Wolves

[shadragon]

Began a new game last night at the intermediate level. Got attacked by a wolf (I presume the same one) twice within the first hour of the game starting.

An ability to have defenses against such debilitating attacks would be very welcome. A garbage can lid as a shield to deflect charges, long mop handle sharpened to a point to use as a pike / spear, a phone book duct taped around my forearm were the first things that occurred to me. Shoving that phone book into it's mouth would give me little damage, but let me attack him freely with my off-hand.

The rifle is fine for long distance (I didn't have the rifle when I was attacked), but up close we need more defensive tools where a torch is impractical to wield.

If I were in a wolf attack zone, you can bet your life I'd be on the look for defenses or something to mitigate their attacks.

Does anyone else have any ideas what could be done in-game?

[KD7BCH]

The developers thus far along with the community have rejected the idea you shouldn't be vulnerable on day one, or able to seriously defend yourself. Your only defense options are unrealistic as they are is making a fire, taking some torches and walking around with lit torch, able to drive off wolves that way. Or when a wolf comes for you running away from it. That is it.

The idea of engaging is for when you have knife and are low loaded, and not fatigued and near full health. Otherwise you will probably die. 

That is is plain and simple. I've advocated for a spear. Nobody wants to hear it or discuss it anymore. Developers are working story mode and haven't updated sandbox in almost 3 months.

[KD7BCH]

Great new forums. Everything double posts. LOL must be first day issues? 

[shadragon]

Nah, there's just an echo.

The torch works fine until you are stuck on an ice sheet in high winds. Then fuggetaboutit. I've begun carrying a road flare in my hand ready to use at all times. I've not been jumped since then, but assume the hotter magnesium flame will act like a torch. Even if they don't want to have a spear (that is throwable) a pike you can embed in the snow and let them charge onto would make sense. 

I've seen regular updates on this project and I suspect the devs are working hard behind the scenes. I just don't like being a human Piñata time after time.  

[Hotzn]

It's surprising that you got attacked during the first hour after starting a new game on voyageur difficulty. Last I knew was that wolves do not spawn before some hours have passed on voyageur (was it 18 hours?). Has that changed?

Interesting idea to tape phone books around your forearms as a means of defence. Would you carry several phone books and tape around and start taping as the wolf attacks? Or would you run around all day long with your arms heavy as lead?

@KD7BCH - I would not take the devs' silence as a sign of ignorance. They prefer to work on the game instead of hanging around the forums too much. That's a good sign, is it not? But they sure didn't miss the clamour some people made about the missing spear. The spear may still see the light of day. I for my part prefer to avoid wolves rather than carry a spear around, but that may just be personal preference.

[Raphael van Lierop]

We're here. Not much new to say about Wolf encounters. Yes, there is a "grace" period of 12-hours of game time in Voyageur before Wolves spawn, but that could pass quickly if you rested it all away. Two wolf encounters in 1 hour of realtime seems quite reasonable to me, and the cause can depend on a lot of factors: you were moving through an area that they consider territory, they detected you from afar and found you interesting, your Condition may have been weak, making you more of a target, you may have been carrying raw meat which draws them to you, etc.

You have several tools at your disposal to avoid the Wolf. If you fail to avoid the wolf, using these tools, then you will Struggle with the Wolf, in which case we automatically select the best "tool" in your inventory, for your defense. If you succeed at fighting off the wolf, it will minimize your exposure and whatever damage you will sustain. The "damage" is inflicted as events, some of which are more serious than others (all the way from ripped clothes to lacerations causing blood loss and bruises and whatnot in between). If you fail to win the struggle, not only do you expose yourself to the full extent of the length of attack (and subsequent damage events), but you may also lose gear items, some of which are scattered after you "wake up" simulating the wolf having gone through your pack. 

You also have various "active" tools as your disposal to deter the attack: torches, flares, decoys, rifle, bow, distress pistol, etc. 

