Another bogus death due to poor mechanics...


KD7BCH

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According to wiki about shivering:

When the core body temperature drops, the shivering reflex is triggered to maintain homeostasis

"when it drops" and not when it dropped below a certain point. Shivering is the first countermeasure the body takes, when your bar is down to half you have lost already ~1C of temperature if you follow what I've written before. You do shiver but much earlier than before you freeze. Listen to your character ingame when he starts to shiver (you hear it clearly) or complaining that he needs to escape this cold and check your temperature bar.

So for RL purposes if you want to implement it right, shivering would only wake you if you went to sleep with a full temp. bar from an environment that was keeping you warm enough to not begin dropping temperature, e.g. you leave fully rested a house and the instant you leave it you drop your bedroll on the ground and sleep for 6 hours. When your bar now begins to drop you could start to shiver and wake but who in his right mind would do this?

For gaming purposes I am strongly against such a mechanic because as someone has already mentioned, one could simply go to sleep whenever he likes and let the mechanic wake him if he is about to die, then make a fire and continue sleep.

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I just think situations where you go to bed in the mountaneers cabin warm and the weather changes and you freeze half to death in the middle of the night are totally wrong and not a fun game mechanic.

A couple of remarks: 'It's frustrating' is not the same argument as 'It's not realistic'. I see these two arguments conflated quite often.

Secondly: the situation you're describing is exactly what the OP is advocating for: that instead of just slipping quietly into death while sleeping, the developers create a mechanic which wakes you in case of your condition dropping drastically (say: below 30% or so), because of weather conditions or thirst or something like that.

Of course the question then always becomes one of arbitrary thresholds: why put it at the brink of death and not 30% health, why on 30% and not on 50%, or 80%; why not when your body is starting to freeze; or when your body is about to freeze, or when there's a sudden drop in temperature? Etcetera.

Thirdly: instead of demanding the game adapts to you, you might consider adapting your playstyle to the game. You might make the mistake of sleeping for a long period of time in the Mountaineers Cabin or an open cave once, and then you'll know that's not such a bright idea, because outside temperatures will affect inside temperatures. Better sleep in short spurts in case the weather turns into a blizzard, and better store enough fuel for the fire.

It's not hard to learn.

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I just think situations where you go to bed in the mountaneers cabin warm and the weather changes and you freeze half to death in the middle of the night are totally wrong and not a fun game mechanic.

Your issue here is that you make a gamble (stay warm during the night) and you don't accept to loose it.

What you basically ask is something that not forces you to think and act to avoid bad situation.

Since fighting for your life *is* the purpose of The Long Dark, you may want to try another game at this point.

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In cheese and normal modes you have a chance to wake up

When the fire dies out, apparently.

By the way, has anyone else noticed the fire last longer than it proclaims when you let it rest and do something else, like going to sleep?

Many a time, I've matched my sleeping time to the amount of time the fire indicates it's going to burn, to find out that it actually has a fair amount of time left when I wake up. I'm not complaining though, it's a nice bonus!

Which brings me to another touch of lack of realism which is actually makes playing easier:

Not only do you have exact control over the amount of time one sleeps, but you also have a firm grasp on how long the fire is going to last. You don't have to guess or find out through experience, or keep it going; you can just pile on the wood, look at the readout, and act accordingly (well, at least if you're smart/lucky enough to hunker down in a place that's sheltered from the wind).

Just imagine how frustrating this game would be if the developers would carry realism through down to every facet.

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What difference does it make? The feedback is that they are too numerous. The feedback is players are poorly equipped to deal with them. The feedback is they detract from the game. The feedback is pretty clear on the why you would not recommend the game and the longer you play the game the more and more often it is about the WOLVES.

Your ability to mix up everything is really astonishing.

What difference my clarification makes? Well, for starters it might possibly prevent some players from simply doing nothing during a wolf attack (and thus take way more damage than necessary) because they've read your false claims and thus believe that they will take the same amount of damage no matter what they do. At least I hope they won't stop fighting back, no-one can tell whether you've already spilled that milk for some readers or not.

