Craft-able static defenses

[Tactical Ex]

I think it would be important to keep defenses the way they are when mobile because the revolver is sufficient and anything more may become OP. Static defenses do not seem to exist outside of prefab structures. One thing I think could be nice is like a wooden spike(s) that can be planted on the ground. They would be erect-able only once and require things like logs or reclaimed wood and some cured guts for line/rope. A number of these could be placed in a circle, for example, to keep wolves away from a bed roll. I would think weight and scarcity of supplies would be a factor that has to be considered. After placing them I would hope that there is a risk of breaking the line/rope and dulling the condition of the item would occur. This condition loss would be accelerated by a wolf or bear running into it. 

 

To me it sounds like a nightmare to test and the opportunity for exploitation is high but if executed well might be a nice addition for those that want to combat cabin fever in a hostile area.  

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 1/16/2020 at 6:27 PM, Tactical Ex said:

To me it sounds like a nightmare to test and the opportunity for exploitation is high but if executed well might be a nice addition for those that want to combat cabin fever in a hostile area.

Since you already see the pitfalls and your main goal is to combat cabin fever ..... why not remove cabin fever? What purpose does it really serve anymore, especially since it is rather easily circumvented?

[UpUpAway95]

I agree with Jeff... just turn off cabin feverr in the custom settings.  I really think I would not like turning the atmosphere of the Canadian North into a combat sim.  IRL, we're not "at war" with the wildlife up here.  If anything, a campfire at the mouth of any cave should be sufficient to deter wildlife from entering (as long as it isn't allowed to go out) and closing the door should be sufficient protection whenever their is a door to be closed.  Obviously, Hinterlands has been finding that, in general, fires have been too OP for a game, so they nerfed them by making the animals not fear them.  Somewhere in the settings regarding the animal's fear of fire should be a proper game balance.  Adjusting this would be my preference rather than allowing the player to erect an array of defenses.

Edited January 24, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Tactical Ex]

51 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

[...]your main goal is to combat cabin fever ..... why not remove cabin fever? What purpose does it really serve anymore, especially since it is rather easily circumvented?

 

45 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I agree with Jeff... just turn off cabin feverr in the custom settings. 

I think my intentions might be misunderstood. I don't want to remove cabin fever, my idea was to have more interesting ways to interact with that feature. I do have some custom games which don't have cabin fever turned on but I do value that feature. I did stress in the OP that what I proposed would have to be balanced so we wouldn't want to make it too convenient or easy that circumventing cabin fever is trivial. Some methods to balance that were also mentioned. 

46 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

If anything, a campfire at the mouth of any cave should be sufficient to deter wildlife from entering (as long as it isn't allowed to go out) and closing the door should be sufficient protection whenever their is a door to be closed.  

I agree, none of that is untrue but there is a common theme with what you noted, it requires the player to go to a cave or existing structure. I've found some incredible alcoves and passages that I'd love to turn into a "base" but the danger is just too great imo because it is just too out in the open. An erect-able defense (wall, spikes, etc) would mitigate that danger and add a little bit more ownership to my experience. I mean, there is enough scrap wood lying around the Dam to build another Dam, I don't want my only options to be burn it or make a snare 😁

1 hour ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I really think I would not like turning the atmosphere of the Canadian North into a combat sim.  IRL, we're not "at war" with the wildlife up here.   

[...]

Somewhere in the settings regarding the animal's fear of fire should be a proper game balance.  Adjusting this would be my preference rather than allowing the player to erect an array of defenses.

This is a valuable thing to consider. There are all kinds of wild custom configurations player can make. Some people might like having incredibly hostile wildlife and have to battle it out. That is not my cup of tea but to each their own. I think if such a feature that I am proposing were introduced, I'd definitely want a custom setting where it could be tuned/turned off. 

1 hour ago, jeffpeng said:

Since you already see the pitfalls [...]

Yeah, I don't want the idea to come off as too "pie-in-the-sky".  There are some challenges to overcome for sure (imo, mostly about exploiting pathing behavior) but it's not impossible. Some times the really fun stuff is hard to nail down 🙂

[Guest jeffpeng]

1 hour ago, Tactical Ex said:

I've found some incredible alcoves and passages that I'd love to turn into a "base" but the danger is just too great imo because it is just too out in the open.

