manolitode

2 hours ago, Michael1986 said:

in my opinion at least the biggest problem with Long Dark's Survival Mode is a lack of point

There are plenty of enjoyable "points"  in TLD if you like survival games. Level up fishing, find the tools you need, cure your first gut, kill your first moose, craft and find unique items, loot the plane on TWM summit, craft a bow, fill your endgame base with all the stuff you could possibly need, learn how to safely go head to head with wolves. Not everyone enjoys tasks like these but if you do there are hundreds of hours worth of gaming within a single playthrough. 

Great update! I usually start my morning with half an hour of TLD survival so it's really neat to hear your thoughts about the future. And the good news about episode 4. You can tell from the survey that you have paid close attention to the voices of this forum. Paying for additional content make a lot of sense to me.

Them folks up there in Canada are simply way too cool for jumping.

More long-term objectives would be much appreciated. While we do get a longer game with every new map that is added, this only happens once a year or so. And it's a double-edged sword. On the one hand every new region means more possible time spent per playthrough. On the other hand more items equals more monotonous dragging stuff back to our base, at least for us obsessive hoarders

So what type of end-game content would you like to see? 

Lots of games go for the design-your-home or design-your-village idea, which has been discussed plenty of times before on this forum. Thinking of AAA games with such expansions that I've played, the concept was usually more intriguing than the actual implementations in the end.

I would very much like to see the crafting ladder expanded. Meaning bearskin coat and moose-hide satchel is not the end. Instead you could use plenty of hides to craft larger tools. For instance, combining two bear hides and a couple of cured guts that you can twine around trees at your base to deter wolves from the area. Or you could combine 4 moose hides and 15 guts to craft an insulating floor for your fishing cabin, gaining a little warmth. 

A more simple yet palpable addition to endgame would be a more significant temperature drop starting from around day 200. Meaning you have to take measures to start preparing for the great cold before that. Preferably we would not be able to stay warm in certain caves and buildings anymore. 

15 hours ago, Stinky socks said:

I guess Hinterland could somehow mod 'pregnancy risk' to work like parasite risk where depending on female's period timing, she would get this warning if getting rest with male NPC?. But then if you wanted to prevent it, they'd have to add some sort of contraceptive. Some plants maybe?

 

I believe the cured gut could be modified.

When the aurora serve as a flamboyant backdrop to your nightly dreams.

40 minutes ago, SpitztheGreat said:

The game has been in development for going on four years, with probably another two years still in front of it. That's close to six years for five episodes. Is this really ideal to you? 

No, I don't see how it would be ideal and I don't make the case that it is.

40 minutes ago, SpitztheGreat said:

That may not matter to you, but I'm sure HL wouldn't have minded more players buying their game. And if Wintermute had more momentum, word of mouth about Wintermute may have carried it to even greater sales.

The way I understood the developers' posts in another topic this week it is survival that draws most new players. Maybe because Wintermute release has been slow enough to discourage new players, but it could also be the other way around, that Wintermute development has been assigned less resources since it doesn't draw enough new players. It sounds reasonable that momentum would have had some effect on sales, I won't debate that. I just don't think that 15 months without a new release kills most narratives as you suggested earlier.

40 minutes ago, SpitztheGreat said:

If you're honestly ok with all of your entertainment needing four to six years to tell their 15 hour story, then we're so radically far apart that I don't think we'll ever agree on much. To me, very few things are worth waiting years for and Wintermute does not rise to that standard.

15 hours for 5 episodes? I spent at least 15 on the first 2 episodes. Anyway, yeah I'm okay with waiting out of habit. As for agreeing or not agreeing, I don't see why we couldn't agree on other issues just because we have different attitudes toward entertainment release intervals.

On 3/4/2021 at 9:02 AM, SpitztheGreat said:

When you have something like a episodic narrative, it's very helpful to keep the momentum going with the audience. When episodes end on cliff hangers, people are engaged, they want to know what comes next, they're talking about the game/story/whatever to their friends, excitement builds, buzz around the product increases, this is the sense of momentum that I'm talking about. This keeps the audience engaged in the long off-period when there's no new content. But that can only last so long, and the length of time it lasts varies case by case. The longer between releases, the more momentum that is lost.

