KD7BCH

WOLVES

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I dont know how to write this

use a damn TORCH. this is a defensive option.

you can go, face the wolf and make him run away.

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I dont know how to write this

use a damn TORCH. this is a defensive option.

you can go, face the wolf and make him run away.

I didn't have a torch.

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Hi everyone,

As always, please be thoughtful in the way you are discussing the game and in conversation with your fellow players. Describing things as "crap" over and over doesn't add anything to your feedback.

Thanks,

--Patrick

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Basically what everyone seems to be trying to tell you, KD7, is that your (valid) complaint would carry significantly more weight, if you didn't display such poor game-play in your sample video.

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@KD7BCH:

Go pick up four sticks and light a fire, then you have a damn torch. Takes about ten seconds.

I really have the impression you're not interested in any kind of advice or help from other players at all and only want to rant that your preferred "running around like a headless chicken" playstyle doesn't work in Stalker mode.

Sorry if this sounds impolite, but a lot of players tried to help you, watched your video and have spent quite some time to write down thoughtful and good advices how you could improve your playstyle. And you don't even consider that they might possibly be right but insist on your own point of view instead. That's not only pretty ungrateful but also not very mature.

Take-home message for today:

If five people tell you you're doing something wrong, you might want to take into consideration that you're possibly really doing something wrong.

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A lot of players who accept the game as it is without question...

I have to disagree. There's plenty of criticism on the game, it has also been noted that wolves basically function as zombies in this game. Which tends to become repetitive.

Hey, *I* would like to see a wolf AI that's less one dimensional (wolves patrolling certain areas, attacking the player on sight), that turns it more into a strategic battle. But that would probably take weeks or even months of plotting out, reprogramming and calibrating, while Story Mode demands all attention.

In any case: the way you framed your argument is that your video constitutes some kind of evidence the game is broken because of the number of wolves in stalker mode; though every experienced player here has pointed out that your playstyle in that video is simply very, very poor. No wonder you get mauled by wolves again and again.

There are scores of players out there who manage to thrive on Stalker. Why? Because they adapted their playstyle to the game. Now personally, I find that to be too much of a hassle (I see how these players play, hugging the slopes all the time) but that's why I mainly stick to Voyageur, which suits me just fine; it gives me enough room to find the means to fend off or even kill wolves, so that I can avoid combat altogether. Nobody forces anyone to play on Stalker. It's meant to be gruelling.

So before you complain that the game is broken because of 'too many wolves' on Stalker, maybe you should show that you have the chops to deal with them as is. We might start taking your criticism that the game is ruined because of wolf infestations more seriously.

2. As far as the spear suggestion goes...

First of all, you'd need to find a knife or hatchett to make one, so at the beginning of your run, it changes little. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of your video one iota. So your point is mute.

Secondly, if the spear would keep wolves perfectly at bay, scare them off or even injure them it would completely eviscerate their danger (which is very real at the moment). One could simply run into wolf inhabited areas like you did and when a wolf comes running at you, you simply take out your spear and start poking the wolf until it runs of. Wow, that's real danger, right there!

You don't seem to appreciate that the whole idea of the wolves in this game is to present the player with a risk-vs-reward dynamic. He or she needs to avoid confronting wolves at all costs, because wolf fights will seriously set them back, yet he or she also wants the goodies in the houses patrolled by wolves.

So that takes some careful planning. Maybe you shouldn't opt to visit the waterfront cottages right off the bat (because it's so wolf infested), but go the other way, where there's more room to maneuver. Or maybe you should avoid starting on Coastal Highway in Stalker altogether.

Edited by Guest

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I really have the impression you're not interested in any kind of advice or help from other players at all and only want to rant that your preferred "running around like a headless chicken" playstyle doesn't work in Stalker mode.

True that. Basically, we're wasting our time trying to engage with someone who doesn't seem to want to listen at all, and just keeps repeating his initial point.