Not that I expect you to understand let alone accept your responsibility for influencing others with your rumors when you're even reluctant to take responsibility for your own doings.

Scyzara when you write...

I'd rather like the Devs to spend some time improving the current "smash one button and pray to the gods of rng" wolf handfighting system. Possibly even a complete overhaul of the mechanics to make it e.g. possible to throw your knife or hatchet at an approaching wolf. Could chase away the wolf and save you a handstruggle if you hit, but missing would force you to fight the beast barehanded afterwards. Might add some nice risk vs. reward trade-offs imho. :)

In another thread it seems to me you agree with the long term players regarding the way we interact with wolves myself included. If so isn't it a matter of degree as to how it gets fixed and in what way it gets fixed?

Stop mixing up everything. My description of the current handfighting mechanics was neither a praise of them nor a vindication for them, it was merely an attempt to prevent people from acting wrong (=not fight back) based on false rumors.

If I write an essay about the political system in North Korea it doesn't automatically mean that I favor said system, does it? You honestly need to learn to differentiate what people say and why they say it. And please stop to devide the world in friends and foes. The world is not as simple as toddlers (and a certain American politician) believe it to be.

Let me tell you a secret:

People aren't either 100% for or 100% against all of your various opinions. The only thing that successively causes them to be more and more against everything you write is your immature and irresponsible behavior and your refusal to stop writing the same pointless walls of text about your complaints over and over again.

This is my personal assessment of what is currently happening in this very thread and I strongly suggest you to read these bold sentences at least five times in order to realize their meaning and importance. Please act accordingly.

@others: Yeah.. I know I'm too kind occasionally. But this topic is really getting hard to look on.

Im sorry to have offended you Scy. I will post a vid showing how I view wolf interaction. I was posting your exact words and I'm not trying to be immature at all. I apologize you think so.

Here is my video showing that fighting wolves clicking or not clicking accomplishes much the same.

https://youtu.be/XM0iBh1BAos

And another...

https://youtu.be/YweqD1149Bw

The only reason the 2nd to last wolf ran off due to clicking was they were already in an engagement and did not kill the player. Both examples show where player takes damage clicking or not clicking, the wolves move off and it doesn't make a difference certainly not like it did in the beginning of development.

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According to wiki about shivering:
When the core body temperature drops, the shivering reflex is triggered to maintain homeostasis

"when it drops" and not when it dropped below a certain point. Shivering is the first countermeasure the body takes, when your bar is down to half you have lost already ~1C of temperature if you follow what I've written before. You do shiver but much earlier than before you freeze. Listen to your character ingame when he starts to shiver (you hear it clearly) or complaining that he needs to escape this cold and check your temperature bar.

So for RL purposes if you want to implement it right, shivering would only wake you if you went to sleep with a full temp. bar from an environment that was keeping you warm enough to not begin dropping temperature, e.g. you leave fully rested a house and the instant you leave it you drop your bedroll on the ground and sleep for 6 hours. When your bar now begins to drop you could start to shiver and wake but who in his right mind would do this?

For gaming purposes I am strongly against such a mechanic because as someone has already mentioned, one could simply go to sleep whenever he likes and let the mechanic wake him if he is about to die, then make a fire and continue sleep.

You can't listen to your player when he is sleeping. The indicators were that the character was recovering warmth until they didn't. Suppose we'd have a fire for 2 hours, and slept for the 6 hours, still possible to die without waking up shivering which is not realistic or good gameplay. It isn't good gameplay on day one and it sure as hell isn't on day 400 when you have so much time invested. Shivering designed by nature as a reflex to alert the body to warm up.

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I just think situations where you go to bed in the mountaneers cabin warm and the weather changes and you freeze half to death in the middle of the night are totally wrong and not a fun game mechanic.

A couple of remarks: 'It's frustrating' is not the same argument as 'It's not realistic'. I see these two arguments conflated quite often.

Secondly: the situation you're describing is exactly what the OP is advocating for: that instead of just slipping quietly into death while sleeping, the developers create a mechanic which wakes you in case of your condition dropping drastically (say: below 30% or so), because of weather conditions or thirst or something like that.

