Wolves

[cekivi]

17 hours ago, Jolan said:

the furry navigational hazards have attacked me when I've been waving a torch.  Also when I've been chucking flares.  Though I have noticed that if I'm wearing their brethern they tend (only tend) to be more respectful.  They are also frequently circling back right away.  Its gotten to the point where I shoot or deliberately provoke a fight if the wolf is where I want to be wandering around for a day or two.  

True. I had a dances with wolves moment while playing recently. Maintain eye contact, back out of their attack circle and continually brandish the torch. After 3-5 brandishings they'll usually lose their cool and run off.

[Jolan]

6 hours ago, cekivi said:

True. I had a dances with wolves moment while playing recently. Maintain eye contact, back out of their attack circle and continually brandish the torch. After 3-5 brandishings they'll usually lose their cool and run off.

It may be a condition or encumberance issue when they attack.  Stuff every where,.  very distressing.  Actually, now that I think of it I tend to start a torch or carry a flare when my condition is lower and I don't have nibbles for them.

[elloco999]

On 6-3-2016 at 3:57 AM, Jolan said:

the furry navigational hazards have attacked me when I've been waving a torch.  Also when I've been chucking flares.  Though I have noticed that if I'm wearing their brethern they tend (only tend) to be more respectful.  They are also frequently circling back right away.  Its gotten to the point where I shoot or deliberately provoke a fight if the wolf is where I want to be wandering around for a day or two.  

Wolves will attack you if you have a torch or flare if you get too close. If you keep a little distance (a few yard) it won't attack you. If you brandish a torch at this distance you have a chance to scare the wolf away. If you throw a flare and it doesn't scare the wolf away, you no longer have the protection of the flare (unless it landed between you and the wolf).

In my experience, torches and flares are excellent at keeping wolves at bay as long as you don't get too close. The flare has the added benefit that it can't be blown out by the wind. This is why I always carry 1 flare specifically for situations where I need to keep a wolf away while it is too windy for a torch.

If a wolf is blocking your path and you can't go around it, you can even move a little closer (a few feet at a time) and wait for the wolf to back up. Repeat until the wolf has backed up enough to move around it. As long as you don't get too close, the wolf will not attack you but will move back after a second or 2.

[elloco999]

15 hours ago, cekivi said:

True. I had a dances with wolves moment while playing recently. Maintain eye contact, back out of their attack circle and continually brandish the torch. After 3-5 brandishings they'll usually lose their cool and run off.

I actually never bother brandishing a torch, unless there is no shelter nearby. I just let the wolf follow me while I walk to the shelter and then go inside. Brandishing a torch lowers it's condition quite a bit. You can only do it so many times with a new torch. I don't want to take the risk that the torch will go out when I brandish it. The wolf would attack before you have the chance to light a new one.

 

9 hours ago, Jolan said:

It may be a condition or encumberance issue when they attack.  Stuff every where,.  very distressing.  Actually, now that I think of it I tend to start a torch or carry a flare when my condition is lower and I don't have nibbles for them.

Encumbrance and your condition both play a role in the wolf's decision to attack you. But even so, as long as you keep your distance a wolf will not attack you while you have a burning torch/ flare.

[stray_cur]

I used to be against the crazy wolves, but have come to realize, as Rapheal says, there are numerous ways to deal with them, it's just a matter of preparation, which is what the game is all about.  And they're numbers and aggression can be justified within the context of the game (they've learned that us humans are actually easy prey in this new world order).

[cekivi]

6 hours ago, elloco999 said:

I actually never bother brandishing a torch, unless there is no shelter nearby. I just let the wolf follow me while I walk to the shelter and then go inside. Brandishing a torch lowers it's condition quite a bit. You can only do it so many times with a new torch. I don't want to take the risk that the torch will go out when I brandish it. The wolf would attack before you have the chance to light a new one.

In my case, I was trying to scare a wolf off a deer carcass to have some lunch

[elloco999]

16 hours ago, cekivi said:

In my case, I was trying to scare a wolf off a deer carcass to have some lunch

Yes, that does require some brandishing

But if there is a building nearby, I simply go inside and wait for 20 min. Once the wolf has stopped eating the carcass it will not go back to it.