Well basebuilding is precisely what the devs do not want - Raphael van Lierop mentioned that more than once. Please do indulge me explaining the way I see it.  

I mean I see where you are coming from and I understand your thought process here. There are some nice spots in the world I personally wish I could build a reinforced fireplace (or something) that protects the fire from being blown out by the wind. But even that, the more you think about it, creates more problems than it solves. I mean I'm a sucker for simple solutions - simple as in low complexity, not simple as in easy. Maybe that's an occupational hazard (I'm a software developer myself, even if in a totally different field), but it keeps the possible fallout of unpredictable side effects manageable.

Now errecting structures in the world - no matter how expensive - is an exploitation bugfestival not just waiting to happen, but with set date, tickets and Iron Maiden on the center stage. If you could errect those structures anywhere players would start walling in spawn points of wolves and bear, for example, or maybe "just" wall off bears from half the map entirely. Not even mentioning the already quite complex and challenged pathfinding algorithm would have a field day with this. The only way to prevent this kind of tomfoolery would be to limit the places where you could erect such structures to predefined locations thorughout the world. That could - in fact - be a somewhat interesting gameplay mechanic (having to make a designated base useable first), but it would not satisfy what you are trying to achieve with this proposal.

So, since, at least in my admittedly limited imagination, there is no way to implement the solution for the problem you stated (Cabin Fever), I proposed removing the problem instead - as I strongly belief Cabin Fever is a solution for a problem that is no longer existing and as such an outdated concept. However your real "problem" is that you want to make much more spots in the world safe as in safe from predators and possibly wind and therefore suitable as a shelter for at least a limited time. And I think that there no solution to that the devs (nor I) would approve of.

The Long Dark goes great lengths to present a limited and balanced sandbox experience with boundaries (mostly) cleverly disguised behind intuitive limitations. The moment you start placing structures in the world that do interact with anything but yourself this entire concept goes out of the window. The moment the player has control - albeit limited - over the game world the developer doesn't have it anymore. That's fine for a lot of games, like Minecraft, the Forest, Green Hell and all sorts of titles ... but it would undermine one of the core philosophies behind The Long Dark.

Well, as I am guilty (again) of throwing yet another Wall Of Text at the community ... I guess: Thanks for reading. 🤣

[Tactical Ex]

53 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

Well basebuilding is precisely what the devs do not want - Raphael van Lierop mentioned that more than once.

Ah, I have been playing the game for well over a year in a bit of a silo and only within the last few months had an interest in engaging with the community so I have much to catch up on with things like that. Had I read what you referenced then I may not have even proposed the idea. 

53 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

But even that, the more you think about it, creates more problems than it solves.

53 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

Now errecting structures in the world - no matter how expensive - is an exploitation bugfestival not just waiting to happen, but with set date, tickets and Iron Maiden on the center stage. If you could errect those structures anywhere players would start walling in spawn points of wolves and bear, for example, or maybe "just" wall off bears from half the map entirely. Not even mentioning the already quite complex and challenged pathfinding algorithm would have a field day with this. The only way to prevent this kind of tomfoolery would be to limit the places where you could erect such structures to predefined locations thorughout the world. That could - in fact - be a somewhat interesting gameplay mechanic (having to make a designated base useable first), but it would not satisfy what you are trying to achieve with this proposal.

I kind of agree. Currently, though, I'm more intrigued than averse to the idea knowing full well its a box of worms. All you have to do is look at the zombie pathing issues and exploits the devs of 7 Days to Die had to deal with just to get it in an "almost" stable state to know it's a big thing to tackle. Even still, the idea is tempting to ponder. 

53 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

I mean I'm a sucker for simple solutions - simple as in low complexity, not simple as in easy. Maybe that's an occupational hazard (I'm a software developer myself, even if in a totally different field), but it keeps the possible fallout of unpredictable side effects manageable.