I think you're 100 % right that the time elapsed between releases can be critical, that the waiting time in itself isn't desirable and that it could as a consequence result in a smaller playerbase. Though I disagree with your previous notion that the audience has disconnected with Wintermute or that it "won't survive 15 months of radio silence". The occasional waves of discontent online about the waiting time is a proof to the opposite, a lot of players still care for the story and can't wait to see it unfold. And even though it's not very helpful to compare a videogame to a Netflix series (brace for a long parenthesis: though the time of entertainment in a 6-10 episode series is about the same as a TLD episode but obviously that depends on your playstyle), or a videogame to a videogame for that matter, a lot of other stories have survived (and thrived) just as long or way longer waiting times. That's just a fact.

22 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

IMO it depends on waiting time between which parts of the story. [...] So, it is ok to wait a year or 2 between books or seasons of TV show. Wait a year between episodes or chapters, and you lose attachment to the characters, you forget details, and the story becomes mediocre until is finished. So main heroes instead of becoming your friends turn into rare acquaintances, whom you meet once a year.

Recurring episodes with an even interval would be preferable for sure. Speaking of "episodes", I don't want to make this about semantics but I'm curious if the fact that the Wintermute chapters are called "episodes" may have contributed to the playerbase expecting more frequent releases. The word "episode" signals a certain frequency and extent, yet there are full seasons of other games out there that is completed within about the same time as a TLD episode. The John Wick movies have been released every 2-3 years and they're called "chapters". The concept of episodes, seasons, chapters etc are flexible and don't adhere to a given timeframe, it totally depends on the context. I know plenty won't agree but I find it helpful to adjust my expectations to the context, which in The Long Dark world based on previous releases means expecting a couple of years between episodes.

11 hours ago, SpitztheGreat said:

That struck me hard because it made me realize something; I don't care. Whatever momentum this game had is completely lost. In those 15+ months, I've moved on. I'm either playing Survival mode, or I'm dabbling in other projects. Will and Astrid's story simply isn't compelling enough to survive 15+ months of near radio silence. It's not a bad story, there's a lot of care put into it, but very few narratives could survive such a long hiatus. 

I agree with your compliments to HL but I don't identify with your line of thought when it comes to story. Could you explain further why you think waiting time kills a good story? It seems clear to me that many manage to reignite their love for a tale after ever so long waiting times. I didn't play God of War since 2018, I still feel for the characters and don't mind waiting for the next game. The same goes for Netflix series, you wait 1-2 years for the next narrative from the Crown, Ozark, or whatever you like. Whether it be video games, books, TV-series or movies, we are used to waiting.   

11 hours ago, SpitztheGreat said:

If they were to just straight up cancel Wintermute at this point, I wouldn't be surprised. At minimum, they've got to be muttering to themselves "Never again" regarding a game with episodic narrative structure.

It seems Raph just confirmed ep 4 and 5 are certainly up for relase, just in case you missed it, here's the link: The Case for Paid Expansions - General Discussion - Hinterland Forums 

I had the same experience as the OP when I first began my interloper adventures. I too knew all the maps inside and out and had survived for 200+ days on stalker several times. Still, interloper killed me after 1 day. On the next attempt, 3 days... But as I kept banging my head on the blizzard walls of loopendooper 3 days became 5, and 5 became 8, and 20 and 30 and 100 and 300 etc. I still needed a couple of months to master interloper, meaning I could survive long enough to craft the tools and full set of animal clothing on a regular basis. I didn't need looting tables or google clothing locations, so you don't either. You'll learn some of it by playing over and over anyway and the things you learn through your own experience will stick with you for longer. 

Someone mentioned luck as a factor in mastering interloper. That is only true til you know your maps, then it's (pretty much) all experience. Predator patrols follow fixed patterns, natural food locations are a little flexible but mostly fixed. And even though the daily blizzard may take you by surprise occassionally you can almost always predict it early enough to return to a shelter. 

Those who say Interloper is too easy may think so, a few may say it to brag a little. I think it's reasonably difficult as it is, any harder and it would discourage too many new players. I still find Interloper challenging when exploring a new region, like Ash Canyon recently. Because I don't know where the indoor locations are located. Sure, you can counter the risk by carrying snowshelter materials and act as a walking coalmine. But I prefer to travel light and experience the thrill of exposed exploring. 