Or just push the wolf back by stepping 2-3 feet in it's direction and wait for it to back up and repeat this until you can get to the carcass. Or draw it away and circle back to the carcass. Make a fire or just use torches to keep the wolf away. And hope the wind doesn't blow your fire out... The wolf should give up after some time of not being able to get to you, but I've never tested this. I generally shoot the wolf to get some more meat, or if I want to save my arrows, I shoot next to the wolf and scare it way that way. This will only damage the arrow slightly (5% or something like that, vs 30% for hitting the wolf).

[cekivi]

9 hours ago, elloco999 said:

Yes, that does require some brandishing

But if there is a building nearby, I simply go inside and wait for 20 min. Once the wolf has stopped eating the carcass it will not go back to it.

Or just push the wolf back by stepping 2-3 feet in it's direction and wait for it to back up and repeat this until you can get to the carcass. Or draw it away and circle back to the carcass. Make a fire or just use torches to keep the wolf away. And hope the wind doesn't blow your fire out... The wolf should give up after some time of not being able to get to you, but I've never tested this. I generally shoot the wolf to get some more meat, or if I want to save my arrows, I shoot next to the wolf and scare it way that way. This will only damage the arrow slightly (5% or something like that, vs 30% for hitting the wolf).

I considered doing that but I'm trying to get the Pacifist achievement

[LucidFugue]

9 hours ago, elloco999 said:

Make a fire or just use torches to keep the wolf away. And hope the wind doesn't blow your fire out... The wolf should give up after some time of not being able to get to you, but I've never tested this.

I once fought a wolf away from a deer carcass, then had to quickly build a fire as another wolf was closing in. With the wolf sitting there growling out me I harvested the whole thing, so I think it was a good 2 hours. Quite a patient fellow!

Not sure if time compression affects the behaviour though. I know that can do some weird things to timers.

[KD7BCH]

On 3/6/2016 at 8:57 PM, Jolan said:

the furry navigational hazards have attacked me when I've been waving a torch.  Also when I've been chucking flares.  Though I have noticed that if I'm wearing their brethern they tend (only tend) to be more respectful.  They are also frequently circling back right away.  Its gotten to the point where I shoot or deliberately provoke a fight if the wolf is where I want to be wandering around for a day or two.  

Yep and forcing a confrontation while costing some resources is usually much more favorable than letting them exist to be a potential danger later because the confronted danger is too predictable. 

[KD7BCH]

On 3/7/2016 at 5:54 AM, elloco999 said:

Wolves will attack you if you have a torch or flare if you get too close. If you keep a little distance (a few yard) it won't attack you. If you brandish a torch at this distance you have a chance to scare the wolf away. If you throw a flare and it doesn't scare the wolf away, you no longer have the protection of the flare (unless it landed between you and the wolf).

In my experience, torches and flares are excellent at keeping wolves at bay as long as you don't get too close. The flare has the added benefit that it can't be blown out by the wind. This is why I always carry 1 flare specifically for situations where I need to keep a wolf away while it is too windy for a torch.

If a wolf is blocking your path and you can't go around it, you can even move a little closer (a few feet at a time) and wait for the wolf to back up. Repeat until the wolf has backed up enough to move around it. As long as you don't get too close, the wolf will not attack you but will move back after a second or 2.

Too predictable.

[KD7BCH]

14 hours ago, elloco999 said:

Yes, that does require some brandishing

But if there is a building nearby, I simply go inside and wait for 20 min. Once the wolf has stopped eating the carcass it will not go back to it.

Or just push the wolf back by stepping 2-3 feet in it's direction and wait for it to back up and repeat this until you can get to the carcass. Or draw it away and circle back to the carcass. Make a fire or just use torches to keep the wolf away. And hope the wind doesn't blow your fire out... The wolf should give up after some time of not being able to get to you, but I've never tested this. I generally shoot the wolf to get some more meat, or if I want to save my arrows, I shoot next to the wolf and scare it way that way. This will only damage the arrow slightly (5% or something like that, vs 30% for hitting the wolf).