Normally, I am with you. I'm a Sr SDET at an company that builds software tools to manipulate images, some of which goes into some mission critical devices (CT, MRI, X-ray, etc) so I am normally the one advocating to the dev team to test more and take less risks. Here, I get to let my creative side take over for a while. I'm trying not to let my SDET brain take over too much.😁

53 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

The Long Dark goes great lengths to present a limited and balanced sandbox experience with boundaries (mostly) cleverly disguised behind intuitive limitations. The moment you start placing structures in the world that do interact with anything but yourself this entire concept goes out of the window. The moment the player has control - albeit limited - over the game world the developer doesn't have it anymore.

Agreed, I trust Hinterland to make the right move and I'd rather not have them bend to whims of a player base (battle royale?). I would argue that snow shelters are structures so there is a little bit of wiggle room. That still begs the question of what I'll do with all these wooden planks...

53 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

Well, as I am guilty (again) of throwing yet another Wall Of Text at the community ... I guess: Thanks for reading. 🤣

More is better, imo. It means real thought is going into it.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Tactical Ex
grammar

[Guest jeffpeng]

24 minutes ago, Tactical Ex said:

I'm a Sr SDET at an company that builds software tools to manipulate images

Ah. So another member of the IT faction of TLD.  Guess my job description is "Senior Platform Architect Dude" or something like that. Proprietary application server/framework for Enterprise Stuff.🙄

33 minutes ago, Tactical Ex said:

I would argue that snow shelters are structures so there is a little bit of wiggle room.

They are structures that however do not interact with wildlife. You cant go and wall off your base by snowsheltering yourself in.  

34 minutes ago, Tactical Ex said:

That still begs the question of what I'll do with all these wooden planks...

I actually have a proposal draft in the drawer to build makeshift furniture with these, which is limited to "open" caves. Shelfes and tables, nothing fance, basically to make cave dwelling a bit more homey. Because, as you say ... there must be something else to do with these than fire em up or eradicate all and every rabbit on the island.

[UpUpAway95]

6 hours ago, Tactical Ex said:

 

I agree, none of that is untrue but there is a common theme with what you noted, it requires the player to go to a cave or existing structure. I've found some incredible alcoves and passages that I'd love to turn into a "base" but the danger is just too great imo because it is just too out in the open. An erect-able defense (wall, spikes, etc) would mitigate that danger and add a little bit more ownership to my experience. I mean, there is enough scrap wood lying around the Dam to build another Dam, I don't want my only options to be burn it or make a snare 😁

This is a valuable thing to consider. There are all kinds of wild custom configurations player can make. Some people might like having incredibly hostile wildlife and have to battle it out. That is not my cup of tea but to each their own. I think if such a feature that I am proposing were introduced, I'd definitely want a custom setting where it could be tuned/turned off. 

Yeah, I don't want the idea to come off as too "pie-in-the-sky".  There are some challenges to overcome for sure (imo, mostly about exploiting pathing behavior) but it's not impossible. Some times the really fun stuff is hard to nail down 🙂

Sorry, no sale.  It's not like getting to a cave is all that tough anywhere in this game.  Heck, they've even provided more of the ready-made beds in them with this last update.  If you're caught out in the open, then there's the emergency snow shelter available.  Find a hollowed out tree, put your fire in that and then plunk the snow shelter down in front of the open side, so your fire is actually very well sheltered from the wind in any direction and you're sheltered by the snow shelter.

Edited January 24, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Guest jeffpeng]

2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Find a hollowed out tree, put your fire in that and then plunk the snow shelter down in front of the open side, so your fire is actually very well sheltered from the wind in any direction and you're sheltered by the snow shelter.

Times I died doing this: 3  

[UpUpAway95]

3 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

Times I died doing this: 3  

How.?  Did the fire blow out or were you attacked?  My fire has made it through entire nights frequently using this technique... although I do still sleep in shorter intervals to check on it regularly and will move if it just isn't working out.  I also tend to note prevailing winds in the various maps and pick trees that are oriented with their "backs" to those prevailing winds.  Some are also more sheltered by adjacent trees or rocks than others. Yes, the winds do shift, but they seem to more frequently come from particular directions... or maybe that's just on lower difficulties.

