Semi-manual Cartography

[Daedalus]

So far I am absolutely loving The Long Dark!

Here's my suggestion, or wish: semi-manual cartography. In other words: map-making. I've already got lost several times (sometimes resulting in death) and I think it would be great to be not only able to explore areas, but also to map them for future reference.

To be consistent with the general gameplay, you need to put time, energy and resources into creating a map of an area. Nothing is for free. Here's a suggestion of the mapmaking process:

1. You need pen and paper (could be new materials, or currently existing such as hides, this is a mere detail)
   
2. Find a place with a good view of the surrounding and sit down
   
3. Open a map, click where you want to start drawing, then hold the mouse in the direction you want to draw
   
4. You will see the map being drawn (crude, not highly detailed) and can move the mouse to expand the area you're drawing
   
5. Once finished/satisfied, you can move to a new area.
   
6. Importantly! Whenever you want to expand the initial mapped area, you have to make sure you start drawing the new area in the correct place on your map (e.g. you can actually screw up your map by drawing two locations next to each other which aren't actually next to each other).

Integration with a compass would be excellent as well.

What do you think?

[Hatchet]

The reason why i didn't brought this up was because i thought it would be very hard to do with a controllor and i'm not really into giving certain platforms more or different experiences than on other platforms when it's the same game, so while i think it's a great idea it'd be (atleast in my eyes) very hard to properly implement a system where console players can draw maps.

With that said, i do want to speculate a bit further on this topic.

Pens would be difficulty to come across, ink cartridges wouldn't freeze very fast but if there was ink in the pen it would ruin the pen, but it'd still be possible with a quill.

So charcoal would most defenitly do the trick when one would run out of ink.

[Daedalus]

How I envision it, you wont need to draw the map yourself, but only point in the direction/area you want to have drawn. Basically the same as aiming a rifle. That way, it'll work on any platform.

[Dirmagnos]

I seriously doubt that one can draw even remotely accurate map by simply sitting on top of the hill. Perspective will be all wrong, that even without various disturbances, like weather conditions. Protagonist would require some serious cartography skills to be able to make anything useful.

[Daedalus]

Fair enough. On the other hand, (s)he can also clean and fix rifles, skin ans gut a bear, and crack a safe

But it is a goos point.

I was thinking of ways of making it more realistic. To get distances you only need some info (and some calculations in your head). A compass provides parts of the info, even from a static position. If you use it while walking you can technically calculate the remainder info needed for fairy accurate maps.

[Dirmagnos]

Realistic would be find proper map(s) in some buildings. We are in the middle of nowhere and having basic navigation items, like compass and map(along other things), in household is pretty much a musthave, especially if were dealing with hunters.

Also, cleaning rifle is not exactly a rocket science, skinning and gutting require mainly practice(altho a lot of it). But point about safe is valid, unless protagonist was moonlighting as safecracker at some point.

[toebar]

getting lost/not getting lost is part of survival. I don't favor any sort of mapping in which the drawing is done for you---this would take the game on the wrong path of being more similar to the many other open world games out there that.

Having a blank page to draw on would be fine (or you can draw on your desk while playing--try it, it's actually rather rewarding, even it it does not sound like it would be).

Another way of avoiding getting lost is to mark your trail (e.g. water bottles, cattails, burnt flares... etc)

Regarding pens as mentioned above-- I don't know why they would be hard to come across.. I imagine there would a pen or pencil in most cabins IRL. And freezing typically only stops the ink from flowing while it is frozen. Warm the pen up and it is fine.

[Daedalus]

Agree, automatic mapping (or any automatic system) would seriously damage the amazing authenticy of the game. Having said that, I do think that a manual mapping system could be another amazing addition.

Lets first focus a bit on how it should not be:

• No automatic map drawing (eg while you walk it maps the environment, like in most games)
  
• No automatic positioning (eg always knowing where you are)

In the contrary, it should take time, energy, and some resources. For example, mapping mystery lake with the fishing cabbins and the tiny houses should cost like half a day or so to map. Maybe roughly the same time it takes to walk the perimeter of that area? In fact, walking with a compass while counting steps can give you enough info for a rudenmentory map.