Re: Spear -- KDBCH, no need to take it personally that we haven't acted on your love of spears. We have a lot of community requests to consider. Some of them are in line with our goals and vision for the game, and others are not. The lack of a spear in the game at the moment doesn't indicate the spear will never end up in the game. It also doesn't indicate it will. If we get to the point where we feel the spear is the right next thing for us to work on, we will work on it. If we never get to that point, we won't. So it goes.

In short, Wolves are to be avoided. For the most part, there are many systems and feedback mechanisms that provide you with early warning that Wolves are around. They vocalize when they detect you. They vocalize when they have decided to investigate you. They vocalize when they are coming after you. They don't spawn close to exits so you are unlikely ever to be ambushed by one. Be aware of your environment and you will almost always be able to avoid one. Sprint if you need to get away -- distance and breaking line of sight can help. If they find prey they prefer to you (which is pretty much anything else), they will ignore you and go after that thing. 

If you pay attention to what the game is telling you, you can learn to survive. Torches are "free" with any fire, which is now pretty easy to make. You can also craft them independently. Having one handy in case you encounter a Wolf is not a bad idea. If all else fails, drop a Decoy (food item, automatically chosen from your inventory, whatever has the strongest scent and will distract the Wolf) to buy you some time to Sprint and escape. Engagement is the failure condition. But keep your Condition high and you will almost never get taken down by a Wolf in Voyageur. You will likely crawl away to lick your wounds and live to fight another day. Don't give up.

 

 

 

[shadragon]

Hi Raphael,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. 

The mechanic surrounding the encounter itself is fine. The vocalization beforehand, etc. I know he's coming and have no issues with that at all. It works well. I have a road flare in my hand now all the time because torches, in the open and wind, are too unreliable. Have not tested the effectiveness of the flare yet as I've been lucky in avoiding them since. At the time I had a torch, but was on an ice sheet in high wind and didn't bother trying to light it. I survived both attacks, but the second left me in very bad condition. My concept of a pike would keep them at arms length and should allow the attack to be repulsed without damage. I gain nothing and lose nothing; stalemate. If your game approach is wolf attack = mandatory damage then there's not a lot we can do about avoiding that. 

Have a great weekend. 

 

[Wasteland Watcher]

On 2/26/2016 at 10:01 PM, shadragon said:

I have a road flare in my hand now all the time because torches, in the open and wind, are too unreliable. Have not tested the effectiveness of the flare yet as I've been lucky in avoiding them since.

My experience is that it's smart to always have a lit torch if the wind allows. You can either brandish the torch - or - you can drop it between you and the wolf and leave.
The wolf will stop and won't come closer than the dropped torch because it fears fire.  Dropping the torch gives you an escape vector. Away from the wolf (not around).

Always carry small pieces of raw meat but keep your distance from wolves: they can smell it. Paradox, right? But if a wolf notices you and is heading your way, drop that small piece of meat and move in the opposite direction.

Flares are what I use if I want to avoid a wolf confrontation, my torch has blown out, and I'm all out of bait-meat. I'll light the flare and throw it at the wolf. It'll get startled and run away...for a few seconds. That gives me time to go pick up lit flare and then beat feet for home-shelter.

Like Raphael stated: if your condition is high (and you have a hunting knife or hatchet) there's a good chance you'll win the conflict. And if you have the time to follow it from a distance and the weather is in a good mood you'll also gain food and a very useful pelt from the encounter.
Be careful when harvesting though...I don't recommend spending more than 30 minutes per action at a time because the weather can change, and that can be more dangerous than any wolf.

I wish you luck in The Long Dark

[SteveP]

You may find it useful to just carry the torch and then light it when you hear the wolf growling at you. If you learn where the wolves hang out, it's easy to just use the torch to get past them to shelter. That's quite important to get into the Desolation Point Lighthouse or the Quonset Hut.

