Cordage, stone tools, gill net, ladder, temp shelters, traps

[cekivi]

We'll agree to disagree then

Also, your English is fine! Much better than my French at least. I'm basically limited to "Je ne comprend pas le francais. Es que tu parle un anglais s'il vous plais"

As for smithing... that was one of the changes that I didn't like much. But it looks like it's here to stay so I guess I can't have everything

[Boston123]

If I was to find myself in a situation like TLD; that is, when electricity "went away", the only element of technology I wouldn't make from metal would be arrowheads. Without power tools, cutting and grinding down "trade points" from sheet metal is a bear. Trust me, I've done it. Everything else would be made from metal, probably knife-blades. A kitchen-knife makes for a pretty nasty spearhead.

I can knock out a servicable arrowhead from a bottle-bottom in a couple of minutes. Even if I couldn't do that, I could use shards of glass as arrowheads pretty easily. Use glass "microliths" set into a carved channel on an arrowshaft.

The important thing to remember about "primitive" arrowheads: they will break. When they hit the target, when they miss the target. With the above method, you can just knock some new flakes off a shard of glass.

[Dirmagnos]

So, while learning flint knapping may be worth it if I was in a group I'd rather just grab 10 steak knives and continually work on improving my shelter, stocking up on firewood, repairing/crafting clothing, and harvesting food.

That is presuming that you can find those 10 steak knifes. Then carry them around in hopes that they wont break or you wont lose them, or any of many others hazards that may happen.

Not to mention that every tool is different and has its own area of implementation. Id love to you skinning an animal with one of those steak knives.

There are things of far more immediate concern that mastering a technique that you should honestly never really need.

Better to know and never need, than need and not to know how.

Besides, the reason why no one today uses stone tools is that humans long ago learned to work metal. It may be the apocalypse. We may not know what happened or what the future holds. But we do have the detritus of an advanced society, the knowledge and tools to craft metal, and lots and LOTS of scrap metal lying around. Why try to re-learn a primitive skill when anyone with a file (or a coarse rock, or a concrete floor, etc.) can give a piece of metal an edge sharp enough to cut with?

And what exactly do YOU know about working metal ? Like if tomorrow youd be dropped in the middle of nowhere with ton of scrap, box of matches and instructions to make 100 razor -sharp knifes ? Would you be able to do it ?

Humanity may know how to work metal, hell, humanity may know a lot of things. Unfortunately humanity collective memory is not passed on thru genes, so it all comes down to what each particular member of that humanity knows how to do.

If I ran out of all manufactured supplies in the situation described in the game I'd be amazed if I was still farting since I'd be over a 100 years old by then!

Spoken like some1 who have idea how hard survival could be, without a hardware store behind a corner or 911 on speed dial.

With all 5 areas in the game, it would be a miracle than average human would last even 10 years on what remains of infrastructure have to offer. Wood rot, metal rust, items break and fall apart.

[toebar]

With all 5 areas in the game, it would be a miracle than average human would last even 10 years on what remains of infrastructure have to offer. Wood rot, metal rust, items break and fall apart.

Human survival aside (as it depends on the person), 1 decent knife and 1 axe should last the 10 years, so your statement's a bit of an exaggeration..

[cekivi]

@Dirmagnos: I get the impression that you're a rather negative person

This is just a game after all. And my opinion is it would still be better to use improvised metal items (I was being a bit facetious when I said steak knives - doesn't really matter what it is) than trying to perfect stone tool making. Plus, you don't need razor sharp to do the job. You just need sharp. And you can sharpen metal. You can't sharpen stone. As for could "I" make a perfect knife? Of course not. I also wouldn't try. Again, you need sharp not razor sharp. Just find a small-ish piece of metal and file it down to what you need.

And yes, between the dozen axes and knifes you can find in the game you should be easily able to last a century if the decay times were accurate. I've got plenty of inherited tools at home that are all as old or older than me that still work perfectly fine.

Seriously though Dirmagnos, this is a game. You really want flint knapping. I really don't. Those are both valid opinions. Calling everyone who disagrees with you an idiot is not. Lighten up man

[Dirmagnos]

Human survival aside (as it depends on the person), 1 decent knife and 1 axe should last the 10 years, so your statement's a bit of an exaggeration..

Under perfect conditions, sure. But were not talking about prepared hike from where you can return back at any time to your cozy warm home with a fridge full of cold beer.