That said, I am intereted in how you - as an experienced stalker player - deal with the three wolves at the waterfront cottages in CH. Because I tried stalker mode a couple of times, and if I remember correctly, what made me decide to abandon Stalker Mode is that I tried to sneak crouched past the wolves there and got surprised by one anyway.

What bothers me as well is that the game doesn't allow you to leave the house crouched, so as soon as you leave the door, there's a good chance you'll be spotted by a wolf. You can't properly sneak out of the house that way.

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That said, I am intereted in how you - as an experienced stalker player - deal with the three wolves at the waterfront cottages in CH. Because I tried stalker mode a couple of times, and if I remember correctly, what made me decide to abandon Stalker Mode is that I tried to sneak crouched past the wolves there and got surprised by one anyway.

Back in the days when you couldn't pull torches out of campfires I would probably have waited for a blizzard to occur and gone to the waterfront cottages shortly after it ended. Wolves are usually completely gone after a blizzard, at least for one or two hours.

Nowadays I would simply light a campfire, grab a torch, make sure to have 2 or 3 tiny pieces of meat in my inventory as decoys and simply walk over there. In TLD, a torch (or a flare or a campfire) is like an anti-wolf sci-fi energy shield. You're completely secure inside as long as you don't move towards wolves that have reached the minimum security distance. They themselves will never move so close towards you that they attack. Only your own movement can make them trespass the critical minimum attack range and thus cause them to jump you despite your torch. If you're careful, you're perfectly safe.

The decoys are thus just a backup security mechanism for the (pretty unlikely) case that the wind might blow out the torch. But as you know... always better safe than sorry. ;)

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A lot of players who accept the game as it is without question...

I have to disagree. There's plenty of criticism on the game, it has also been noted that wolves basically function as zombies in this game. Which tends to become repetitive.

Hey, *I* would like to see a wolf AI that's less one dimensional (wolves patrolling certain areas, attacking the player on sight), that turns it more into a strategic battle. But that would probably take weeks or even months of plotting out, reprogramming and calibrating, while Story Mode demands all attention.

In any case: the way you framed your argument is that your video constitutes some kind of evidence the game is broken because of the number of wolves in stalker mode; though every experienced player here has pointed out that your playstyle in that video is simply very, very poor. No wonder you get mauled by wolves again and again.

There are scores of players out there who manage to thrive on Stalker. Why? Because they adapted their playstyle to the game. Now personally, I find that to be too much of a hassle (I see how these players play, hugging the slopes all the time) but that's why I mainly stick to Voyageur, which suits me just fine; it gives me enough room to find the means to fend off or even kill wolves, so that I can avoid combat altogether. Nobody forces anyone to play on Stalker. It's meant to be gruelling.

So before you complain that the game is broken because of 'too many wolves' on Stalker, maybe you should show that you have the chops to deal with them as is. We might start taking your criticism that the game is ruined because of wolf infestations more seriously.

2. As far as the spear suggestion goes...

First of all, you'd need to find a knife or hatchett to make one, so at the beginning of your run, it changes little. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of your video one iota. So your point is mute.

Secondly, if the spear would keep wolves perfectly at bay, scare them off or even injure them it would completely eviscerate their danger (which is very real at the moment). One could simply run into wolf inhabited areas like you did and when a wolf comes running at you, you simply take out your spear and start poking the wolf until it runs of. Wow, that's real danger, right there!

You don't seem to appreciate that the whole idea of the wolves in this game is to present the player with a risk-vs-reward dynamic. He or she needs to avoid confronting wolves at all costs, because wolf fights will seriously set them back, yet he or she also wants the goodies in the houses patrolled by wolves.

So that takes some careful planning. Maybe you shouldn't opt to visit the waterfront cottages right off the bat (because it's so wolf infested), but go the other way, where there's more room to maneuver. Or maybe you should avoid starting on Coastal Highway in Stalker altogether.