[KD7BCH]

On 2/26/2016 at 6:20 PM, Hotzn said:

It's surprising that you got attacked during the first hour after starting a new game on voyageur difficulty. Last I knew was that wolves do not spawn before some hours have passed on voyageur (was it 18 hours?). Has that changed?

Interesting idea to tape phone books around your forearms as a means of defence. Would you carry several phone books and tape around and start taping as the wolf attacks? Or would you run around all day long with your arms heavy as lead?

@KD7BCH - I would not take the devs' silence as a sign of ignorance. They prefer to work on the game instead of hanging around the forums too much. That's a good sign, is it not? But they sure didn't miss the clamour some people made about the missing spear. The spear may still see the light of day. I for my part prefer to avoid wolves rather than carry a spear around, but that may just be personal preference.

You said it was ignorance not me. I said they've rejected the idea of adding more ways to defend an also major tweaking to wolves which they have not done in a year now since the v.212 release. Avoiding wolves is all you can do unless you want to engage. If you wanted to engage for food or to clear the area a spear would be readily available to be crafted in the real world using existing materials. Has nothing to do with ignorance just devs prioritizing other elements. 

[KD7BCH]

On 2/26/2016 at 6:52 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

We're here. Not much new to say about Wolf encounters. Yes, there is a "grace" period of 12-hours of game time in Voyageur before Wolves spawn, but that could pass quickly if you rested it all away. Two wolf encounters in 1 hour of realtime seems quite reasonable to me, and the cause can depend on a lot of factors: you were moving through an area that they consider territory, they detected you from afar and found you interesting, your Condition may have been weak, making you more of a target, you may have been carrying raw meat which draws them to you, etc.

You have several tools at your disposal to avoid the Wolf. If you fail to avoid the wolf, using these tools, then you will Struggle with the Wolf, in which case we automatically select the best "tool" in your inventory, for your defense. If you succeed at fighting off the wolf, it will minimize your exposure and whatever damage you will sustain. The "damage" is inflicted as events, some of which are more serious than others (all the way from ripped clothes to lacerations causing blood loss and bruises and whatnot in between). If you fail to win the struggle, not only do you expose yourself to the full extent of the length of attack (and subsequent damage events), but you may also lose gear items, some of which are scattered after you "wake up" simulating the wolf having gone through your pack. 

You also have various "active" tools as your disposal to deter the attack: torches, flares, decoys, rifle, bow, distress pistol, etc. 

Re: Spear -- KDBCH, no need to take it personally that we haven't acted on your love of spears. We have a lot of community requests to consider. Some of them are in line with our goals and vision for the game, and others are not. The lack of a spear in the game at the moment doesn't indicate the spear will never end up in the game. It also doesn't indicate it will. If we get to the point where we feel the spear is the right next thing for us to work on, we will work on it. If we never get to that point, we won't. So it goes.

In short, Wolves are to be avoided. For the most part, there are many systems and feedback mechanisms that provide you with early warning that Wolves are around. They vocalize when they detect you. They vocalize when they have decided to investigate you. They vocalize when they are coming after you. They don't spawn close to exits so you are unlikely ever to be ambushed by one. Be aware of your environment and you will almost always be able to avoid one. Sprint if you need to get away -- distance and breaking line of sight can help. If they find prey they prefer to you (which is pretty much anything else), they will ignore you and go after that thing. 

If you pay attention to what the game is telling you, you can learn to survive. Torches are "free" with any fire, which is now pretty easy to make. You can also craft them independently. Having one handy in case you encounter a Wolf is not a bad idea. If all else fails, drop a Decoy (food item, automatically chosen from your inventory, whatever has the strongest scent and will distract the Wolf) to buy you some time to Sprint and escape. Engagement is the failure condition. But keep your Condition high and you will almost never get taken down by a Wolf in Voyageur. You will likely crawl away to lick your wounds and live to fight another day. Don't give up.