Too predictable. It is also why Wolves are essentially tools for free meat when you control them like dogs rather than wild animals. A wolf that expended the energy to kill an animal will then use an equal amount of energy to run off a competitor they are the equal to or superior of to be able to consume it. The fault of the AI is that the wolf doesn't return to the kill after human intervention. Not even randomly. So while this is how it is coded, it situates the wolf as a tool for the player to get a kill without expending any energy except to make the deer or rabbit run towards the wolf by walking or running them on a proper vector. This is also a fault of a deer or rabbit AI as they should not ever run in a straight line as animals in nature don't do that. 

The bottom line is it is all 100% predictable. The deer/rabbit AI should at least go in different directions when triggered by the player to run by proximity. The Wolf AI should at least randomly or usually return to a kill it made unless weather or another predator of superior strength enters the situation (bear or stronger wolf) In any event making it random would vastly change the unpredictability of the situation without costing significant amounts of coding time for the AI. 

Down the road additional AI updates could be made which improve the AI but these changes could be made today and tested in the sandbox in preparation for the next release. 

[Jolan]

On 3/7/2016 at 6:54 AM, elloco999 said:

Wolves will attack you if you have a torch or flare if you get too close. If you keep a little distance (a few yard) it won't attack you. If you brandish a torch at this distance you have a chance to scare the wolf away. If you throw a flare and it doesn't scare the wolf away, you no longer have the protection of the flare (unless it landed between you and the wolf).

In my experience, torches and flares are excellent at keeping wolves at bay as long as you don't get too close. The flare has the added benefit that it can't be blown out by the wind. This is why I always carry 1 flare specifically for situations where I need to keep a wolf away while it is too windy for a torch.

If a wolf is blocking your path and you can't go around it, you can even move a little closer (a few feet at a time) and wait for the wolf to back up. Repeat until the wolf has backed up enough to move around it. As long as you don't get too close, the wolf will not attack you but will move back after a second or 2.

cool I'll try that - I usually only chuck a flare when the wolf has started their charge they don't seem to like that.  None of the wolves have ever back up for me.  They don't like getting shot in the behind with arrows though - so I now have a use for those.

 

[Jolan]

2 hours ago, KD7BCH said:

Yep and forcing a confrontation while costing some resources is usually much more favorable than letting them exist to be a potential danger later because the confronted danger is too predictable. 

And sometimes Mama just wants a new winter coat.   

[Jolan]

On 3/7/2016 at 7:02 AM, elloco999 said:

I actually never bother brandishing a torch, unless there is no shelter nearby. I just let the wolf follow me while I walk to the shelter and then go inside. Brandishing a torch lowers it's condition quite a bit. You can only do it so many times with a new torch. I don't want to take the risk that the torch will go out when I brandish it. The wolf would attack before you have the chance to light a new one.

 

how do you get them to not charge you?  I've got the torch lit, we've got eye contact (not like Larry who recently jumped me while I was sneaking out of town), I'm not moving towards the critter and it still charges me.  This is part of the reason why in my current run through I've got a wolf coat stashed in Coastal Township, I'm wearing a wolf coat and I've got enough skins to make another one back at the dam, plus stashes of hide in various transit places.  

[illanthropist]

6 minutes ago, Jolan said:

how do you get them to not charge you?  I've got the torch lit, we've got eye contact (not like Larry who recently jumped me while I was sneaking out of town), I'm not moving towards the critter and it still charges me.

I found myself in a standoff with a torch lit earlier today, brandishing just kept it at bay for a few seconds.  Lunging forward spooked the wolf into fleeing, can't say it's tried and tested but worked on this occasion.

[Jolan]

Just now, illanthropist said:

I found myself in a standoff with a torch lit earlier today, brandishing just kept it at bay for a few seconds.  Lunging forward spooked the wolf into fleeing, can't say it's tried and tested but worked on this occasion.

always worth trying.  and I love some of the fight lines.  Thanks!

[illanthropist]

Sometimes I guess there's just no escaping, after the elation of 4 rabbit traps all full I was ambling back to the trappers hut for din dins and WHAM, literally feet away from the cabin door a wolf charged, blocking my path giving me zero chance to evade it.  It must have circled around the back of the cabin, hidden from sight by the rocks on my approach. 