You can pick up a sharp stick from the ground and that can function as a spear. The argument that you need a knife to make a spear is also bonk because you can use a stone. Nobody crafted a spear with a knife made of steel 100,000 years ago, they used stones. Wood is a daily touch item, any part of the land not covered by snow is stone or ice, so I don't agree that it is moot at all. What I disagree on is that gameplay of the "pros" is in any way natural at all to the extend you would really rely on avoiding wolves by sight IRL because in IRL they would smell you from farther than you could see them. Your vision in game is better than their vision in game so that is why your gameplay is as it is. But this is not natural or fun or realistic or good gameplay either. The bow and arrow is a advanced gameplay simply because you can't make it until you have advanced the curing time but there is no other basic option without the luck of the rifle draw or knife draw. Really not what you would do if you were out in the woods and lost and there were predators. You'd utilize whatever was available to you and wood is available from day one and in abundance every day.

I am further arguing that spears belong in the game because of the density of wolves which is also frankly very unrealistic and arcady.

I am not looking for advice on how to deal with them I already know avoid avoid avoid, Guns guns guns, bow and arrow backed with knife, knife backed by 3/4+ rest and light loading. As I said before this isn't my first rodeo with the wolves.

What I am questioning is why there are so many, and why we don't have an option for day 1 when you dont have a knife and dont have a bow or gun. If the answer is make a torch from a fire, well if you can gather sticks, you should be able to gather one that is spear like enough to be used as defense or offense against a wolf with more ability than fisting them in the face. I'm seeing that nobody agrees with this on here because everybody wants to keep playing the same ole same ole, instead of seeing it advance.

The talk with other "experienced players who've quit the game, moved on or failed to recommend it is pretty concentric around the wolves experience and that they are cheap.

Allow me to address the voyageur argument since this is always a fun one. It isn't challenging once you have mastered all there is to master on Stalker except for the cheapness of wolves. It isn't challenging at all.

The density problem isn't so much the threat from wolves though on day 1 they are more of a threat than at any other time. The problem here is that there is too much food to be had too many resources to be had. Anybody who plays to day 50, knows you have enough pelts and guts and hides to provide for a whole colony of survivors but TLD sandbox is only ever 1 player so what is the balance there? Answer: There isn't balance.

So that is my point. I wasn't attempting to demonstrate proper wolf avoidance behaivor at all in the video I was attempting to utilize the new journal feature to tell a story which I think will vastly improve the game watchers who may get interested in TLD and for those fans who enjoy watching replays and picking up new techniques that way. Fact is wolves are really cheap day 1, day 10 they are annoying, and food, day 20 they are annoying and food, day 50 they are annoying and food, day 100 they are annoying and food, day 200 they are annoying and food.

What more should I say about it? You shouldn't only have to fight them with the bow, or the gun,or have your ability to fight them off be artificially modified by the game because of your players "fatigue level" when nothing else is seriously affected by it until you are out of stamina.

On the argument, dont go to waterfront. On the very next play through I did another Stalker, Random start, starting in the exact same location on Coastal, and went right back slightly different approach, different time of day, still day, no wolves, first item search was yielded a antiseptic bottle in the front cabinet by the door. LOL.

The game doesn't rely heavily on skill enough, it relies on luck too much, and the stamina thing doesn't artificially improve your abilities it artificially makes the wolves stronger, by making your punches much much weaker. I don't think that is good design. I also don't like the button mashing that is the current wolf dynamic. Nuff said.

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To make a spear: Take long, sturdy stick, rub on abrasive stone. There are plenty of "abrasive stones" in the game world, from the rocky outcroppings to concrete floors. Harden this tip by lightly charring it in a fire. Boom, done.

Adding a metal/glass/stone tip would only make the spear more effective, but it wouldn't really be necessary.

Oh, and spears would be perfectly balanced in and of themselves, due to the fact that the "business end" is 6+ feet away from you, at the end of a pole. If you miss the wolf with the thrust, or it even just jumps back and charges you again, chances are you are going to have a bad time. If they get implemented, spears should have two methods of use: a quick jab, to keep wolves back away from the player ( wouldn't work when they are already charging), and a heavy stab, either to directly attack the wolf, or to try to make it veer off when it charges.