 

Appreciate your thoughts Raph. We haven't had update to the sandbox since December. Regarding the wolves no substantial AI updates since v.212. I know you guys are hard at work on storymode. Please continue to work hard.

Fact is the OP indicated what everybody playing has and concluded that is wolves can be dangerous. Yes there are ways to counteract wolves that isn't in dispute either. The reason I have on numerous time advocated for spears is because a strong correlation of players, i.e. the majority of those who quit the game after playing 20,40,60 hours quit because of the incessant wolf action. Many revisions ago the game was more about making decisions about survival taking risks in the environment and less about the wolves. The wolves in the game as you say are to be avoided except that isn't true either. Wolves in the game are a primary food source and the hunting for them or engagement of them under certain conditions don't present significant risk whatsoever. Knife + Full health + Low Encumbrance = Constant Low Risk Food Supply. Wolves are also a tool to hunt deer which are much easier to direct into the path of a wolf, allow the wolf to kill and then drive off the wolf, because the AI is completely predictable. Not just predictable but direct-able. 

Wolves only present a substantial challenge in Hour 1, Day 1 to new players who either fail to avoid or choose wrongly not to avoid them. 

I would rater see AI improvements which make the animals less predictable and surely not direct-able. Bears on the other hand while much more dangerous, suffer from the same AI limitations where you simply need to use the same torch tricks on them as you do on wolves. I'm not being critical here just explaining the advocacy. In any survival situation where you have to think and act primally you need to use some tools and techniques that primal humans used to get by in the absence of modern equipment. A spear is an example. I trust you will one day put it in. And as you say maybe you won't in which case maybe you wont. 

Wild Animals are wild because they can't be predicted and they act on instinct. They don't think logically, you can observe this when you see videos on you tube where a wild animal of the wrong type is caught in a trap and there are men helping to free it but their instinct is to flee even though they know they are trapped. The AI don't right now don't behave like that at all. They are very predictable and of course direct-able. I know TLD isn't finished and so there will be AI updates but right now your focus is on story and that is great because we eagerly await the first chapter of that mode with the added benefits of improvements to the sandbox to follow. 

 

[elloco999]

On 29-2-2016 at 4:11 AM, Wasteland Watcher said:

Always carry small pieces of raw meat but keep your distance from wolves: they can smell it. Paradox, right? But if a wolf notices you and is heading your way, drop that small piece of meat and move in the opposite direction.

Wolves can smell raw meat from a much greater distance than cooked meat and cooked meat still works as a good distraction for the wolves. So I would recommend carrying cooked meat for this purpose.

[Raphael van Lierop]

1 hour ago, KD7BCH said:

 

Maybe we need to make Wolves "less edible".  It's true that in the last major updates to Wolf behaviour, the modifications to struggle pushed it into a direction where it was less immediately lethal, and more about emphasizing your relative vulnerability as you become exposed to myriad individual afflictions. So, death by a thousand cuts (bites?) as it were. 

All good points/thoughts, and thanks for those. Game AI is tricky, not in that it's hard to make AI behave in a believable/intelligent fashion (although, that is also hard), but that in the end the AI's role is to support interesting gameplay opportunities for the player, and in some cases, allow the player to feel smart in learning to master the AI as a system. The goal of AI is not, typically, to be challenging, as much as it is to appear challenging, and allow the player an opportunity to learn to master game systems. Good balance/tuning ensures that this process happens with enough friction to remain interesting for the player.

Certainly more variability in AI behaviours would be welcome! The fact that players learn to "game" the AI at some point proves there is mastery going on, which is good! Learning to understand and manipulate wildlife to your benefit is also good! This becomes part of your survival toolbox. The main issue you identify is the lack of variation and depth in the AI. This is partly due to our setting (it's difficult to find "new" hostile wildlife types to introduce, as we have a realistic setting -- we can't add the blue wolf, the red wolf, the wolf with a rocket launcher, the dual-wielding ninja/stealth wolf, etc.), and also just...well, not to make excuses, but due to being a small team and having to prioritize. The lack of variation in challenge when it comes to dealing with wildlife does mean that once you understand the system, you don't get as much of a dopamine hit for each success. Your brain has already learned this pattern. We need to be able to offer more patterns!