@Dirmagnos: I get the impression that you're a rather negative person

Im the 10th man. I used to debate a lot, but after a while out group fell apart, so now i annoy ppl on various gaming forums. 8)

This is just a game after all. And my opinion is it would still be better to use improvised metal items (I was being a bit facetious when I said steak knives - doesn't really matter what it is) than trying to perfect stone tool making. Plus, you don't need razor sharp to do the job. You just need sharp. And you can sharpen metal. You can't sharpen stone. As for could "I" make a perfect knife? Of course not. I also wouldn't try. Again, you need sharp not razor sharp. Just find a small-ish piece of metal and file it down to what you need.

It is a game, so anything can happen. And while you may not see the need for stone or bone tools, many pople would like to see them. Thats all. I generally associate survival games with ability to last, as thats kinda the point of survival. Some wannt ability to sit, i wannt ability to make the most of what nature has to offer. If we could dismantle anything and everything in the game, then it would be a different story.

To be honest, my main interest is to find something to do in the game. Like events, or ton of crafting options, or new maps. I couldnt care less about pointless crap like "whos the biggest exploiter or hibernator" leaderboards, i just wannt to play the game, continuously.

[cekivi]

To be honest, my main interest is to find something to do in the game. Like events, or ton of crafting options, or new maps. I couldnt care less about pointless crap like "whos the biggest exploiter or hibernator" leaderboards, i just wannt to play the game, continuously.

Now that is something we both agree on!

Personally, I think bone tools (needles and hooks) should be in the game as well as more clothing crafting options and the ability to repair/improve shelters . The number one thing I want to see are more story elements woven into the sandbox. The mountaineer's journal entry for instance. I was really hoping there'd be more than just one

[Asulf]

I think that for a lot of person, the main interest in the game is to find a point, because after wandering over all the map, surviving for a month, and knowing that without difficulty you could survive for one more year, you're beginning to run into circle. I totally agree with you Dirmagnos, to me the basics of survival is to be able to extract what you need in nature, no more and not less. And I'd say more, that it kind of hurt me to waste a part of my hunt. If you look at primitive culture, they wasted nothing, meat, bones, skin, blood, often they even remember to thanks the spirit of the animal they chased. That's what survival is to me, you waste nothing, because of your own purpose of stay alive and because of respect you owe to the world that give you capacity to stay alive.

[cekivi]

I think that philosophy (waste nothing) is part of the reason why there is an increasing call for bone tools on the wish list forums. Because you're absolutely right: if you used precious energy to hunt something you're going to maximize the amount you can get out of it. In game you can argue that the edible organs are part of the meat you collect and we already harvest the hides. That only leaves the bones.

For me, I play the game mainly to explore. So having a super in depth crafting system doesn't interest me as much. Once all the maps are explored I do tend to lose interest in playing. At that point I'd rather have the option to begin fixing up a base camp (making a smoker, repairing the roof, upgrading my work bench) to try and salvage the modern world as opposed to going in the opposite direction. The reason I'd prefer upgrades over more crafting is that it fits my play-style better as you'll need to explore to get the tools and equipment to make your upgrades.

[vancopower]

JEEZZ I've started a tool war again . My point was to suggest a multi-tool for the times when you are down on your luck either by leaving some supplies at the main base so as not to waste them and then a blizzard happens or, at the start when you desperately need something to defend yourself and start fires.

CAN WE AGREE ON THAT AT LEAST?

Ok somekind of mulitool mechanic (Which is time consuming and replaceable in late game) do we all agree, yay or nay? PLEASE vote

[SteveP]

... Plus, you don't need razor sharp to do the job. You just need sharp. And you can sharpen metal. You can't sharpen stone.

Actually when cutting meat, you do need razor sharp :!: It makes a huge difference when cutting meat even just a turkey.

Also you can "sharpen" a stone tool. It's called retouching and typically done using a pressure flaking tool such as a piece of antler. A stone butchering/skinning knife should have a handle. You can cut meat with microliths (small stone flakes) however it's slower and needs more skill. You would also need some sort of scraper to clean the pelt. Cleaning and tanning pelts is a job for later on in the warmth and safety of your shelter. Provided you had the necessary tools, no need of a workbench.

I agree, it's just a game! That's why things wear out so quickly. It's a game that forces you to make trade-offs and decisions and take risks now and then. It also requires long range planning.

If it adds richness and diversity to the game, I like it. I would love for this game to have a lot more survival and bush-craft stuff in it. Flint knapping is way cool. It's a hobby that is making a huge come back because everyone is wondering when the SHTF such as climate change or economic collapse. If you are stuck in the woods without cutting tools, you would make do and knapping a spear tip or dart tip from the bottom of a bottle or from a china plate would be something one would try. If I had metal, I would use metal or anything I could get. It all varies according to how well it would work and the available tools.

