Realistic thirst and hunger

[reficul999]

The amount of food and water I have to consume daily is REALLY unrealistic. The fact that sleeping for 8 hours can give me full on dehydration is stupid. No-one needs 4 to 5 kg of meat and 4 to 5 litres of water a day just to survive. I would like to see the time it takes both of these meters to go down DOUBLED.

[nicko]

I don't think you need that much per day.

you may use more if you overloaded with extra weight/clothing or working hard it seems.

[danicusrex]

around 4kg of meat is a little excessive. that's eight pounds of meat per day.

[DarkUncleBoh]

I think the consumption rates are a bit higher than they should be in general, but for me the real issue is when idle/sleeping or doing light activity vs. heavy activity.

Heavy activity, carrying a decent chunk of gear, moving around through snow and over inclines, and chopping/harvesting/etc -- all while in the cold so your body is burning more calories than it normally would anyhow.

Real life example: My brother used to work two part time jobs, one in construction (helping to tear down old houses) and the other being a lifeguard at a water park (VERY active in the summer months). During July/August, he would eat 6,000 calories a day and stay at the same weight. If he were on a pure beef diet, that would be 7.5 pounds of beef per day...

Back to the game: So personally I don't have that much of a problem with the consumption rates when we're out and doing strenuous things (still think it is a little high, but only a bit). What I have a problem with is the less strenuous activities.

- sleeping

- cooking meat

- fishing

- sewing

These sorts of things should have the consumption rates way down. At the same time, body temperature plays a major role in calorie burning in the body (body burns a lot more calories trying to stay warm) - and ambient air temperature plays a big role in respiratory fluid loss (you dehydrate a lot faster in cold air)... as such I'd like to see ambient temperature play more of a role in the game. Right now it feels like it is balanced for it being cold all of the time --- but if you're sleeping inside, under the covers, in warm clothing, in a room across from a roaring fire... then you should wake up a bit thirsty, but not dehydrated etc.

[Boss Llama]

I think one of the other issues at play is how the calorie counts work on the various foods. The meats have way way way way too few calories for their weight (A kilo of rabbit meat should have 1750 calories, not 450. A kilo of venison should have 1500 calories, not 800, and bear should be 2600, not 900. I can't find wolf, thankfully), while other things have far too many calories for their weight (a 12oz can of coke, for example, should have 140 calories and weight 407 grams - the in-game canned beverages have 250 calories and weight 250 grams). This completely throws off our mental math for what reasonable intake is. In game, meat is the worst possible food by weight.

The other thing that makes it feel off to me is that junk calories are counted just as highly as quality calories. Using the examples from above, you will be more efficient if your character carries and lives off of soda than if you carry and live off of cooked meat, with the added bonus that the sodas will also slake thirst. In game, two cans (half a kilo) of soda are better than a whole kilo of rabbit meat, despite the fact that IRL the sodas would have something like one sixth the calories of the meat.

The above things are pretty silly, but this is a game and it's in alpha, so we have to run the numbers and find what's efficient in this setting. The ultimate efficiency food in the game is currently salty crackers, at a whopping 6000 calories per kilogram (Slightly generous, but not horrible... both Ritz and Cheez-Its would give you about 5000 cal/kg), followed by Energy Bars (5000cal/kg - about right), and Beef Jerky & MREs, both at 3500cal/kg (high end of accurate for jerky, overly generous for MREs based on US specs, which are 1250 cals for 510g-740g, depending, Canadian military rations may be different?). The worst foods in the game are the cooked game meats (450-900cal/kg, see above numbers), peaches (900cal/kg - more than IRL), and tomato soup (1200cal/kg - also way too many compared to RL).

At some point, we just have to let reality go on these things, though I do agree that meat needs to... not suck. Also, the current numbers seem to equate the size of the animal with the nutritional value derived from its meat. That's true for full carcasses perhaps, but not when comparing like-portions! At the moment, I just run around with 10 energy bars and a couple liters of water in my pack. 5000 calories and the water to back them up, for less than the weight of half those calories in deer meat.