Felt like I'd jumped into a game of Five Nights at Freddie's, even my dog jumped off his bed to give me a WTF dude look!

[elloco999]

7 hours ago, Jolan said:

how do you get them to not charge you?  I've got the torch lit, we've got eye contact (not like Larry who recently jumped me while I was sneaking out of town), I'm not moving towards the critter and it still charges me.  This is part of the reason why in my current run through I've got a wolf coat stashed in Coastal Township, I'm wearing a wolf coat and I've got enough skins to make another one back at the dam, plus stashes of hide in various transit places.  

It has never happened to me that a wolf charged me while I was carrying a burning torch, unless I came too close to the wolf. Unless this has changed since the last update (haven't played all that much lately) wolves should charge you when you have a burning torch or flare.

[romerabr]

On ‎04‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 5:53 PM, KD7BCH said:

Torch lasts for 45 minutes, while the durability in the wind is a factor, typically you can exploit the terrain or force the wolf encounter in a position where the wind protects the torch. Or drop the torch in a place protected by the wind, and drag the wolf to that location via running at and then away from the wolf. The AI is just not capable of thinking for itself and it just reacts in the pre-programmed fashion. If it reacted differently, varying and more random, it would be both more convincing as well as more challenging without being cheap. Keeping it as real as possible while also varied is part of the solution to good AI. 

Torch lasts about 90 minutes.

[hauteecolerider]

On March 3, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Raphael van Lierop said:

In general, while wildlife (in nature) can be unpredictable, there are definitely a limited number of likely outcomes to any given scenario, which is why you can learn how to respond in an ideal fashion, to animal encounters (the studio happens to be located in a part of Vancouver Island with a fairly high density of bears and cougars, so understanding these "rules" is top of mind for us). Most of the time, animals only behave unpredictably when they are sick (rabid) or there are other environmental stimuli that cause them to behave out of their normal mores/societies -- ex. bears whose cubs are threatened is the classic example, but this could also apply to a wolf who has been cast out of a pack, or adolescent cougars who are learning to hunt and haven't yet "normalized" themselves to humans, etc

I wish to comment on this. As a student (both professionally and out of personal interest) of animal behavior, I think the unpredictability of wildlife behavior comes from our ignorance of what drives these animals to behave the way they do. Wild animals, much as domestic animals, are cunning, intelligent and able to figure things out for themselves. Those that are not capable of doing so simply don't survive long enough to pass their "stupid" genes to the next generation. Careful observation (from a distance) not only of these animals but how they interact with each other and their environment can go a long way towards understanding their behavior and even predicting their responses -- to a point. 

As humans, we have to realize that each species has certain gifts, certain abilities, certain ways of experiencing their world that differs from ours. Their behavior arises out of these senses. Wolves (and dogs) are more scent-oriented than visual, so they will react to scent first, before reacting to visual cues. Cats (including cougars, if you ever bring them on), on the other hand, are more sight and sound oriented, so will behave accordingly. Bears are distinctly smell oriented, more so than wolves. They are also less sensitive to threats than cats (though anyone who has ever survived a bear attack might disagree . . .).

I'm new to this game - only started playing this Sunday (3/06) but already I've put in 28 hours into something that was meant to be a quick break from modding TESIV on my desktop. Riiiight. Anyway, so far, I'm still on Pilgrim mode, and am at a point now where I'm starting to feel comfortable with the survival mechanics. This has allowed me to observe the wildlife from a distance, and I have to say that so far, things are pretty much what I'd expect based on my own knowledge of animal behavior. I'm actually impressed that the wildlife AI actually takes environmental conditions (i.e. wind direction) into consideration where wildlife responses to the PC's approach is concerned. Wolves and bear actually do react sooner or later depending on whether I'm upwind or down. Since I've started wearing the deerskin boots and pants that I've crafted, I've been nearly run down by running deer a few times. Considering the sharpness of their hooves, I find myself wondering if I'm more likely to be killed by a random deer encounter than by wolf or bear. Or cold or starvation. Or injury or disease. 