I think I mentioned that shaping hard metal is very very difficult. It's much easier to forge it in a home made forge. Doesn't anyone watch Dave Canterbury any more? The Pathfinders can teach you how to make stuff from found nails, horse shoes, railroad spikes but especially high carbon steel like files or auto leaf springs. 8-)

The quality of the steel is going to determine how long your knife will hold its edge before getting dull and hard to push through meat.

Three part video on forging a hand knife fire-striker tool :idea: Part 3 covers shaping, tempering, sharpening and honing. This is an excellent tutorial on the science of making knives. Watch and learn :!: :arrow:

[bBvideo 560,340:1331usbt]

[/bBvideo]

Two part video on smithing a stock knife (tool) with a brief discussion of the differing heat treatments for strength, malleability (softness) and hardness.

[bBvideo 560,340:1331usbt]

[/bBvideo]

[SteveP]

Just to summarize, I think we agree that after wandering around the maps and exploring, that the game needs to provide something more to do. Make beads? :-)

[cekivi]

Just to summarize, I think we agree that after wandering around the maps and exploring, that the game needs to provide something more to do. Make beads? :-)

Yes, we just can't agree on what

[vancopower]

On 22.2.2016 at 6:57 PM, cekivi said:

Yes, we just can't agree on what

I agree too, maybe with the introduction of NPC's there will be some kind of trading like meat, water and crafted tools for something more rare like bullets, matches, tools ect.

[cekivi]

Hopefully. The thing is NPCs will be restricted to the single player game. I don't think we'll ever see NPCs in the sandbox

[vancopower]

2 hours ago, cekivi said:

Hopefully. The thing is NPCs will be restricted to the single player game. I don't think we'll ever see NPCs in the sandbox

No they will exist in sandbox, the devs confirmed it, as to how and when nobody knows I  admit I can't wait to see how they will introduce NPC's in this game. Lot's of people don't like the idea since they got used to I AM LEGEND style of play, but not me I can't wait to see other humans in this game or maybe even traders maan that would be awesome. However if having NPC means making TLD in to FPS clone  with weapon in front of you then I don't want them too. It will spoil the ambient but I am confident that the Devs will create something unique again, also I never mind something similar to wolf fight, or even slo mo like in fallout series when entering VATS. Wow I got sidetracked there, anyway SteveP
 thanks for the awesome video man that kind of tool should be introduced in to the game firestriker-knife but like in the video it should take lot of time to build one. 

[cekivi]

@vancopower Huh, adding NPCs to the sandbox could go really wrong, really quickly

NPCs have the potential to be great but depending on how they behave (e.g. always aggressive or unwilling to help a starving player) they could be really immersion breaking

[cekivi]

@vancopower Huh, adding NPCs to the sandbox could go really wrong, really quickly

NPCs have the potential to be great but depending on how they behave (e.g. always aggressive or unwilling to help a starving player) they could be really immersion breaking

[vancopower]

7 minutes ago, cekivi said:

@vancopower Huh, adding NPCs to the sandbox could go really wrong, really quickly

NPCs have the potential to be great but depending on how they behave (e.g. always aggressive or unwilling to help a starving player) they could be really immersion breaking

Are you worried about the AI?  What if instead of having NPC running around they are more like special situations that you need to deal with, for example choosing BTW 2 options attack  or approach friendly and based on that certain things will happen for example if the NPC is friendly you can trade some stuff, or if not friendly and you don't attack than you get shot or worse and there will be struggle just like with the wolf YEA I think this would actually work maybe more for the story but can be added in to sandbox too.

[SteveP]

I totally disagree that this game is merely about "exploring". There is considerable exploring in the game however I think it's more about planning and thinking as that's what makes survival possible. Improvisation is also important but there are very few opportunities in this game as it now stands. Cordage could give us a lot more ways to improvise all sorts of things.

If the devs were to add flint knapping, one obvious use is for fire starting but to use that in real life, is much more difficult than you might think. We practice it using a Ferrocerium rod and unless you have magnesium, it is very difficult unless you have dry sawdust or dry finely ground birch bark. If you were to use a flint and steel, you would absolutely need a special tinder such as char cloth or charred horse shoe fungus. In this way, you would make a fire and prepare one or more special char cloth or other easy to start tinder for your next fire. If you don't and your matches are all used up, then the only other option to start fire would be a flare (long used up) or magnifying glass.