If you miss with either of those methods, you would have to fight the wolf off by hand, in the usual fashion.

Oh. and even with a spear, wolves wouldn't become a cakewalk. You could feasibly get laid into by more than one at a time ( has happened to me before, when I aggro'd multiple wolves by mistake)

In reality, a spear would be the #1 item I would make in a TLD-type situation, probably within minutes after starting. I have no real reason not to. Assistance when walking through heavy snow, additional support when walking on ice, something to push back brush with, -AND- a useful self-defense tool? Sure!

Or, if you can't make a spear, why wouldn't you want to whap a wolf upside the head with a length of firewood? Getting down where "they have the upper hand" (aka on the ground, on your back, with your vitals and throat exposed) is literally the last thing you would want to do. Yet...... it happens every time you confront a wolf. Throw things at them, scream, wave your arms ( aka try to make yourself look bigger and more threatening), something, other than lie down and give them the upper hand.

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To make a spear: Take long, sturdy stick, rub on abrasive stone. There are plenty of "abrasive stones" in the game world, from the rocky outcroppings to concrete floors. Harden this tip by lightly charring it in a fire. Boom, done.

Adding a metal/glass/stone tip would only make the spear more effective, but it wouldn't really be necessary.

Oh, and spears would be perfectly balanced in and of themselves, due to the fact that the "business end" is 6+ feet away from you, at the end of a pole. If you miss the wolf with the thrust, or it even just jumps back and charges you again, chances are you are going to have a bad time. If they get implemented, spears should have two methods of use: a quick jab, to keep wolves back away from the player ( wouldn't work when they are already charging), and a heavy stab, either to directly attack the wolf, or to try to make it veer off when it charges.

If you miss with either of those methods, you would have to fight the wolf off by hand, in the usual fashion.

Oh. and even with a spear, wolves wouldn't become a cakewalk. You could feasibly get laid into by more than one at a time ( has happened to me before, when I aggro'd multiple wolves by mistake)

In reality, a spear would be the #1 item I would make in a TLD-type situation, probably within minutes after starting. I have no real reason not to. Assistance when walking through heavy snow, additional support when walking on ice, something to push back brush with, -AND- a useful self-defense tool? Sure!

Or, if you can't make a spear, why wouldn't you want to whap a wolf upside the head with a length of firewood? Getting down where "they have the upper hand" (aka on the ground, on your back, with your vitals and throat exposed) is literally the last thing you would want to do. Yet...... it happens every time you confront a wolf. Throw things at them, scream, wave your arms ( aka try to make yourself look bigger and more threatening), something, other than lie down and give them the upper hand.

Here is a guy who gets it. I wouldn't advocate it being a cake walk either with a spear, but it is a basic weapon you could make immediately and without "advanced" time delays or resource grabs. As a counter they could make wolves act in packs instead of singly which is what they do IRL anyway. Long and short of it is in bold above.

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Fact is wolves are really cheap day 1, day 10 they are annoying, and food, day 20 they are annoying and food, day 50 they are annoying and food, day 100 they are annoying and food, day 200 they are annoying and food.

Agreed. They are annoying and food. Now I challenge you to plot out how many extra hours of development it would take to make the AI of the wolves such, that they remain a constant, ominous threat, but are less 'cheap'. What would such wolf behaviour look like, and how long would it take for the devs to develop it?

And how does the addition of a spear adress the cheapness of wolves? What could the spear do that the torch can't, except to give the player a psychological advantage and to injure and kill the wolves, which will result in even more pelts and food, which you now claim is the actual issue?

I am not looking for advice on how to deal with them I already know...

And yet, in your very second post, where you offer a video to illustrate what you mean, you literally asked:

Here you go you guys show me how the hell to deal with this bs. I did decoy, I did try evasion. They were one me from the moment I stepped out of the house, coming up the road, they were on me again and again and again, and even when they weren't around me I had to get something to treat the wounds, they were surrounding me.