Of course the question then always becomes one of arbitrary thresholds: why put it at the brink of death and not 30% health, why on 30% and not on 50%, or 80%; why not when your body is starting to freeze; or when your body is about to freeze, or when there's a sudden drop in temperature? Etcetera.

Thirdly: instead of demanding the game adapts to you, you might consider adapting your playstyle to the game. You might make the mistake of sleeping for a long period of time in the Mountaineers Cabin or an open cave once, and then you'll know that's not such a bright idea, because outside temperatures will affect inside temperatures. Better sleep in short spurts in case the weather turns into a blizzard, and better store enough fuel for the fire.

It's not hard to learn.

Im ok with it not instantly waking you up and a semi-random recursive type increasing % chance per hour being used to enable you to potentially survive.

Your 3rd point is absolutely relevant. But this playstyle is neither realistic and as several have said before it is not good gameplay. I agree with them.

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@illanthropist

This was a tested mechanic after discovering this happens. I would not actually take this gamble past day one. Nevertheless let me describe a different situation which would yield the same outcome. Lets say I did have a fire, sat in front of it making water for an hour. Was at full warmth, at 61% health, went to bed in the same temperature and sleeping bag for six hours and had a fire for 3 hours. At six hours of rest I'd expect to regain about 7% condition per hour.

Say the weather drastically changed and now the temperature was -10F, and I began to freeze one hour after my fire went out. So my condition would top out at 61+(3*7) = 82%. Since when freezing condition drops about 30%/hour. I'd still die in my sleep before waking up in the 5th hour without shivering which would occur in real life. And I still argue gameplay wise that this would suck donkeyballs.

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In cheese and normal modes you have a chance to wake up

When the fire dies out, apparently.

By the way, has anyone else noticed the fire last longer than it proclaims when you let it rest and do something else, like going to sleep?

Many a time, I've matched my sleeping time to the amount of time the fire indicates it's going to burn, to find out that it actually has a fair amount of time left when I wake up. I'm not complaining though, it's a nice bonus!

Which brings me to another touch of lack of realism which is actually makes playing easier:

Not only do you have exact control over the amount of time one sleeps, but you also have a firm grasp on how long the fire is going to last. You don't have to guess or find out through experience, or keep it going; you can just pile on the wood, look at the readout, and act accordingly (well, at least if you're smart/lucky enough to hunker down in a place that's sheltered from the wind).

Just imagine how frustrating this game would be if the developers would carry realism through down to every facet.

I don't think carrying down every facet of realism is being advocated by the majority of the playerbase. However where both realism and gameplay is served it would make some sense to at least get looked at. I disagree with the following arguments made so far, that it would make the game boring, or that it would make the game too easy, or that it would make the game a handholder.

I would be in favor of being unable to set the time you sleep, as well as knowing exactly how long your fire is going to burn for.

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Suppose we'd have a fire for 2 hours, and slept for the 6 hours, still possible to die without waking up shivering which is not realistic or good gameplay. It isn't good gameplay on day one and it sure as hell isn't on day 400 when you have so much time invested. Shivering designed by nature as a reflex to alert the body to warm up.

As illanthropist already pointed out: according to the Hinterland advert for Deep Forest, they've already implemented this mechanic in Pilgrim and Voyageur. The fire dying out has a good chance of waking you up.

In Stalker mode however, you're on your own "as the hardcore survivalists among you seem to prefer".

However, you're asking for even more: you want to be able to rest your head for 6 hours while already freezing cold, in temperatures which are already at around zero, and then get a wake up call when the temperature drops a few degrees.

Which is a bit like asking how it's possible homeless people freeze to death in the winter. Shouldn't nature provide them with an automatic wake-up call, to warn them they're about to drift into the long dark?

So many bogus deaths out there...

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Suppose we'd have a fire for 2 hours, and slept for the 6 hours, still possible to die without waking up shivering which is not realistic or good gameplay. It isn't good gameplay on day one and it sure as hell isn't on day 400 when you have so much time invested. Shivering designed by nature as a reflex to alert the body to warm up.