A burning flare with some burning time left will not be extinguished when you walk through a waterfall. 

Also, a fire you light with a torch can use the very same torch as starting fuel.

Even if you climb on a fallen tree, you have reasons to be wary. If you're at too low a height the predator will sometimes be able to pull you down and maul you. Also, there seem to be non-safe fallen trees, at least the fallen tree close to Deer clearing in TWM where a wolf followed me up the tree trunk. 

Also, when you find yourself cornered on a rock, you'll be better off once you explore which seemingly undescendable cliffs actually constitute safe ledges. 

Here's an idea. My storages and your storages overflows with feathers. I can only recall one occasion where I was short on feathers. Why not make feather access - and thereby arrow availability - a little more challenging? To keep us on our toes even after that first trip to the forge.

I propose that 1) the amount of feathers found by corpses is decreased in windy conditions and blizzards, though not necessarily zeroed. 2) there is a feather respawn time by corpses after blizzards, meaning there is an overall smaller chance of finding feathers on any corpse/carcass encounter. 3) feathers respawn one by one. 4) single feathers can be found anywhere but very sparesly, meaning you'll be rewarded for being observant on spots where you wouldn't normally expect to find anything. 5) that the combinations of point 1-4 are implemented with an equation that makes feathers significantly less available than currently.

The fact that some feathers in the real world can freeze in the snow and stay there and some can get carried away is not the main point here. The purpose of this implementation would be increased challenge, the realism of wind-carried feathers would be a bonus.  

Don't explore new areas until you're decently clothed. But if you have to, bring coal to stay warm. 

Don't forget to crouch when you exit a building in a wolf-infested/bear area. 

Don't expect to survive.

On 2/8/2021 at 10:13 PM, odizzido said:

Removable backpacks could be somewhat similar to what the OP is saying here. Have three different ones you can put on depending on what you want to do. It would also make it so people could drop their backpacks and go climb something or go explore with the downside being you no longer have your gear.

I agree word for word. Different backpacks is how you'd want to solve gear loadouts. Sure we can use lockboxes and switch items manually but very few bases have lockboxes (though stone boxes solve this to some degree), there has to be a less cumbersome solution. As for removable backpacks, it's an idea that seem 100 % intuitive to me. In fact I spent my first frustrating hours playing TLD not believing that there wasn't a drop backpack-button. There is the difficulty argument against it, that there's too much of an upside being able to explore more freely. Well, the downside of not carrying gear is huge, no tinder, no sticks, no ammo etc. And I would like to do more scouting without having to rearrange the backpack and drop all stuff in the snow. Other counterarguments is that removable backpacks mean it would be easier to outrun a charging wolf. That could be prevented by a drop backpack animation that lasts seconds, as has been suggested by other before. 

On 2/11/2021 at 3:05 PM, Mroz4k said:

Good points. Many I would agree with. My main issue would be two points - a "single" dog, and that is it. If you tame a dog, and them lose it, some people would like to try again. 

While it's pretty harsh to have to start a whole new playthrough in order to find a new dog, the life of the dog would mirror the life of the survivor. You only get one shot and need plenty of miserable failures and efforts to master it. It's a concept that appeals to me but I realize it doesn't suit everyone. Perhaps something like a 100+ day interval before the next encounter would work, as long as the dog is very rare (I'm thinking much rarer than a moose encounter) and vulnerable.

On 2/11/2021 at 3:05 PM, Mroz4k said:

What if the dog was already hurt when you approach it? It would be hostile-ish, growling, but keeping some distance. You could initiate the friendship by placing a "decoy" of a meat down, then backing off, let the dog approach it. then, slowly, with slow, steady movements, you would approach the dog. Gradually getting closer and closer, eventually letting the dog approach you, where you would have the ability to treat its wound and bandage it. Then pet the dog - which would start an even longer and tedious process of earning its trust. Then eventually training the dog to a point where it would be your companion. 