[Boston123]

I still find it weird that the "maximum" number of calories we can consume is still 2500. I would try to eat at least 5000 a day, and that is with me just laying around a cabin! Walking around, hunting, and carrying heavy loads requires much more energy, on top of the increase in metabolic rate due to the low temperatures. Last January (where it was -5 degrees F, with heavy wind), at a Scouting event, I ate about 5000-6000 calories.

Of course, the "animal meats being low in calories" thing isn't helped by the fact that we are 1) eating only lean meat, and 2) apparently frying/roasting it (listen to the sounds of cooking. Hear that sizzle?)

In an actual survival situation, you want to be eating EVERYTHING on the animal that is edible..... EVERYTHING. Lean muscle meat, fat, organ meats, bone marrow. Just eating fat and bone marrow can give you a LOT more caloric energy than an equivalent portion of muscle meat. And, we need "better" ways to cook it.

Roasting/frying meat is probably the most energy-INEFFICIENT means of cooking it, as it loses the most fat and caloric content. That sizzling sounds? That is fat cooking off. In real life, I boil almost all of my "outdoor food", as boiling both 1) leaches calories the least and 2) leaves all of the fat. When you boil meat, you can get almost all of the calories and fat by drinking the broth formed, as well as ensuring that the meat will be properly cooked. If boiled meat doesn't sound too appetizing, just make soup. Add in some bones (for the marrow), boil them, then add whatever else you have + water. It will 1) make food supplies last longer, as you need less ingredients to make soup, 2) ensure you get the most of the available calories and nutrients, 3) essentially eliminates the possibility of food poisoning, 4) lets you save food 'for later". When you are full, take the pot of soup and put it outside. It will freeze. When you are hungry again, break off a chunk of the soup-ice, and reheat.

I also am a bit surprised that there isn't some sort of "dried staple" food available, like rice or flour. I watched a TV special called "The Last Alaskans", and all of the families had at least one 55 gallon drum filled with dried food, mainly rice or pasta. It would be an energy-rich, versatile food. And, yeah, you probably wouldn't want to carry around a 20 lb bag of rice, but that would mean you would have to plan ahead and take what you need.

[danicusrex]

Yep, stew with rice. One of the most efficient meals I know of. And delicious.

[DarkUncleBoh]

The other thing that makes it feel off to me is that junk calories are counted just as highly as quality calories.

This is one of the reasons why I'd like to see a nutrition/wellness mechanic added.

Example:

7 Days to Die has the same "problem" -- food isn't really anything other than something to add calories. Using the modding capability there, I created a modded nutrition system where you can survive off of just any calories, but junk food isn't going to keep you in top health - and there is actually some benefit to a balanced/varied diet.

The result is a system that adds an entire additional layer to survival based choices, with higher caloric density foods not necessarily being the "best option" in any given situation. It also meant that when you've been living off of nothing but meat for a while, finding some vegetables is an exciting thing - and you end up wanting to space them out and make them last, rather than simply consuming them first since they take up more space (being lower in caloric density).

All of the players on my server love the change - praising how it makes food far more interesting.

I've always felt that in a survival game, food spoilage and nutrition/balance are the two mechanics that add the most "interesting choices" to the food side of survival (and is why some of the most popular Hunger/Thirst mods for other games are as popular as they are). TLD already has one of those two mechanics... would love to see the other implemented at the same time.

[selfless]

"Calories" in game are no longer real-life calories. They are game-nutritional-units. I wish they would call them that so I can stop reading posts about how real-life calories are different.

Regardless, to need 5kg of meat per day you must be chopping wood or some such activity for 8 of those hours (EDIT: or eating rabbit or fish). 5 liters of water seems impossible without first contracting dysentery. Normal activity levels require eating only once per day and drinking twice (Stalker level), far less than most people are used to in real-life. Not high at all, IMO.

[Everis]

In short, I believe these things need to happen.