I do think the devs are already doing an admirable job with the AI. Consider that there is a trade-off between each element in a game, not just in time and number of people working on it, but also keeping the AI demands on the player's technology reasonable. If the devs had the unlimited time and brainpower to put every recommendation in, we'd have a game that is unplayable on all but an IBM Blue . . . 

[KD7BCH]

15 hours ago, Jolan said:

And sometimes Mama just wants a new winter coat.   

LOLOL ROTFL That is a good 1  

[Raphael van Lierop]

6 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

I wish to comment on this. As a student (both professionally and out of personal interest) of animal behavior, I think the unpredictability of wildlife behavior comes from our ignorance of what drives these animals to behave the way they do. Wild animals, much as domestic animals, are cunning, intelligent and able to figure things out for themselves. Those that are not capable of doing so simply don't survive long enough to pass their "stupid" genes to the next generation. Careful observation (from a distance) not only of these animals but how they interact with each other and their environment can go a long way towards understanding their behavior and even predicting their responses -- to a point. 

As humans, we have to realize that each species has certain gifts, certain abilities, certain ways of experiencing their world that differs from ours. Their behavior arises out of these senses. Wolves (and dogs) are more scent-oriented than visual, so they will react to scent first, before reacting to visual cues. Cats (including cougars, if you ever bring them on), on the other hand, are more sight and sound oriented, so will behave accordingly. Bears are distinctly smell oriented, more so than wolves. They are also less sensitive to threats than cats (though anyone who has ever survived a bear attack might disagree . . .).

I'm new to this game - only started playing this Sunday (3/06) but already I've put in 28 hours into something that was meant to be a quick break from modding TESIV on my desktop. Riiiight. Anyway, so far, I'm still on Pilgrim mode, and am at a point now where I'm starting to feel comfortable with the survival mechanics. This has allowed me to observe the wildlife from a distance, and I have to say that so far, things are pretty much what I'd expect based on my own knowledge of animal behavior. I'm actually impressed that the wildlife AI actually takes environmental conditions (i.e. wind direction) into consideration where wildlife responses to the PC's approach is concerned. Wolves and bear actually do react sooner or later depending on whether I'm upwind or down. Since I've started wearing the deerskin boots and pants that I've crafted, I've been nearly run down by running deer a few times. Considering the sharpness of their hooves, I find myself wondering if I'm more likely to be killed by a random deer encounter than by wolf or bear. Or cold or starvation. Or injury or disease. 

I do think the devs are already doing an admirable job with the AI. Consider that there is a trade-off between each element in a game, not just in time and number of people working on it, but also keeping the AI demands on the player's technology reasonable. If the devs had the unlimited time and brainpower to put every recommendation in, we'd have a game that is unplayable on all but an IBM Blue . . . 

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback. It's possible that Pilgrim AI behaviours are more consistent with your expectations. Wolves do become more aggressive in Voyageur and Stalker Experience Modes. Wildlife AI is definitely something we'd like to continue improving -- the balance is setting up clear behavioural "rules" that the player can learn over time, without making the AI too robotic and unpredictable. We'd like to see AI interacting with each other more as well, both within and across species. While "realism" isn't really our goal, we'd definitely prefer to avoid gamey behaviour and it's good to hear we're not completely missing the mark so far.

[elloco999]

16 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

Since I've started wearing the deerskin boots and pants that I've crafted, I've been nearly run down by running deer a few times. Considering the sharpness of their hooves, I find myself wondering if I'm more likely to be killed by a random deer encounter than by wolf or bear. Or cold or starvation. Or injury or disease.

You don't have to worry about the deer. They can't hurt you (on any difficulty). They just run straight through you.

[Jolan]

On 3/9/2016 at 6:01 AM, elloco999 said:

It has never happened to me that a wolf charged me while I was carrying a burning torch, unless I came too close to the wolf. Unless this has changed since the last update (haven't played all that much lately) wolves should charge you when you have a burning torch or flare.

 generally if I'm having an encounter with a wolf its because my first notice of the beastie is it growling at me.  So I'm probably too close.