In general, while wildlife (in nature) can be unpredictable, there are definitely a limited number of likely outcomes to any given scenario, which is why you can learn how to respond in an ideal fashion, to animal encounters (the studio happens to be located in a part of Vancouver Island with a fairly high density of bears and cougars, so understanding these "rules" is top of mind for us). Most of the time, animals only behave unpredictably when they are sick (rabid) or there are other environmental stimuli that cause them to behave out of their normal mores/societies -- ex. bears whose cubs are threatened is the classic example, but this could also apply to a wolf who has been cast out of a pack, or adolescent cougars who are learning to hunt and haven't yet "normalized" themselves to humans, etc.

In any case, the main take away here is that we have room to improve our wildlife behaviour and presence. And we will continue to work on it.

[LucidFugue]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We need to be able to offer more patterns!

That's a great way of thinking about it. While having new wildlife to interact with is great, adding more depth to the interactions that exist is a definite possibility.

I think wolves need to balance their aggression with a sense of self preservation. I don't see engagement as a failure condition when the player is seeking it out. You can buy yourself freedom of movement in an area for several days, plus the resources the wolf's corpse provides, in exchange for damaged clothing, a sprain, condition loss, or at worst a wound at risk of infection. I agree when engagement happens on the wolf's terms it is dangerous, and the survival stories that creates are dramatic and effective. But while the wolves will not let up when you are in bad shape, their existing behaviours are a bit lacking when the player is more of a danger to the wolf than the other way around.

It would be great to see a more evolved, cautious stalking behaviour - where a wolf continued to follow the player at a distance but retreated if charged, only to return to its stalking behaviour.

This is more in line with the behaviour of an opportunistic scavenger, and I suspect it would create a level of tension in players who would otherwise be comfortable exploring. If they were aware they were being followed by a wolf, but were unable to force the engagement on their own terms (as the wolf would always outrun them), then the player simply knows that if they make a misstep, either pushing themselves too far, getting lost in a blizzard, or taking a fall and spraining their ankle, that may tip the wolf into an aggressive state where it pushes for an engagement. I think that would make me use meat as a decoy a lot more often, because at the moment I use flares/torches when I don't want to fight, and aggressively depopulate them if they are going to be a hinderance to easy movement for me.

[SteveP]

2 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

In general, while wildlife (in nature) can be unpredictable, there are definitely a limited number of likely outcomes to any given scenario, which is why you can learn how to respond in an ideal fashion, to animal encounters (the studio happens to be located in a part of Vancouver Island with a fairly high density of bears and cougars, so understanding these "rules" is top of mind for us). Most of the time, animals only behave unpredictably when they are sick (rabid) or there are other environmental stimuli that cause them to behave out of their normal mores/societies -- ex. bears whose cubs are threatened is the classic example, but this could also apply to a wolf who has been cast out of a pack, or adolescent cougars who are learning to hunt and haven't yet "normalized" themselves to humans, etc.

In any case, the main take away here is that we have room to improve our wildlife behaviour and presence. And we will continue to work on it.

In analyzing what makes great videos, GELtaz and I zeroed in on the excitement and adrenaline kick from the wildlife interactions. I like to boost the game sound effects to experience the incredible growling noises of the wolves and bears! I think growls and other sudden vocalizations goes a long ways to boosting the excitement "kick".

Imagine your are strolling along the overhanging cliffs on Mystery Lake and you hear the terrifying shreak of a cougar! Even if there is no cougar, the thought of that cougar fills you with primordial dread. Suddenly, unaware of it's presence, a cougar leaps on your back, knocking you to the ground! Of course what happens next is up for debate; certainly one is going to have multiple lacerations and perhaps a drop in condition of around 50%. I think there has to be some struggle mechanic here because if you just let the cougar have its way, it's going to kill you.