In the end, that's all it should be: a map detailed enough to find the way from e.g. the lake to the the railroad to an adjecent vally. But! Only if you can already figure out your current position in relation to the area you have mapped. If not, you are still absolutely losted. Yet if you find a place with a good view than you can reason where you must be in relation to one of your maps.

[PPartisan]

The most realistic option is probably to draw your own map on pen and paper as you play the game - it would provide the most accurate simulation of what you could produce if you really were in the Canadian wilderness. A lot of fan-made maps are produced this way, and many are of good enough quality to be practical.

That aside, I think a system like the one proposed by Daedalus would produce the best trade-off between realism and simplicity. Another alternative would be a drag-and-drop map editor. This would take more input from the player, but would also be more "authentic". It would also be less involved than drawing everything by hand, which would be horrible with even a a mouse, let alone a controller.

[Dirmagnos]

The most realistic option is probably to draw your own map on pen and paper as you play the game - it would provide the most accurate simulation of what you could produce if you really were in the Canadian wilderness. A lot of fan-made maps are produced this way, and many are of good enough quality to be practical.

That aside, I think a system like the one proposed by Daedalus would produce the best trade-off between realism and simplicity. Another alternative would be a drag-and-drop map editor. This would take more input from the player, but would also be more "authentic". It would also be less involved than drawing everything by hand, which would be horrible with even a a mouse, let alone a controller.

Pretty much all fan-made maps are produced by using games coordinates system, not "by eye". Early maps that were drawn by eye were nowhere near as accurate than newer ones, where all poi are marked based on coordinate system.

Adding to it the fact that protagonist has like 0 familiarity with the area, his chances to draw anything usable are next to none. How exactly would he measure distances, or directions, or elevations, or angles ? 9 out of 10 people would fail to provide accurate range measurement by eye even in urban familiar environment, not to mention in the middle of the woods, where landmarks are far less and far between.

[PPartisan]

Pretty much all fan-made maps are produced by using games coordinates system, not "by eye". Early maps that were drawn by eye were nowhere near as accurate than newer ones, where all poi are marked based on coordinate system.

Ahh ok, thanks, that makes sense . I was going off the fact that a lot of the fan maps I've used in the past have "These maps were made by eyeballing terrain and so may not be accurate" disclaimers attached to them, so I assumed that was how they'd made the whole thing.

Adding to it the fact that protagonist has like 0 familiarity with the area, his chances to draw anything usable are next to none. How exactly would he measure distances, or directions, or elevations, or angles ?

That is actually a really interesting question. If it isn't immediately obvious, I should mention I'm not great at maths, nor do I know much about cartography, but your question gave me a few ideas:

You could measure distance in game with footsteps (which are regular).

You could measure direction from the sun - days last exactly 12hours in TLD, so at sunrise it should be in the East, sunset in the West and at noon (6hours daylight remaining) it would be (I think) South. You should be able to measure direction from the stars too, but I don't believe TLD has a realistic night sky.

At this stage you probably know enough to make something useful, although by no means accurate (i.e. the pond is North from Trappers homestead, distance is however many footsteps).

Taking it further though, you could measure elevations(with some trigonometry...), in the context of the game, with a

. Paper (from books), drawing materials (charcoal from fires), string and weights (fishing lines/scrap metal) already exist in game. If you can't find a protractor, you can make one by folding paper. The calculations involved would imply someone who is quite comfortable with maths, but then again we are playing a crashed pilot, and I believe they are expected to have some mathematical aptitude and to have some training in navigation without electronic equipment.

[illanthropist]

I'd like to see some kind of mapping in the game, a rudimentary fog of war experience that would only allow cartography in perfect weather conditions and the possibility of findable clues too.

e.g

Basic road map in gas station

National park "you are here" boards

The map unlocking would only contain key topography, roads, paths & building landmarks with the ability to use O X [] /\ for markers, what the 4 mean is down to the user.

As to accuracy using pacing techniques (google ranger beads) and Naismith rule along with location & time tracking of the sun to provide reasonable results.