This scenario about taking care of the already wounded dog seems like a pleasing way for the player to feel instant affection for his companion. Less dark than what I proposed, I think I'd enjoy playing both scenarios for different reasons. 

On 2/11/2021 at 3:05 PM, Mroz4k said:

I like the idea of building your own "pack" - like you pointed out before, one dog versus one wolf would not be feasible for the dog. If there were more, they could act as a deterrent for you, but you would need to feed more "hungry mouths". So there is a trade-off. And given how overstacked on meat people are in the later part of the game, this could be a decent balancing factor to encourage people to hunt more.

Caring for a pack of dogs opens up some interesting options for travelling and combat as you suggest. I know you said it's a stretch but if the dog pack could handle wolf fights for you there wouldn't be much challenge left for stalker and interloper players. Also, the option of being able to go fast with a pack of dogs pulling a sledge, what does that mean for the overall difficulty. Can you outrun a charging wolf (not just a stalking one)? A charging bear? I like the idea of just the player and the one dog being dependent on their strong bond for survival. It might still feel like a solitary The Long Dark experience, with more dogs I'm not so sure. But it would be a nice project to take care of a whole pack of dogs and bring them to Bleak Inlet. Pack vs pack  

Having a dog companion seem to work really well in some other games but I'm not sure how well it would do in The Long Dark. 

Adding a dog to lategame would make it more interesting for sure. Lets say you can find a dog after 100+ days. You find him by a deer carcass, growling at you. He is quite aggressive after being hunted by berserk wolves for some time. So he attacks you and if your condition is okay you manage to fend him off. If you choose the knife, axe or hammer you kill the poor dog instantly and there's no chance of finding another. If you choose the prybar or fight him barehanded he limps off wounded. At that moment, you can choose to either kill him... or bandage him, feed him and give him water. And that's how his loyalty towards you start to grow and is maintained. The benefit of tracking sounds like a decent idea. While I'm not so sure we need hare hunting to be easier it might make life a little more comfortable. Tracking other animals as well seem like an appropriate idea in order to locate an unfriendly animal or a deer a few seconds earlier than usual. In that case, I would support this if food and water costs for having a dog was high. And if there was a deep level of options, and not just repetitive stuff like feed/hunt/pet. The dog should be quite vulnerable, if you bring him to a bear or wolf fight then the risk of losing it should be high. 

Anywho, it would change a lot of mechanics and I'm not sure what effects that would have on the whole. 

7 hours ago, Cranky said:

Thank you for that correction. Last and only time I was there I died within minutes of entering the region.... I let stupid happen. Tho in my fleeting moments there I didn’t see any twolves, I assumed they were in it due to the name. 

A fair assumption. After all there is a lake in Mystery lake, a coast in Coastal highway, a mountain in Timberwolf mountain, a broken railroad in Broken Railroad etc. No timberwolves in Timberwolf mountain being the exception, though some folks sometimes mistake Pleasant Valley for an unpleasant place. 

17 hours ago, hozz1235 said:

In my longest run, I'm always looking for things to do.  My latest mission was to completely loot FM.  This means all non-respawning harvestables.  Have to say, FM has a LOT!  Far more than any other zone IMO.  Plenty of opportunities to hone my wolf-hunting skills while I was at it.

Agree, FM is nature's great pentry and the many wolf encounters with thin ice increase the challenge. When I try to loot the whole region I usually divide the map in half where the railroad runs and spend 2-3 days per side looting, depending on weather and condition. Even if I try to pick up all cattails I have to miss a couple on each playthrough.

I guess it's all relative but after years I still don't think FM is that easy. You get caught in sudden (very, very sudden) heavy fog so you try and get to the railroad except you're not going in the direction you think you're going. Suddently there's two wolves stalking you so you're kind of trapped and choose a shortcut over thin ice but for some reason the 4 second rule (or is it 5?) doesn't apply on this particular spot. Now you're soaked and an otherwise splendid playthrough is suddenly at risk. 

Canadians like to keep one (and only one) granola bar under their bed.

On 2/1/2021 at 5:58 PM, ManicManiac said:

I think most folks who live a significant length of time in cold areas with a lot of snow and ice, quickly learn to how to walk on ice.
(the secret is to just pick your feet up and set them down - that is, trying not to push off with your feet as you walk)

Indeed, that pretty much nails it.