Edited January 25, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Guest jeffpeng]

6 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

How.?  Did the fire blow out or were you attacked?  My fire has made it through entire nights frequently using this technique... although I do still sleep in shorter intervals to check on it regularly and will move if it just isn't working out.  I also tend to note prevailing winds in the various maps and pick trees that are oriented with their "backs" to those prevailing winds.  Some are also more sheltered by adjacent trees or rocks than others. Yes, the winds do shift, but they seem to more frequently come from particular directions... or maybe that's just on lower difficulties.

One instance was one of my first attempts Snowballing TWM, where I placed the Snowshelter right in front of the hollowed out tree below the ultimate climb to the Summit. Fire died due to winds. I died due to hypothermia.

Numbers two and three were snowballing Forlorn Muskeg in an alternative location (not Spence's, not Marsh Ridge) in the relative middle of the ice field. The fire held seemed safe for several days in a row, but both times (slightly different Snow Shelter positions) one night the fire suddenly just died and I with it.

So I guess ..... they are good places but not really totally "safe". Short intervals seem to be a wise choice, but that makes recovery very hard.

I personally had more luck with what I call "cavelets". Small cavities in larger rocks, walls or mountainsides. The one not too far from Poacher's Camp in FM, for example, got me through 30 days and never let me down. I also held out in one of these in HRV for more than a week after having a run in with a bear. If you actually look for them you will be amazed how many of them there are (but you certainly know that 😉)

[UpUpAway95]

3 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

One instance was one of my first attempts Snowballing TWM, where I placed the Snowshelter right in front of the hollowed out tree below the ultimate climb to the Summit. Fire died due to winds. I died due to hypothermia.

Numbers two and three were snowballing Forlorn Muskeg in an alternative location (not Spence's, not Marsh Ridge) in the relative middle of the ice field. The fire held seemed safe for several days in a row, but both times (slightly different Snow Shelter positions) one night the fire suddenly just died and I with it.

So I guess ..... they are good places but not really totally "safe". Short intervals seem to be a wise choice, but that makes recovery very hard.

I personally had more luck with what I call "cavelets". Small cavities in larger rocks, walls or mountainsides. The one not too far from Poacher's Camp in FM, for example, got me through 30 days and never let me down. I also held out in one of these in HRV for more than a week after having a run in with a bear. If you actually look for them you will be amazed how many of them there are (but you certainly know that 😉)

Agreed, cavelets are great.  Other good locations include the hay sheds (after crouching to get under the "loft" section) and the houses that are split in half (which even have a stove, like in the Milton Basin or Deadfall area in Mystery Lake.).  It's often possible to set two fires that are sheltered from the wind at different angles and have one survive even if the winds shift to blow out the other one.  Of course, lighting multiple fires is in an of itself hard because of the amount of wood it requires.

Edited January 25, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Guest jeffpeng]

2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Agreed, cavelets are great.  Other good locations include the hay sheds (after crouching to get under the "loft" section) and the houses that are split in half (which even have a stove, like in the Milton Basin or Deadfall area in Mystery Lake.).  It's often possible to set two fires that are sheltered from the wind at different angles and have one survive even if the winds shift to blow out the other one.  Of course, lighting multiple fires is in an of itself hard because of the amount of wood it requires.

Well if they have a stove and there is no immediate wolf patrol around .... that's actually good enough 🙂 You still get the fire bonus, and the fire is 100% safe. They are just pretty rare, and the Derelict Cabins in PV, for example, even have a patrolling bear.

[UpUpAway95]

6 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

Well if they have a stove and there is no immediate wolf patrol around .... that's actually good enough 🙂 You still get the fire bonus, and the fire is 100% safe. They are just pretty rare, and the Derelict Cabins in PV, for example, even have a patrolling bear.

I did not mean to set two fires inside the split in half houses with the stove.  I probably should have started a new paragraph there to be clearer.

Yes, patrolling bear = a great source of meat for your extended outdoor camping spree.  Basically, I try to stockpile wood in those places whenever I am going by them.  Every few sticks adds up over time.

[SCORBURA]

On 1/25/2020 at 12:13 AM, jeffpeng said:

Times I died doing this: 3  

ME TOO and on top of this the wolf and the bear walked in the fire like they  had fireboots on

Edited January 30, 2020 by SCORBURA