I assume compasses would be out of the question! Given the story is the result of a geomagnetic disaster wouldn't this render them useless?

EDIT: Sorry PPartisan didn't see your post, pretty much what you said though let's not forget there the Doctor too, being a good navigator probably only really works for one protagonist.

[Dirmagnos]

You could measure distance in game with footsteps (which are regular).

You could measure direction from the sun - days last exactly 12hours in TLD, so at sunrise it should be in the East, sunset in the West and at noon (6hours daylight remaining) it would be (I think) South. You should be able to measure direction from the stars too, but I don't believe TLD has a realistic night sky.

At this stage you probably know enough to make something useful, although by no means accurate (i.e. the pond is North from Trappers homestead, distance is however many footsteps).

Footstep distance depends on many factors, starting from terrain steepness and protagonist tiredness level. Measuring by footsteps would probably only work on flat terrain.

While sun could be a factor in measuring directions, from what ive seen you dont see it 4 out of 5 days, so it would be kinda hard to use with any type of reliability.

[Dirmagnos]

I

I assume compasses would be out of the question! Given the story is the result of a geomagnetic disaster wouldn't this render them useless?

There is absolutely no reason for compasses not to work. Main factor for their efficiency is strength of Earths electromagnetic field. Singular emp wont render them useless since they dont have any electronics in them.

So it all comes down to several unknown factors, like was emp a singular event or is it continuous, and its continuous, then what is its strength and amplitude.

[illanthropist]

I

I assume compasses would be out of the question! Given the story is the result of a geomagnetic disaster wouldn't this render them useless?

There is absolutely no reason for compasses not to work. Main factor for their efficiency is strength of Earths electromagnetic field. Singular emp wont render them useless since they dont have any electronics in them.

So it all comes down to several unknown factors, like was emp a singular event or is it continuous, and its continuous, then what is its strength and amplitude.

I'm just basing that on the premise that what's going on is more serious than a few days of solar activity. By all accounts in story mode there will be times when the power grids switch on and off. It takes very little to wreck a compass, the Black Cuillins on the Isle of Skye for example, when ascending those I had to rely on map and eyeballs as the rock formations contained some kind of magnetised ore.

[Dirmagnos]

I'm just basing that on the premise that what's going on is more serious than a few days of solar activity. By all accounts in story mode there will be times when the power grids switch on and off. It takes very little to wreck a compass, the Black Cuillins on the Isle of Skye for example, when ascending those I had to rely on map and eyeballs as the rock formations contained some kind of magnetised ore.

Compass orients based on Earths magnetic field, and for it to malfunction to degree that would make it completely unusable that field must be severely disrupted. For that solar activity must be on catastrophic level, plus solar flares are anything but constant and simple compass has no parts to be burned out by emp.

Part about power grind coming on and off is also highly unrealistic. If solar activity created emp stong enough to knock out the power grid, keypoints of which are reinforced and shielded, in case of similar events. Chances for it to recover are slim to none. Unless were talking some local stations, where all burned out parts are replaced or jury rigged and they have access to own power generation like dam.

Good example about Black Cullins, i totally forgot about that one. While normally abundant iron deposits of Northern Canada could interfere, to some degree, with compass operation, in case of magnetic field disruption, like in game, they would actually amplify weakened field.

It actually takes a lot to make compass unusable, since its a basic tool that relies on one of Earth main features to operate. Latest known event that caused compass to be unusable was Carrington event over 150 years ago. But we wont know for sure till story mode is released, since then we also get northern lights. And by their intensity we can tell how bad things are, since during Carrington Event auroras were so bright that people actually thought it was day in the middle of the night.

Anything less that that will make compass needle wander, but it will give a rough direction regardless.

[illanthropist]

I'm just basing that on the premise that what's going on is more serious than a few days of solar activity. By all accounts in story mode there will be times when the power grids switch on and off. It takes very little to wreck a compass, the Black Cuillins on the Isle of Skye for example, when ascending those I had to rely on map and eyeballs as the rock formations contained some kind of magnetised ore.

It actually takes a lot to make compass unusable, since its a basic tool that relies on one of Earth main features to operate.