By having alternative fire starting technologies such as bow drill or Inuit fire drill, we can extend the game play time indefinitely and make the game a little more skill based. Right now, matches are extremely common in the game; the game even seems to spawn new ones in glove boxes or other miscellaneous locations when the supply runs low. I think we should be forced to learn the alternative fire making techniques.

I think The Long Dark represents a new genre in game playing. It's not just exploration (a maze would satisfy that fundamental need but be extremely boring)

These ideas for bushcraft come from watching Dual Survival and Dave Canterbury's Youtube channel as well as a plethora of other survival/bushcraft videos and web resources. I think Hinterland is tapping something that has substantial interest for people with the survival theme. Frankly, I'm puzzled by people who say "I don't need this feature" when features add to the richness and interest of the game especially for the target audience of survival enthusiasts. Sure, as the game works now, you wouldn't need any new features to add to the game in order to "win" or complete the game however requiring us to master several skills (fire starting, advanced fire starting, knapping, crafting etc) adds richness and verisimilitude (a taste of reality) If this were taking place in the real world, then definitely, the limited matches becomes a serious problem. I use a zippo lighter since I can refill it using coleman fuel or naptha and I can scavenge flints from empty butane lighters. Running out of flint and fuel for a zippo in the wilderness is very bad; no fire!

I should stop; this really is up to Raphael and the developers to decide. We're invited to suggest features in wishlist; don't mean they will be implemented (in this game) I do enjoy sharing survival knowledge and hunting tips. I'd like to see hunting and stalking enhanced somehow, perhaps by letting the animals wander off their prescribed pathways. I don't recall if I suggested letting us improvise a hunting blind but that would be another thing. We've already mentioned a plethora of pit, deadfall and spring loaded traps that can be improvised from bush materials.

[SteveP]

4 hours ago, vancopower said:

I agree too, maybe with the introduction of NPC's there will be some kind of trading like meat, water and crafted tools for something more rare like bullets, matches, tools ect.

Good idea. I think there might already be a thread for NPCs; if not, I'll start up a new one. There are a TON of ways it can be done.

[vancopower]

1 minute ago, SteveP said:

Good idea. I think there might already be a thread for NPCs; if not, I'll start up a new one. There are a TON of ways it can be done.

Man don't get me started I could post about a year for NPC's

[Dirmagnos]

NPCs in sandbox could be a really good idea, part of extending gameplay.

With various personalities, it would add a lot to game. For example, those NPCs that are doing good, would be extremely suspicious of player, and it would take some convincing to get on their good side, like completing various requests. But they would also provide player with good trades. On the other side, helping some poor schmuck, who has nothing of value, may result in potential benefits in distant future. Basically, the better NPC is doing, harder it would get on his good side. Not to mention ability to run into a guy, who would rather take a potshot at you, than chat(hes not bad per se, hes either paranoid or scared, due to all the crap going around).

On plus side, once NPCs are befriended, they can become valuable allies, especially if they are occupying strategical locations. Like, if NPC group have set up base in one of the buildings at Coastal Townsite, it would mean no wolves spawning there and trading with them guarantee wolf hides and meat to be available.

NPCs could be mobile or stationary, and that status may change. They may be solo or in group, up to 3-4 people. They could also loot area they are located in/moving thru. They can die. They can be killed by player or kill player. There is no "magical" karma system, where helping one means that every1 start automatically to like player, but word may move around after a while.

They can be cheerful, depressed, lost or determined, paranoid or headstrong, experienced survivalists or stay-at-home wifes.

They could have a number of needs, that would allow player to increase trust level with them if completed. That in turn would lead to trading and learning(like if one of them is experienced hunter and can teach player some of his trade) opportunities. 

And, for the love of God, no casual crap, like some generic trader sitting at fixing location and selling goods, or NPCs considering protagonist some-kind of Savior(without even meeting him once), that is extremely common in modern games, where every1 seem to heard of some-kind prophecy that states that player character is the one who will deliver them from this disaster and immediately recognize player as one. You are just another guy trying to live thru it, same as them.

Imagine if you met some1 early on, traveling around and then, at some point at some map you run into a corpse of that particular npc that got mauled by wolves. Or hes telling you that he finally gathered enough supplies(or is just fed up with it all) and is gonna try to make a push south, in hopes to find area where things are not as bad.

So on and so forth...

[SteveP]

I wanted to share a beautiful looking chert knife with an antler handle. This is how your improvised stone knife should look if it is to be efficient for butchering meat. Since obsidian is harder than steel, it will keep an edge longer. That means it stays sharper than steel unless you strike bone and chip it.

 

[cekivi]

Only problem is finding obsidian. It's not that common a stone.