How do you avoid the cougar? well for one thing, you don't make yourself a target; you stay away from the cougar ambushes by trail awareness. Don't walk under a cliff. Perhaps if you are observant, you will see them up there, watching you with baleful eyes. I know when I'm hiking, I'm always carrying a walking stick and any action can frighten the cougar off especially if it sees you see it. Standing tall, waving your arms, violently swinging your stick or lit torch should dissuade attacks as would perhaps the appearance of other predators.

If the team made wolves track people like they do in real life, the wolf encounters could get a lot worse. Maybe the wolves should be a little more aggressive but less frequent in encounters. I do enjoy (if you want to call it that) the scare of the multiple wolves. I think circling and stalking could be useful alternatives if you have a lit torch for example. There are certain terrain features that seem to block the wolves but they are few and far between. With flares, you can throw them but not the lit torches. You can throw an unlit or extinguished torch but I have never tried it. Certainly worth a try and a possible means of scaring the stalking wolf off. If you had multiple wolves surround you with your lit torch, you'd be pinned down. Any movement closer to a wolf in any direction is going to trigger an attack from one corner; heaven help us if the wolves actually attack en masse! Certainly an alternative to consider for Stalker or Nightmare mode. If we had the abiilty to pick up rocks and throw them or even throwing sticks so that it might take multiple rock throws to finally convince a wolf (or cougar) to vamoose.

I like how you have prepped this posting from the perspective of explaining the value of that feature (Scrum concept) as well as exploring the costs a little bit too (small team) This helps to frame the proposal in terms that the user community understands as value/cost/risk. I think we get great value from this Indie approach because we get the better cohesiveness of product by virtue of a tighter understanding of what is being offered for value.

There are other value options too for mastering a difficult mechanic such as flint knapping. If only the mechanic could give some idea of the numerous kinds of processes involved in shaping a flake and sending the thinning flakes across the flake once its symmetrical. Of course I could go on and on but I'm going to be honest. A full treatment of knapping is a big cost: first of all we need to understand the tools and processes and then there is just a ton of work to model each of those various processes. I think it could be done; your really could build an entire game just on that crafting. I think it could also be added in stages just like the wood harvesting mechanic which was dummied out during early game. You could probably work it up in three staged releases or three months together with other maintenance and stuff. I don't like the endless crafting systems of so many games where you can craft a huge number of items without any real learning process occurring. There is little payoff in achievement of mastery there. This really belongs on a more detailed posting on knapping itself so I'll stop myself now.

I hope folks can appreciate that we are breaking ground here with the community based approach to game design; this is very much the Scrum appproach. I find it very rewarding and I suspect a lot of our other members who take the time on the forum also get that. There is a real sense of ownership and value of our inputs here!

[elloco999]

6 minutes ago, SteveP said:

Any movement closer to a wolf in any direction is going to trigger an attack from one corner

This is not how it works now. If you move 2-3 feet closer to a wolf, it will not attack. If you wait a second or so, it will move back. This way you can 'push' it back slowly until you open up an avenue of escape.

One way to escape a situation where you're encircled by wolves would also be to just light a fire and wait. Or just keep your torch going. If the wolves can't get to you for X amount of time, they will give up. (Or so I've been told. Never did test it for myself.)

[selfless]

The torch is the current defensive tool and is overpowered.  Unless it is going to be nerfed, no other tool need exist.

Should it be nerfed?  I think so.  Giving wildlife the "life" to actually circle around flames would at least eliminate the practice of dropping a torch and pinning animals in place so you can walk away risk-free.

Further, if frightened wolves could remember what they were doing before they got scared, then frightening would only be a temporary reprieve leaving torch brandishing or throwing flares a halfway measure of protection.