If you weren't looking for advice on how to deal with the wolves, that's an odd way of phrasing the question.

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I ONLY play stalker, please don't make the wolves easier..

In fact, I prefer it to be even harder... especially if you are ill equipped. This is supposed to be the hardest mode, so keep it difficult. There are other modes for those who want an easier game.

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KD7BCH, I really dont get your obsession for spear since it has already stated many times that there are tools in the game that have the same purpose than spear. And tools that can be found as soon as you get in game. If you refuse to use them, it's your call, but whining because you dont use them doesnt seem quite smart.

On a side note, actually wolves are your best friends too: for example, they are the *only* way for you to survive in timberwolf moutain (when you start in the zone), because they kill deers for you.

Edited by Guest

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And how does the addition of a spear adress the cheapness of wolves? What could the spear do that the torch can't, except to give the player a psychological advantage and to injure and kill the wolves, which will result in even more pelts and food, which you now claim is the actual issue?

I don't get it either and I'm almost completely sure KD7BCH hasn't thought about it thoroughly himself.

A torch can be created within seconds after you start a game and it will protect you against wolves without any risk of injury. A torch won't kill the wolf of course, but you won't have to hand-fight it either.

No idea why on earth you could want to fight and kill wolves within seconds after the start of a game (when you probably still lack bandages and/or antiseptic). Especially as fighting them isn't necessary at all because torches offer perfect protection without a fight.

It can probably all be boiled down to this nonsense "I would do it in real life, thus I want to do it in TLD at any cost as well"-argument that I already criticised in this thread.

Think through your spear more thoroughly before you suggest it, dammit. It wouldn't help you more than a torch right after the start of a game, it would actually be much worse than a torch because it would still require you to fight! Which will not only decrease your condition and possibly leave you bleeding but also force you to find bandages and antiseptic (or at least antibiotics) fast enough before you die. Which is exactly what you just complained about!

For goodness' sake, THINK THROUGH the stuff you post. Don't just write it down here only because you would do XYZ like that in real life.

Your best friend for your "walking around without looking thoroughly" playstyle already exists KD7BCH and it's not called "spear" but "torch".

Just to make this clear:

I'm totally indifferent whether we get a spear as a crafting option or not, but I don't believe that it would add anything meaningful or new to the gameplay, at least not for me. It would just be some kind of alternative for the knife, much like the bow is some alternative for the rifle. It would probably be slightly different in use and efficiency, but still the very same thing in principle. And I don't see how it might ever be more helpful than a torch at the start of a game.

I for one don't have even the slightest desire to hand-fight wolves on purpose during my first one or two days of play and later on I will almost certainly already have found a knife, hatchet or prybar anyway.

But I'm outta here now. Some people only want to rant and thus can't be argued with.

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Fact is wolves are really cheap day 1, day 10 they are annoying, and food, day 20 they are annoying and food, day 50 they are annoying and food, day 100 they are annoying and food, day 200 they are annoying and food.

Agreed. They are annoying and food. Now I challenge you to plot out how many extra hours of development it would take to make the AI of the wolves such, that they remain a constant, ominous threat, but are less 'cheap'. What would such wolf behaviour look like, and how long would it take for the devs to develop it?

And how does the addition of a spear adress the cheapness of wolves? What could the spear do that the torch can't, except to give the player a psychological advantage and to injure and kill the wolves, which will result in even more pelts and food, which you now claim is the actual issue?

I am not looking for advice on how to deal with them I already know...

And yet, in your very second post, where you offer a video to illustrate what you mean, you literally asked:

Here you go you guys show me how the hell to deal with this bs. I did decoy, I did try evasion. They were one me from the moment I stepped out of the house, coming up the road, they were on me again and again and again, and even when they weren't around me I had to get something to treat the wounds, they were surrounding me.

