. However you can hear them barking very often ingame. It pretty sounds much more like dog, than a wolf.

I'd love to hear wolves howling much more. Especially afar during night - you could even hear them dulled, inside a building - man, that would give me goosebumps!

Oh yeah, besides that: Timberwolves have a very variable palett of different coat colours. Some are black, some are white, most of them are brown or a mix of all three colours:

http://www.mtcmediaproductions.com/images/animals/timberwolf1305.jpg

Bears

Bears are quite okay so far, but their roaming also looks weird and pointless to me.

[Schaumrolle24]

8.) No orientation help

I like that the game makes it often hard for the player, and punishes him when he does something wrong. I really appreciate that. Sometimes it even punishes the player, when he does it right. That's the style! :mrgreen:

For me it isn't hard enough - on "Stalker".

I think the devs want to guide the gamer through the world, by using distinctive landmarks and through his personal exploration experiences.

Still, an orientation help would be nice. It could be just a compass.

But I would prefer a freehand sketch map. Everytime a new location is discovered, a bit more of the map is added by hand with a pencil (automatically). The players location should'nt be shown on the map (maybe on "Pilgrim"). This could assist the gamers, especially new members, who don't know the maps so well.

[cekivi]

I've actually seen a freehand map and map/compass requested in a lot of alpha wishlists. Including some of mine

Hopefully it gets added one of these days...

[Schaumrolle24]

I've actually seen a freehand map and map/compass requested in a lot of alpha wishlists. Including some of mine

Hopefully it gets added one of these days...

Yeah, mate! Let's look forward to this.

9.) Too rapid expiration of clothing and food

Okay, last but not least food spoiling and clothing wearout.

I understand the point of food spoiling and I like it pretty much, as it is.

Maybe canned food, MREs and stuff like this could use a bit of rethinking concerning this point.

But I dislike the speed of clothing wearout, especially during a storm.

It's okay, that clothing looses about 1 % per week because of the everyday outdoor duty.

It's okay, that clothing gets damaged during wildlife attacks, falls, etc.

And it is still okay, that wear and tear of your stuff is a bit higher during a (snow) storm.

But not in this manner!

Example:

I checked the condition of my clothing every day, multiple times. I kept everything above 70 %.

One day, I was forced to walk through a heavy snow storm. I took me 1 maybe 2 (ingame) hours to reach my destination. I used wind cover where possible. But after that, I had to notice that some of my gear lost about 25% condition! What the heck?!? For real?! Was my winter coat made of blotting paper?

I beg you - rethink about this!