As illanthropist already pointed out: according to the Hinterland advert for Deep Forest, they've already implemented this mechanic in Pilgrim and Voyageur. The fire dying out has a good chance of waking you up.

In Stalker mode however, you're on your own "as the hardcore survivalists among you seem to prefer".

However, you're asking for even more: you want to be able to rest your head for 6 hours while already freezing cold, in temperatures which are already at around zero, and then get a wake up call when the temperature drops a few degrees.

Which is a bit like asking how it's possible homeless people freeze to death in the winter. Shouldn't nature provide them with an automatic wake-up call, to warn them they're about to drift into the long dark?

So many bogus deaths out there...

Looks good, I was unaware of that. It appears this is by design. Thank you for the heads up.

On to your point about the homeless. That is really fucking crass of you. I mean really fucking crass

Homeless people of course shiver. Im not sure how homeless shelters work in the Netherlands but in the USA a substantial problem homeless have is shelters frequently are overcrowded because my country has not learned that it is in the best interest of itself to be sure everybody has a place to sleep and food to eat. It is a real problem unlike these game issues which I present simply for debate. Another reason people who are homeless and have access to a shelter don't use them sometimes when it is cold but not freezing cold or freezing cold but not incredibly freezing cold is because the beds are often contaminated with lice or bedbugs or disease. Homeless shelters can also be places of violence, and theft. Homeless people who are bereft of resources frequently have their shoes or boots stolen in an environment which can further complicate things for them since walking outdoors without shoes or boots in urban environments in any weather... you know what you are an asshole I appreciate your heads up on the whole mechanic from the video. But I'm just done, having lost absolutely any fucking respect I had for you with that heartless remark.

Bethany please close this thread and issue the appropriate warnings. Myself included.

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@illanthropist

This was a tested mechanic after discovering this happens. I would not actually take this gamble past day one. Nevertheless let me describe a different situation which would yield the same outcome. Lets say I did have a fire, sat in front of it making water for an hour. Was at full warmth, at 61% health, went to bed in the same temperature and sleeping bag for six hours and had a fire for 3 hours. At six hours of rest I'd expect to regain about 7% condition per hour.

Say the weather drastically changed and now the temperature was -10F, and I began to freeze one hour after my fire went out. So my condition would top out at 61+(3*7) = 82%. Since when freezing condition drops about 30%/hour. I'd still die in my sleep before waking up in the 5th hour without shivering which would occur in real life. And I still argue gameplay wise that this would suck donkeyballs.

I'm not being argumentative but you are saying that this sucks balls, I guessed you were testing the mechanics as you empathised it with your mouse during the video but consider this.

Realism: You wouldn't fall asleep in the first place in such conditions you'd spend all night shivering and exhausted. I've been there done that and salvaged the T shirt for char cloth ;)

There are that many variables to calculate for realism, I mean potentially we'd all end up playing the female protagonist as females statiscally have less chance of succumbing to hypothermia. The devs have to draw the line somewhere and I think what they have is a good balance.

I'm still a noob and during my 1st play got lost in a blizzard at night, sheltered from the wind, eventually got a fire going piled up to burn for 6hrs and hit the rest button.

The storm direction changed, blew out my fire and thankfully I woke up before dying as was playing in easy mode.

The only fault I can pick with the devs is the lack of a BASIC guide to the game as pdf or something, I only knew about the differences in difficulty after another member linked the video above in a different thread.

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Just refreshed and noticed a post i hadn't read, I think the homeless remark is being taken out of context and wasn't necessarily meant as derogative.

I've been homeless both by choice and circumstance in the past but didn't find the remark offensive as it isn't intended to be.

Chaps, let's play nice and civil. We are all here for the same reason because we love this awesome game and want to share our passion and help it grow.

/hugs

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Hi everyone, I'm closing this thread at the request of the OP. Even when you strongly disagree with someone, please remember to stay friendly and respectful in your language and conduct here in our forums. If you find yourself unable to do that in a particular moment, take a break, take a breath, or feel free to send me a message letting me know what's on your mind.

Thank you.

--Patrick

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