But do we really need a mechanic to grant the player such lethality as to fearlessly walk through a valley of wolves and and leave nothing but carnage in his wake?

[cekivi]

As I understand it the downside of the torch is it's brief duration, the fact you can't light it in poor weather and, if I understand the mechanics correctly, it will go out quickly if high winds start. So, while it may always work against animals I don't think it's overpowered since there's always the element of "can I get this to light in time?" and "is my torch about to go out?".

[KD7BCH]

7 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Maybe we need to make Wolves "less edible".  It's true that in the last major updates to Wolf behaviour, the modifications to struggle pushed it into a direction where it was less immediately lethal, and more about emphasizing your relative vulnerability as you become exposed to myriad individual afflictions. So, death by a thousand cuts (bites?) as it were. 

All good points/thoughts, and thanks for those. Game AI is tricky, not in that it's hard to make AI behave in a believable/intelligent fashion (although, that is also hard), but that in the end the AI's role is to support interesting gameplay opportunities for the player, and in some cases, allow the player to feel smart in learning to master the AI as a system. The goal of AI is not, typically, to be challenging, as much as it is to appear challenging, and allow the player an opportunity to learn to master game systems. Good balance/tuning ensures that this process happens with enough friction to remain interesting for the player.

Certainly more variability in AI behaviours would be welcome! The fact that players learn to "game" the AI at some point proves there is mastery going on, which is good! Learning to understand and manipulate wildlife to your benefit is also good! This becomes part of your survival toolbox. The main issue you identify is the lack of variation and depth in the AI. This is partly due to our setting (it's difficult to find "new" hostile wildlife types to introduce, as we have a realistic setting -- we can't add the blue wolf, the red wolf, the wolf with a rocket launcher, the dual-wielding ninja/stealth wolf, etc.), and also just...well, not to make excuses, but due to being a small team and having to prioritize. The lack of variation in challenge when it comes to dealing with wildlife does mean that once you understand the system, you don't get as much of a dopamine hit for each success. Your brain has already learned this pattern. We need to be able to offer more patterns!

In general, while wildlife (in nature) can be unpredictable, there are definitely a limited number of likely outcomes to any given scenario, which is why you can learn how to respond in an ideal fashion, to animal encounters (the studio happens to be located in a part of Vancouver Island with a fairly high density of bears and cougars, so understanding these "rules" is top of mind for us). Most of the time, animals only behave unpredictably when they are sick (rabid) or there are other environmental stimuli that cause them to behave out of their normal mores/societies -- ex. bears whose cubs are threatened is the classic example, but this could also apply to a wolf who has been cast out of a pack, or adolescent cougars who are learning to hunt and haven't yet "normalized" themselves to humans, etc.

In any case, the main take away here is that we have room to improve our wildlife behaviour and presence. And we will continue to work on it.

I agree wolves should be less edible. Maybe less meat than they are trouble for. A food source you'd only want to go for if you were in dire need and had few other options. The whole driving a deer into a wolf pays off way too big and then the approaching a wolf with a flare/torch it works without fail.

Hinterland has come a long way with the wolf AI from the initial work on it and no question it is better than the middle iterations where it was THELONGWOLFATTACK but always the same recognizable patterns are part of the problem. The game should be masterable but for the game to be truly challenging some mechanics should not be controllable or direct-able. What I mean by this is sometimes when you come at a wolf with the torch that wolf should stand their ground and run off but then come right back and attack you from another direction. Or they should continue to do what they do right now which is wait for the brandishing and then sometimes instead of running off they should attack you and it should be unpredictable as to what they are going to do. Wolves should always be a mobile ? mark as to how much trouble they are going to give you and you shouldn't be able to out game the wolf. 

Rather than blue wolf red wolf, each wolf could have a one of a few different AI patterns so you'll never know which one you are dealing with making them more dangerous but the fact that they might be dangerous or might not and there is no way to know without messing around with them. Another way to mix up the AI bang for the buck style might be coding the wolf AI so they also change their AI pattern from day to day those things should push the AI as far as it needs to go.