3 wolves in the area. Nothing for them to hunt, no rabbits, no deer, so what the hell are they doing there? Guarding loot? What loot? I successfully made it into both houses looking for antiseptic, there was none, nothing else in those houses justifies 3 wolves on patrol there. Were it the case then the damn should be guarded by a whole squadron of 6-8 wolves were this the logic being followed. Make no sense. That is the gameplay response. IRL you wouldn't have wolves hanging out where there isn't food to be had, they'd either be on the move or consuming a kill that is what wolves do. They don't "hang out" in areas where there is no food source.

If you weren't looking for advice on how to deal with the wolves, that's an odd way of phrasing the question.

I already know the tricks of working wolves. When you dont have any weapons its avoid avoid avoid. Avoid avoid avoid still doesn't get you beyond the jumped on you wolves that you miss because you can't possibly spot every wolf in the game ever.

You could start by making your players ability to do damage to wolves uniform across all fatigue levels except for the baseline one where you can't run.

You could continue by bringing back the wolf fighting system from September back where you required use of two buttons which was a better system than the button mashing one. You could also develop a melee system where you have hit boxes and make the wolf combat an actual thing instead of a button mash suck fest of a minigame where you cant do anything but mash a button. In the current build even if you use Autoclicker by Shocker to click as fast as your cpu will register to flood the interrupts the game maximizes your clicks at a level which in certain situations is impossible for you to outclick the bar by which the wolf will still mortally wound you. WHAT FUN IS THAT? Why would anybody want to play a game where they invest in dozens of hours on a run, only to have it end where a wolf gets a jump on them when they are tired and instead of letting the player's skill and fending off the game "eliminates" your chance of coming out of it on it's own. I am not a game engineer but I know they've sold more than enough copies already to fund better systems.

I am looking for changes to density and also spears. Spears would also be a defensive weapons if such a melee system existed for wolves that could also be a system used for bears as well to which right now there is no system at all. Bears large and small you have zero chance against torches, don't work against bears, though IRL the bear unless massively pissed or defending cubs, is a much more timid animal than even the wolf. See youtube videos of cats slapping bears in the face and forcing them to run off online for reference.

I also provided numerous examples of where a spear has been used as a more basic more available weapon and it simply should be in the game.

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And how does the addition of a spear adress the cheapness of wolves? What could the spear do that the torch can't, except to give the player a psychological advantage and to injure and kill the wolves, which will result in even more pelts and food, which you now claim is the actual issue?

I don't get it either and I'm almost completely sure KD7BCH hasn't thought about it thoroughly himself.

A torch can be created within seconds after you start a game and it will protect you against wolves without any risk of injury. A torch won't kill the wolf of course, but you won't have to hand-fight it either.

No idea why on earth you could want to fight and kill wolves within seconds after the start of a game (when you probably still lack bandages and/or antiseptic). Especially as fighting them isn't necessary at all because torches offer perfect protection without a fight.

It can probably all be boiled down to this nonsense "I would do it in real life, thus I want to do it in TLD at any cost as well"-argument that I already criticised in this thread.

Think through your spear more thoroughly before you suggest it, dammit. It wouldn't help you more than a torch right after the start of a game, it would actually be much worse than a torch because it would still require you to fight! Which will not only decrease your condition and possibly leave you bleeding but also force you to find bandages and antiseptic (or at least antibiotics) fast enough before you die. Which is exactly what you just complained about!

For goodness' sake, THINK THROUGH the stuff you post. Don't just write it down here only because you would do XYZ like that in real life.

Your best friend for your "walking around without looking thoroughly" playstyle already exists KD7BCH and it's not called "spear" but "torch".

Just to make this clear:

I'm totally indifferent whether we get a spear as a crafting option or not, but I don't believe that it would add anything meaningful or new to the gameplay, at least not for me. It would just be some kind of alternative for the knife, much like the bow is some alternative for the rifle. It would probably be slightly different in use and efficiency, but still the very same thing in principle. And I don't see how it might ever be more helpful than a torch at the start of a game.

I for one don't have even the slightest desire to hand-fight wolves on purpose during my first one or two days of play and later on I will almost certainly already have found a knife, hatchet or prybar anyway.