Higher calorie intake, depending on physical activity and outside temperatures.

Realistic calorie count per weight.

Increased harvest potential from animals ( decrease the amount of animals available for balance)

Increase risk to reward ratio for obtaining meat.

Hopefully this is what we are all thinking.

[Warg]

[glow=red][/glow]

In an actual survival situation, you want to be eating EVERYTHING on the animal that is edible..... EVERYTHING. Lean muscle meat, fat, organ meats, bone marrow. Just eating fat and bone marrow can give you a LOT more caloric energy than an equivalent portion of muscle meat. And, we need "better" ways to cook it.

When you boil meat, you can get almost all of the calories and fat by drinking the broth formed, as well as ensuring that the meat will be properly cooked.

This is an interesting topic! And a melting pot ( ) of ideeas!

I do wholeheartedly agree with some of them, but mainly Boston123's and would like them in-game

- I do agree cooking, fishing, sewing should be less strenuous than are now, I mean you're sitting and generally wait for something to happen (either add a log, turn the food, catch a fish). Ok, sewing and producing items is more intensive.

- boiling food to maximize use of what little you can get hold of: you'd break the bone for marrow, eat almost everything from the carcass (brain, sinew, fat, eyes). Plus, boiling it also covers the water intake and perhaps a herbal tea, all in one but it would be an indoor activity (large pot, long time needed). Plus no food poisoning and having x lumps of broth for later (it's freezing in the cabin, why not?). Kudos, Boston123 !

I have no objection to be a gluttonous beast neading 5 steaks a day or with the caloric values chosed by devs: it's their choice and the main drive to keep the game active (if a bit monotonous).

I would do like a current table of activities and their caloric cost (updated) or, better, how much arduous are they expected to be than just sitting still in the cabin, with all 4 needs at 100%?

I mean, running consumes calories about twice the rate of walking but what is the ratio between walking and standing?

Do I expend calories faster if I'm colder, thirstier, hungrier or tired? How much so?

I believe cooking or just sitting by the fire generates thirst at an accelerated rate, from the radiant heat. How much so?

It being a survival game, the player should know those ratios and make a survival choice: do I do that, with these estimated consequences, or do I rough it, with these other consequences?

All is based on previous experience: If I ware for real to have caught a rabbit, I would have an ideea from experience how long and dificult it would be to harvest it and weather or not I would cary it whole and do it nighttime in the cabin. Same with a dear chunk (a leg or so).

What I would like is:

- fishing: if the line is gut (food for fish) with a needle at the end (not food for fish), why would they bite the metal? Just from my raising and lowering it in the water or from the amount of knot fixing the needle? Where is the lure?

- passive fishing: perhaps I could set 3 lines with lures and catch about the same ammount without having to sit by that hole doing nothing else (like a trap)? Perhaps I'd go to a nearby hut and boil me some water.

- cooking: it should not be neading my whole atention for turning it 3 or 4 times in the pan. I could have a roast cooking and water melting at the same time, while repairing something. If I forget, the food burns (perhaps with audio reminders like "snif snif, shit, it is burning!", water evaporates entirely, fire burns out.

- cooking: mapple/birch/fir needles/bark added as ressource, they are everywhere and much more frequent than the few greens in-game. At least for vitamin C in the drinking water and staving off disease.

- crafting: ever heard of bone arrowheads (with a gritty enough rock and a knife, a bone can be shaped), cord for bow from the winter coat waist line, cord from electrical wires, spear from about everything, sled from any 2 branches and a cord, box for carrying embers for the next fire, that zero-tech friction firestarter, cord for raising in the trees what you cannot carry, repearing a knife (sharpening) only needs a gritty stone for hundreds of times, same for hatchet (though possibly once in a while the handle breaks or gets loose and you need a branch and knife to make another), tree moss or leaves as tinder (once dried), sled or even shield against wolves from any sheet of metal and a bit of rope....

Anyway, got a little off topic...and while I was "in the zone" Wolfie left with my second best part!!

Bad wolfie!!