Wolf behaviour could use some work

[odizzido]

So I played a little of the winter's embrace challenge and I found myself exploiting wolves now that I know how they work. I don't really have an issue with exploiting wolves in principle, but the predictability and reliability was something I didn't like.

Here is the thing, I know the moment I aim a weapon the wolf will go insane whether it can see me or not. This means I can reliably manipulate the wolf's position to my advantage, which I did. Again I don't have a problem with manipulating things to your advantage but it's supposed to be a wolf not this all seeing algorithm that you can input X into and get Y every time.

Also do wolves understand archery? I've always found it off that they respond the way they do. Gameplay wise I understand why you guys tried doing it that way but now that I am used to it it's actually easier than it was before.

 

Anyways I don't have a good idea for a solution that's easy, but I did want to bring it up as something to think about.

[gotmilkanot]

Agree, the black wolves become so easy to kill once you have a ranged weapon that they aren't even a threat anymore.

This is exactly why I actually prefer timberwolves since their behaviour is more unpredictable, making the whole encounter more challenging and less boring.

Edited July 8, 2020 by gotmilkanot

[sonics01]

From the day 1 of bow and rifle, I figured out that wolf AI reacts to aiming mouse click. I can "slightly" aim, just pose a aiming motion and loose, and let the wolf rush to me, then I can kill him where I want. Yeah, more patterns of wolf AI would be great, and more timbers around all maps would be great. But some will don't like these options, so they should be selectable options. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

Well the wolf AI has received several changes over the last few updates to address this, with varying success, I might say.

There is also something to be said about random elements vs. predictability in game play. I realise that the current behaviour of especially normal wolves might feel "dull" and exploitable. On the other hand, however, there already is a high amount of random chance in the game. The accumulation of several misfortunes at once can make a nice stroll in the snow become your green mile rather quickly. Contracting the 1% chance food poisoning from everyone's favorite sardines and running into a blizzard literally killed me just a few days ago - in Mystery Lake, of all places. Introducing even more random chance to how wolves behave would make facing them on Interloper a pretty damn no go.

I know that you (@sonics01) are probably playing Stalker or Voyageur - or some variation of that - with your ideas about how to improve the rifle. That's fine, and there's nothing bad to say about that. But I don't. I play Interloper, and don't want to change that. Interloper is mostly about avoiding unneccesary risks and taking good chances because a negative outcome can easily be your undoing. Even well rested and well equipped a close encounter with a wolf is a serious hazard that can easily lead to several days of recovery being in order. If I now couldn't even somewhat reliably predict how a wolf behaves I would probably never touch them until I hit Archery V, meaning I have the drop on them, simply because facing wolves otherwise would be just too dangerous. And yeah, even now it is already always a gamble.

Also: I'm a big fan of giving players a chance to learn a game. With experience comes expertise, and well, that certain breed of wolves on Great Bear Island has a few unique characteristics you will learn to understand and predict over time. Just interpret it as a rough abstraction of Trapper's Wisdom. Because otherwise ... it's just a game of chance. And the more chance there is in a game the less the player even matters. (Which is why I like Chess )

[sonics01]

4 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

I know that you (@sonics01) are probably playing Stalker or Voyageur - or some variation of that - with your ideas about how to improve the rifle. That's fine, and there's nothing bad to say about that. But I don't. I play Interloper, and don't want to change that. Interloper is mostly about avoiding unneccesary risks and taking good chances because a negative outcome can easily be your undoing. Even well rested and well equipped a close encounter with a wolf is a serious hazard that can easily lead to several days of recovery being in order. If I now couldn't even somewhat reliably predict how a wolf behaves I would probably never touch them until I hit Archery V, meaning I have the drop on them, simply because facing wolves otherwise would be just too dangerous. And yeah, even now it is already always a gamble.

I'm playing both - loper and stalker. Both of them survived slightly more than 100 days. Regarding custom mode I suggested in survival game forum, I only survived 10 days (all in-game time) and that custom mode is even more challenging than loper: Everything same with loper, but no recovery at usual and low recovery at rest, much aggressive wildlife setting (higher blood/meat smell strength, and wider wildlife detection range). It is challenging custom setting, not like ATDS, but still challenging.  