18 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

Are they really a growing studio? Their only game was officially released 3+ years ago and they continue to work on it. I think TLD is already bought by majority of total potential playerbase for this game. IMO additional sales will appear during discounts and episode releases, but revenue will be much smaller part of total.

Depends on how you define growth, I suppose. They're hiring, it's usually a positive sign. Would be interesting to see how their revenue numbers have fluctuated during the last 5 years but I don't know where to find such numbers for Canadian companies.

18 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

For me HL looks like they reached maturity until they release a new product, and I didn't hear any news about it. Plus I really think that it would be unethical to work on something new until they finish the story mode.

Disappointing for some perhaps, unethical I think is a stretch considering how little many of us paid for the game. A sidetrack on ethics, the motto on HL's page provides a clue to their developing time: "We believe passion for work and balance in life are not only compatible ideas, but necessary ones". If HL live up to that, and people are encouraged to work their 8 hours and go home their families, then that's part of producing an ethical product from my point of view that makes the wait worthwhile. But then again I'm not a part of the industry, perhaps a similar motto decorates the walls inside Ubisoft's lair. 

18 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

Will and Astrid look like a generic drama couple, who lost their child(probably). Man started to drink, woman concentrated on work, they are separated but deep inside care about each other, yadda-yadda.

9 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

I'm not sure how relevant world size with regards to time to develop story mode. It is not like they creating completely different separate regions, etc. Main parts of content already exists in the survival mode.

Fair point, creating episode 3 in already existing PV should be faster than making a new region with blackrock prison, if that's what we can expect from the upcoming episode. 

9 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

HL spent ≈3 years on the first 3 episodes. And I wouldn't say that they were exquisite, considering abundance of fetch quests, strange mechanics of the bear spear (which haven't been introduced in the survival mode after all that time), artificial gameplay time extension through slowing walking speed (basically slow fetch quests), questionable motivation of protagonists, etc.

I've shared my critique on episode 3 in quite a few other topics so I would agree when it comes to slow fetch quests and writing. But for me episode 1-2 (the original ones) were plain stunning which is why I have high hopes for 4-5. They introduced me to the TLD universe with breathtaking landscapes, well-written characters and moving soundtrack. If you didn't like the previous episodes that much, why care for the upcoming ones?

10 hours ago, Dum_Gen said:

So the question appears, whether the devs were too ambitious about their capabilities and overestimated themselves or just have much lower priority for the story mode. As I wrote previously, most of episodic games that I know were finished within approx. 1 year timeframe. Therefore, 5 years after official release seems too generous even for an indie studio.

We can always speculate on their priorities, perhaps HL have concluded that prioritizing episode 4 and 5 won't add enough new players to make it profitable. And perhaps it is a long wait regardless of open world or indie vs AAA. That said, I have great respect for the growing pains and trials of a growing studio and I appreciate that HL aren't prepared to release anything half-hearted.  

While this community holds a few game developers I'm not one of them and don't know what a reasonable developing time for an openworldish TLD-like episode would be for a studio the size of Hinterland. The only episodic game I used to play was made by a larger studio ( number of employees being but one variable that affect production time) and though the episodes were released much more frequently the ingame "space" was very limited.

If it is as suggested above, that episode development time is abnormally long, then perhaps you're right that story mode isn't prioritized. Could also be the other way around, that HL is taking their time to make the last two episodes exquisite. Could also be that we all abide under Murphy's law. Adding new steps in production, working with third parties, developing new features, "anything that can go wrong will go wrong"  While we're eager to play episode 4 we would also benefit from adjusting our expectations to match Hinterland's actual developing time. And meanwhile get distracted by other indulgences. 

On 1/15/2021 at 8:26 PM, Sus-wolf said:

I am playing on Voyager and moving through coastal highway and Desolation point. I left my rifle behind (how isn’t important) and I began wondering the difference between traveling through wolf territory with a rifle vs a revolver. 

If you have a good grasp of how the bears in a region patrol and know where to anticipate them I recommend sticking to the revolver. Stay nimble and become a wolf headshot master. Apart from that, plenty of good points made above.