Anything less that that will make compass needle wander, but it will give a rough direction regardless.

Should have explained myself better, over exaggerated by saying wreck a compass. That said though I've seen a few that have lost polarisation over the years.

Here's why I figured compasses will be out of the question in game:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=3176&p=17130#p17130

[Greavette]

I think everything has been said about this, but if you want authenticity, drawn the map yourself on a piece of paper....exactly like you would have to do if you were in the game....now THATS authentic!

[illanthropist]

I think everything has been said about this

sorry boss :!:

[griffonwing]

I think finding a map in each location could be very handy. Even if it was a crude drawing by a local to a fishing place, with a couple landmarks. This would at least give you a sense of direction.

Have them as rare as prepper caches. A map can be found in a sunvisor (as we know, nothing hides there anyway), or a desk drawer. Even if there is only 1 map on the map, you'd still have hundreds of places to search before you found it.

On the other hand, as I first mentioned, perhaps crude hand-drawn maps might also show the way for hidden caches. Maybe a huntsman stashed a bear pelt or a box of ammo and mapped it.

[Dirmagnos]

I think everything has been said about this, but if you want authenticity, drawn the map yourself on a piece of paper....exactly like you would have to do if you were in the game....now THATS authentic!

Whats so authentic about it ?

[toebar]

I think he means that the character could also use a pencil to draw on a piece of paper to create a map (supposing that they couldn't find a pre-made map), just as we can as players as we play. I'd agree that's a fairly authentic representation.

[Daedalus]

I could certainly imagine how some might like that (drawing a map by themselves on paper), however I would really prefer to have an ingame option.

Besides, the fact that we can draw a map ourselves which is fairly accurate means that the game character certainly can as well. Because she obviously is fairly trained in survival techniques, and has a lot more sensory information than we do from behind a screen. Furthermore, it's not like the game is really that realistic. I mean, for a survival *game* it is, but not for real.

Either way, I believe it would be an excellent new game mechanic, especially if it is combined with finding maps (or map fragments) as well so that there are multiple options to achieve the same goal (which is highly consistent with the game design).

[Dirmagnos]

I think he means that the character could also use a pencil to draw on a piece of paper to create a map (supposing that they couldn't find a pre-made map), just as we can as players as we play. I'd agree that's a fairly authentic representation.

Do you consider that option to be more realistic that proper map and compass in pretty much every house in area(s) that are miles away from nearest sizable settlement(in the middle of nowhere) and seem to be fairly popular among hunters and tourists ?

Besides, the fact that we can draw a map ourselves which is fairly accurate means that the game character certainly can as well. Because she obviously is fairly trained in survival techniques, and has a lot more sensory information than we do from behind a screen. Furthermore, it's not like the game is really that realistic. I mean, for a survival *game* it is, but not for real.

"We" can draw accurate maps because game screenshots give coordinates of location where it was taken, allowing for accurate measurements. Something that protagonist probably dont have an access to.

[illanthropist]

I'm no cartographer by any standard but I imagine it's a lot easier in real life to record than in a game. Back in my military training days we had blank range templates printed onto our 24 hr rat pack boxes where we were supposed to map the 180 degree area encompassing our trenches. Without pacing the area out and with little to no experience it's harder than it looks to eyeball the length of a football field and that's with real life depth perception, nigh impossible and more time consuming in a game unless known for sure virtual pacing is accurate.

As much as I'm tempted I have still refrained from using player generated maps and after reading a community spotlight article it seems these were only possible to any degree of accuracy when access to game coordinates were available during play.

Manual map making is something I haven't bothered with, I've tried to rely on memory recall backed up with a little note taking here and there for caches when I couldn't be bothered dragging all resources to a central location.

Still get lost and frustrated going off the beaten path but reiteration makes it easier!

Plus one thing I have to say, from a recent game Firewatch, you had a map, you had a compass, it became a race from A to B to C at least with not knowing you come across the odd berry harvest and/or prepper cache.

I was so excited when I found one of these, though the bubble burst slightly when my pry bar broke and rendered a locker ruined, that did p1$$ me off. I used to work in the fitness industry and not a month went by without having tominimum force a locker open.