Yeah, wolf close encounter can finish any loper or loper-grade-custom games. I'm not denying, tens of characters has been perished so far from my account, especially loper games, due to coldness and 2~3 wolf/bear encounters. Especially at early stage. I prefer HRV start for my loper game, and wolves in HRV really loves "hummies"  

But I still want to see more challenge. 

Frankly, I'm not sure if I had any issues against wolves from the moment when I equipped with bow and arrow. I don't need med-range (around 50m) sniping archery, just close range headshot is getting easier and easier as I get more experience. Maybe I played other FPS games and had low learning curve to archery of TLD? But anyway, I even play with Timbers in BI only with bow and arrows. Once you know the pattern and know how to select a "good place" to fight, it is not that bad. Especially from archery level 5, you can even ambush them since their detection range decreases when you crouched down. 

In fact, as my birch samples are running low (I need more beach combing), I even intentionally choose to struggle against wolves, since my protection is not that bad, and for some reason struggle using hammer against wolves usually bring me good results. Hatchet is a good choice as well. That way, I think I could save more supplies for bows and arrows. But fatigue level is important for struggle. If it is too cold and if fatigue is below 50%, it is better to throw a meat and run away or use flare.  

What I wish is a some sort of progressive wolf AI. First start with usual normal wolf AI. But, as time progress, let's assume wolves learn from experiences against "hummies", and being smart. So, increase one or two charge patterns like serpentine every 20 days, and increase new patrol pattern every 20 days, or change patrol area to major road networks with abundant covers, where the chance of sudden ambush engagement increases, and rotate those "hot spots" every 20 days.  Or, it might be possible to increase/change patterns or change patrol area based on number of wolf kills of the character, like increase/change patterns or change patrol area every 20 wolf kills. Such "progressive predator AI" should be selectable option, so that players who don't want too tough challenge can just simply rule out new AI and play with old AI.  

Timber pack in other maps is also a good idea IMO, but I also know some ppl don't want to see that, so I think this should be an option too. 

These are not realistic wolf behavior, but well, this game already begins with many unrealistic features so...

Edited July 10, 2020 by sonics01

[odizzido]

I just don't want to be able to agro a wolf, use my aim key to make it charge to where I want like clockwork, then hop in a car and have it kill a deer for me. The behaviour is so predictable that I feel quite safe doing this.

Also as mentioned by someone else, because they charge the moment you aim you can get them in good spots where their movement is predictable with a very high degree of accuracy making it really easy to track and it's almost impossible to miss. They just end up being a food delivery service.

The only way they can fix it without changing the behaviour to be a little more complex is to have them strafing and rolling around like they're UT2004 players. That's also terrible.

 

As I said, I don't have any amazing ideas. From what I understand is that wolves will act.....well, a lot more like the timberwolves in the game really. They're pretty decent from what I've seen. People would be unhappy to have timberwolves everywhere though.....at least with how it is in bleak inlet. Maybe if there was just one pack in the map and they can path everywhere so it was a rare but dangerous encounter.

 

I've mentioned before that I think the regular solo wolves should just be renamed dogs. They're much more similar to dogs than wolves, and it would fit with the world. Maybe it's too much for the devs to have us kill Ms Jackson's beloved dog scruffles though /shrug. Bonus feel bad points if they put a collar with a name tag you can look at for each dog. "Sorry, cooper" your character says as you chop it up for meat.

[Guest jeffpeng]

8 hours ago, sonics01 said:

I'm playing both - loper and stalker. Both of them survived slightly more than 100 days. Regarding custom mode I suggested in survival game forum, I only survived 10 days (all in-game time) and that custom mode is even more challenging than loper: Everything same with loper, but no recovery at usual and low recovery at rest, much aggressive wildlife setting (higher blood/meat smell strength, and wider wildlife detection range). It is challenging custom setting, not like ATDS, but still challenging.