But I'm outta here now. Some people only want to rant and thus can't be argued with.

Scarza, of the people who left the game, with 20+ hours of experience a substantial majority indicated it was due to the Wolves or boredom in the late game. Wolves have been a central theme, the central villain and undergone several tweaks. Been thinking about this since 2014 thanks. Let me lay it out for you a little less succinctly.

When you look at the wolf gameplay they are essentially an everyday annoyance in TLD on the challenging game modes.

They are this way because they are dangerous but also cheap.

They are cheap for 2 reasons.

1. They are plentiful in excess and rather than solely acting as a form of wildlife which is a predator which they should do, they act as a guard dog on patrol, that can simply be outsmarted by not walking where they are when they are there. They don't exhibit enough characteristics either real world or good game play characteristics to justify their level of constant "cheap danger" nuisance to players. The suggestion was made I was trying to encounter wolves. No what I was trying to do was go up the road, and I got jumped. I picked a direction left or right on the road and after looking for antiseptic in the houses finding none, I went to the nearest spotted house and encountered more wolves. Six of them in all, in 1.4 miles of travel.

Density case made.

2. The game artificially removes your ability to control your own destiny should get jumped by a wolf, by making you think you cant click your way to your own defense when no matter how hard you click, it doesn't matter if you click or don't in some situations. This is...

A. Completely unacceptable.

B. Not properly balanced that you can click as fast as your cpu will let you and you still won't be able to survive.

C. Out of line with the rest of the way the game is supposed to function.

D. ITS CHEAPO!!!!

You are entitled to disagree.

My point is you can do everything right to avoid wolves and still miss one do you agree with that or is your game so good you never ever miss a wolf ever? Really? Maybe it is...

Suppose it is, and you can do everything right when it comes to detecting them and evading them, eventually circumstances will put you in a situation where you have to confront one. Either you get cornered in a storm, or cornered by 3 of them or etc. It doesn't necessarily matter what it is but it will happen. The moral of the story is, you will eventually have to engage a wolf.

If you are good at evasion it wont happen on day 1 or day 10 but the better you are at it the bigger the let down when it finally does happen on day 162. It might happen at day 559, when your knife is gone. At which point a spear would be mighty handy no?

Losing this way isn't rich like when you are outside looking for food because you've been sick and didn't save up enough food and died in a snowstorm because you couldn't find your way back to a place or because you got hypothermia and you ran out of stamina on the mountain, or when you got an infection but had no antiseptic and couldn't find anything to remedy with and didn't invest the time in finding any. Those are conditions which are fair and rich and should kill you. You make the choices which lead to that, suffer conditions which are partially luck of the draw but mostly cause and effect, and usually layers of cause and effect, which is the purity of the game. When you die from freezing from hypothermia even though you were outside looking for the right mushroom to boil up because you have an infection which is out of control and you got caught in a snowstorm and your core temp dropped pretty bad because you got into wolf fight, one which you survived because you had the knife, then that is a rich and layered cause and effect experience.

Like Vince Lombardi says, you never lose but sometimes the clock runs out on you. The health meter ran out on you. If you'd found a mushroom closer or found another shelter and been able to make heat you'd have survived etc. Anyway the cause and effect gameplay, the layered cause and effect gameplay, is not rich and it is radically different than CHEAPO #2 which is where the game lets you click all you want or not at all but it doesn't matter because sometimes it decides you simply aren't going to be able to endure an engagement which you might not have been able to avoid.

Adding a spear doesn't necessarily remedy these conditions however the developers have thus far sought to give you modifiers like dice rolls in combat which amplify your abilities, hatchet, and knife, well spear should have a modifier too. The thing about spears is you could make them out of wood which is a resource you cant walk 500 feet and not find. Knifes and a hatchet you can walk for days not not find. A spear doesn't have to be a rare resource either. You could have different levels of effective spears too, fire hardened, knife sharpened, or bare wood.

On the supposition of torches being the perfect counter. That is/was only partially true. They will still sometimes attack you if you have a torch.

