Number of bugs seems to have increased 10fold

[Burning Bridges]

This can never happen if you're game is written towards an engine you don't control, like Unity.

This is also the reason why many developers wouldn't use one-stop game engines, especially not Unity. The time saved at the beginning can have a very hefty price in the long run.

[DenverDad]

I did not say they had no idea what they're doing, I said they "are not in full control".

This can never happen if you're game is written towards an engine you don't control, like Unity. And that's the problem the devs are facing, players don't care if the game crashes because of a bug in the engine that the devs need to work around or if their own code has a bug. From the OPs description it sure sounds to me like an issue with the engine and not the game code, Unity is not known to be the most stable and bugfree engine out there. I also don't think that Unity let's you hack the engine itself, everything you do in Unity is within it's constraints and therefor it's the engines job to not crash. That's not to say you cannot write code in Unity that crashes because it is written wrong, but this would affect much more players than the handful complaining now about crashes.

By sending in your debug logs the devs have a chance to figure out if they need to work around an issue with the engine or if they did some wacky coding that does not work as they expected. Given the combined experience the team has, my money regarding crashes would be on the engine

That was not me who said that

This can never happen if you're game is written towards an engine you don't control, like Unity.

This is also the reason why many developers wouldn't use one-stop game engines, especially not Unity. The time saved at the beginning can have a very hefty price in the long run.

True but... as the complexity of games grows and the expectations from players increases it becomes harder and harder for small studios to write their own engines from the ground up. There are plenty of successful games out there written on engines (or modified engines) provided by third parties and I firmly believe an upgrade to Unity 5 will address many of these issues.

[Burning Bridges]

I think it depends on the number of people working on a game. If it's a small team (1-3) where everyone understands everything, it's often better to make your own engine. But if you have >10 and people who are completely dependent on editors and tools, a complete engine has its disadvantages. Making your own can be more straightforward because there are good libraries for graphics, sound, physics. For example the Penumbra engine was written by 2 guys, and it has almost everything that you would need to make games similar to TLD.

[ChillPlayer]

To write an engine you need a completely different skill set as a programmer than to write a game, not to mention that small "indi" developers seldom get the love from Nvidia and ATI as say Unreal or Unity probably get. Being able to get the most out of a graphic card is a crutial part of a game engine, 2D Platform engines like GameMaker and such set aside, and being able to work with the gfx card manufactures directly helps alot. The studios that succesfully have written an engine just for one single game either have a huge amount of money and therefor developers (Rockstar) or the games don't have huge demands in the graphics departement, like RTS, city builders and such. The one exception I can think of is CryTek with their engine for Far Cry and Crysis - came out of nowhere and still prevails.

A small studio working on a FP based game like TLD would be totally consumed just by the engine and when they finally finish the engine, technology will be so far progressed that there yet-to-be-written game is already outdated. So yes, if you have a team of some hyper-insomatic-but-genious-developer-gods your own engine is definitely preferable - but that is not a reality for most small studios.

Btw, the fact that hinterland chose Unity over Unreal or any other high-end/high-price engine should tell you why they didn't write their own engine

[tsotha]

One of my favorite lines is "the best way to reduce bugs is to stop putting them in".

This might sound nonsensical to users of software who have become used to the mantra that bugs in software are inevitable. I personally never liked that mantra. Because even if having no bugs is an impossibility, 99% of bugs are avoidable, and people should be more critical of programmers who appear to not be on their toes (not directed at anyone here, mind you).

It's true we (as an profession, anyway) know how to produce bug-free (or nearly so) software. It's also true that it's just too expensive. No game company can afford the processes it would have to put into place to produce bug-free software. There's a reason you only see those processes in military and finance projects. Game buyers are not going to shell out $500 for a game, no matter how tight it is.

[Burning Bridges]

@ChillPlayer A programmer can take the required libraries and make his own game engine in anything from a week or so. Of course it lacks tools and does not hold your hand but it's really not that hard. I have no idea why you think it's like climbing Mount Everest.

[Majales]

@ChillPlayer A programmer can take the required libraries and make his own game engine in anything from a week or so. Of course it lacks tools and does not hold your hand but it's really not that hard. I have no idea why you think it's like climbing Mount Everest.

You did this before? Or do you have some other experience with creation of games? Show us some of your work. Some game or game engine you created or helped create. Show us how it's done. I'm sw developer myself, but I'm far from telling game developers, how to do their jobs, because this isn't my area of expertise.

[Burning Bridges]

This is getting a bit silly now. A software developer would understand what I wrote.

Also sorry for going off topic, I am just not too fond of the Unity engine.

[Denyo]

Guys,guys...keep this topic in way of constructive dialogue and criticism.No need to start flamable war.

Otherwise,if this continue to be arguing topic about things,which I am sure developers can deal proffessional with,I suggest admin to simply close this topic.

If I speak in my name...I do also encounter many bugs and also few crashes sometimes...but I have completely trust in developers and I have also one important value.I have patience.I can accept any issue in phase of developing game,coz I have complete trust,that final product will give us stunnning and unique experience.

So...patience,trust and understanding,my frends.That is all,what we need and what Hinterland team deserves to get from us.We all had milions of proves,that they DO CARE.

Peace,love,respect.

[Burning Bridges]

Ok, in my opinion the thread can be locked by a moderator. I already know what is going to happen now. More people like Majales will come and question this or that statement I made, and the discussion will spin in circles in ways and topics that are not interesting to anyone. I made mistakes, in particular to go off topic on questions which have nothing to do here. At times I get a bit too invested if I like a game. I should have other things to do. If the crashes go away with future versions everything is fine, if not, I know other and better places to discuss it. Sorry again for bringing this up, such topics always end up locked one way or another.

[bethany]

In that case, I'm locking this one up. It's becoming argumentative and I think the point's been made. We've heard the feedback and are working every day to fix any existing issues.

Please move forward and keep things civil. Keep threads on topic, be respectful of each other, and avoid conflict. I'm a big fan of letting people work things out for themselves, but an even bigger fan of maintaining this forum as a welcoming place.