Switch it around. Do minimum recovery when awake, no recovery when sleeping. My record with this is somewhere in the high 200's.

8 hours ago, sonics01 said:

Frankly, I'm not sure if I had any issues against wolves from the moment when I equipped with bow and arrow. I don't need med-range (around 50m) sniping archery, just close range headshot is getting easier and easier as I get more experience. Maybe I played other FPS games and had low learning curve to archery of TLD? But anyway, I even play with Timbers in BI only with bow and arrows. Once you know the pattern and know how to select a "good place" to fight, it is not that bad. Especially from archery level 5, you can even ambush them since their detection range decreases when you crouched down. 

As things are now bow and arrow are pretty damn reliable. But for my taste it's still not worth it most of the time. Even a 10% chance of missing the shot are pretty good odds you'll wind up dead earlier in the game. As with every game of chance: repeat it often enough, and you'll approach certainty. So, until I hit Archery V, I only hunt wolves when I actually need something from them I cannot get otherwise or cannot shake a wolf loose for whatever reason. But if there would be - for example - random evasion tactics employed by the wolf? Hu. I guess I would outright drop hunting wolves before I can crouch-snipe them - unless there would be some other mitigations to offset that, like lower wolf damage, or easier struggles.

8 hours ago, odizzido said:

As I said, I don't have any amazing ideas. From what I understand is that wolves will act.....well, a lot more like the timberwolves in the game really. They're pretty decent from what I've seen. People would be unhappy to have timberwolves everywhere though.....at least with how it is in bleak inlet. Maybe if there was just one pack in the map and they can path everywhere so it was a rare but dangerous encounter.

I don't think there's a lot wrong with timberwolves. That they actively dodge your aim puts me off every time, but aside from that - they are generally fine. They just do way too much damage on Loper to justify messing with them. There just isn't enough dough in Bleak Inlet to risk your game for it.

8 hours ago, odizzido said:

I've mentioned before that I think the regular solo wolves should just be renamed dogs. They're much more similar to dogs than wolves, and it would fit with the world. Maybe it's too much for the devs to have us kill Ms Jackson's beloved dog scruffles though /shrug. Bonus feel bad points if they put a collar with a name tag you can look at for each dog. "Sorry, cooper" your character says as you chop it up for meat.

That's dark..... 😆 I mean .... people keep asking for dogs to be added into the game ..... Not sure that's what they mean, but hey... technically..... 😅

[odizzido]

Ah yeah I forgot that they dodge like that. Yeah, that's something I don't like as much. Hopefully we can modify wolf behaviour when mods come out. I would love to prevent them from dodging like it's unreal tournament but give them pretty significant bleed damage on their attacks.

[sonics01]

I think, just introducing some smart AI to normal wolf might be a solution. Key is, wolves should be more unpredictable, and should be more dangerous then now.

1) Sudden break and turn during charge, just like current Timberwolf maneuver.

2) Don't make wolf 100% charge when being aimed

3) "Crazy ivan maneuver" = sudden fast switching from flee to charge (180 degree turn)  

4) Then, introduce Timbers to other maps as well. 

5) Reduce the base number and spawn chance of wolf, but increase patrol range.

6) Add more patrol pattern to induce more "ambush" 

7) Increase health of wolf, so that nothing can kill wolf instantly except headshot and/or critical hit. 

This way, wolf will be something like @odizzido described. But this will make everyone's life in TLD really harsh, especially loper and loper-grade customs. And players who don't want to see challenge will not like such option, so... I guess there should be more options for "wolf AI difficulty". With more options, let the custom mode can open the feat as well. 

On the other hand, I think, introducing new predator type, like polar bears and some big cats, may resolve some issues about wolves. I mean, in different ways. Keep the wolves as it is (but maybe change name to stray dogs) and introduce puma and polar bear for example with their own unique characteristic. This would introduce additional challenge from different direction. I guess the idea of big cats and polar bear should be suggested in this forum a lot of times. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by sonics01