Rabbit AI is fine.

Deer AI, could use some wolf avoidance, maybe an early burst of speed in the first 50 yards, maybe the wolf gives up the chase, maybe it stick with it. Right now the deer never had a chance to escape right? That is the predictability of using wolves as tools. The technique should still work "some of the time" but not 100%, Sometimes the deer should get away, sometimes the wolf should give up. 

When you guys come back to the AI we could all work together to help improve it. It is a time and resource consuming exercise but it is a daily interaction in the game which makes it a substantial part of the experience. 

Also Cougars! Bring it!  

[cekivi]

Please no cougars!

The last thing the game needs is a predator that is silent, can hide in trees and actively stalks you! The game would feel really arbitrary if you could walk around and have a cougar drop down on your head from a tree. You'd be in serious trouble even if you could fight back. It would run the risk of making the animal interactions feel really arbitrary.

[KD7BCH]

On 3/3/2016 at 10:27 AM, cekivi said:

As I understand it the downside of the torch is it's brief duration, the fact you can't light it in poor weather and, if I understand the mechanics correctly, it will go out quickly if high winds start. So, while it may always work against animals I don't think it's overpowered since there's always the element of "can I get this to light in time?" and "is my torch about to go out?".

Torch lasts for 45 minutes, while the durability in the wind is a factor, typically you can exploit the terrain or force the wolf encounter in a position where the wind protects the torch. Or drop the torch in a place protected by the wind, and drag the wolf to that location via running at and then away from the wolf. The AI is just not capable of thinking for itself and it just reacts in the pre-programmed fashion. If it reacted differently, varying and more random, it would be both more convincing as well as more challenging without being cheap. Keeping it as real as possible while also varied is part of the solution to good AI. 

[Skitfaced]

I wonder if wolves will notice the smell of dropped meat regardless of whether or not they have engaged combat or detected you. Another interesting factor is dropping meat that is upwind of them. Not sure if already a game mechanic as of this update but anyone willing to confirm would be appreciated 

[shadragon]

If wolves were that aggressive then yes I would have a phone book (or leather gauntlet, or a flannel shirt wrapped around it) on my arm and would live with the weighty consequences.  

There's other more aggressive things I could do as well to kill off the wolves, but the animal rights folks wouldn't like it. 

[cekivi]

1 hour ago, shadragon said:

If wolves were that aggressive then yes I would have a phone book (or leather gauntlet, or a flannel shirt wrapped around it) on my arm and would live with the weighty consequences.  

There's other more aggressive things I could do as well to kill off the wolves, but the animal rights folks wouldn't like it. 

I actually proposed something like that a while back:

As I play the game more the wolves seem to be less of a threat since I better understand the mechanics of how they work. However, it would still be nice to have something to defend yourself with.

[Jolan]

On 3/3/2016 at 10:52 AM, selfless said:

The torch is the current defensive tool and is overpowered.  Unless it is going to be nerfed, no other tool need exist.

Should it be nerfed?  I think so.  Giving wildlife the "life" to actually circle around flames would at least eliminate the practice of dropping a torch and pinning animals in place so you can walk away risk-free.

Further, if frightened wolves could remember what they were doing before they got scared, then frightening would only be a temporary reprieve leaving torch brandishing or throwing flares a halfway measure of protection.

But do we really need a mechanic to grant the player such lethality as to fearlessly walk through a valley of wolves and and leave nothing but carnage in his wake?

the furry navigational hazards have attacked me when I've been waving a torch.  Also when I've been chucking flares.  Though I have noticed that if I'm wearing their brethern they tend (only tend) to be more respectful.  They are also frequently circling back right away.  Its gotten to the point where I shoot or deliberately provoke a fight if the wolf is where I want to be wandering around for a day or two.