Im also not sure why you are ok with the bow, which is an advanced craft-able weapon, something you don't find typically but you can choose to make but are opposed to something less effective for standoff attacks but more effective for close in defense and something much more basic than a bow? I simply don't understand why you would object to that. You could also use a bear if there was a melee aspect to nab an occasional rabbit. You could try tossing it with a very low rate of success at a deer.

Please don't make it out like I'm asking Raph to add a lightsabre in the Camp Office thanks.

Edited by Guest

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Just to make this clear:

I'm totally indifferent whether we get a spear as a crafting option or not, but I don't believe that it would add anything meaningful or new to the gameplay, at least not for me. It would just be some kind of alternative for the knife, much like the bow is some alternative for the rifle. It would probably be slightly different in use and efficiency, but still the very same thing in principle. And I don't see how it might ever be more helpful than a torch at the start of a game.

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I dunno. I think it'd make sense if it were possible to actually attack wolves (and other animals), as opposed to deliberately getting yourself attacked. Be it with a knife, crowbar, hammer, axe, whatever, it would be better than the current system, especially when you want to finish off an injured animal. The addition of a craftable spear or club would fit that quite well.

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In the current build even if you use Autoclicker by Shocker to click as fast as your cpu will register to flood the interrupts the game maximizes your clicks at a level which in certain situations is impossible for you to outclick the bar by which the wolf will still mortally wound you. WHAT FUN IS THAT? Why would anybody want to play a game where they invest in dozens of hours on a run, only to have it end where a wolf gets a jump on them when they are tired and instead of letting the player's skill and fending off the game "eliminates" your chance of coming out of it on it's own.

I agree completely with that particular criticism. I just started a Stalker run the other day, and I was doing pretty well, until I tried to shoot a wolf running at me and missed. It was Game Over real quick at about 71% and freezing. Had a knife. Made no difference.

One mistake, and that was it. The current Mash-option seems to work just fine for some players, whereas for others, it's just random and will take a huge chunk out of your health, no matter how fast you push.

However, a spear will not solve that particular issue any more than the torch will. Personally I found the two-button mash system better in that it actually required some skill. Although frustrating at first, you'd get better at it over time.

And again, I dare you to imagine how wolf AI behaviour could be improved, and to plot out how much man-hours development time it will take to program that kind of behaviour into the game.

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I am still confused as to why a bow and arrow, both of which are complicated pieces of equipment and require a deep level of knowledge to make, are "ok" for the game, but a spear isn't.

Bow and arrows: deep knowledge of physics, how that particular piece of wood is going to react when bent, how archers paradox will affect the arrows, etc

Spear: sharp length of wood.

I am still aggravated that a bow and arrow was included, just throwing that out there.

As for the whole argument of "torches are just like spears!"...... I know of no fire in the world where you can start it in 30 seconds, on snow mind you, and after throwing in a couple of frozen twigs you can pull out a flaming brand that burns for hours :roll:

Spears are infinitely more "realistic" than torches, if for that reason alone

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And again, I dare you to imagine how wolf AI behaviour could be improved, and to plot out how much man-hours development time it will take to program that kind of behaviour into the game.

Have them stop "patrolling" in easy-to-figure-out patterns, have them use pack-behavior, and have them actually behave like the intelligent, tactics-using predators that they are?

Imagine: Instead of a wolf derp-charging you as soon as you enter a specific radius, the wolves will just run away from you when you make contact ( so long as you are healthy). You shrug, and head back to your chosen base. Out of the corner of your eye, you see movement suddenly. Looking back, you see a wolf back by the last bend in the trail. Then again, you see movement. And again.

You are being followed, and surrounded. They aren't doing anything, just following you...... watching.

Perturbed, you hurry to your base. Maybe they will be gone in the morning. And, they are. But you find plenty of tracks around your base. Circling, waiting, even getting close to the door and windows. "Whatever", you think, you have a gun/bow/spear. You can handle yourself.

All throughout the day, you keep noticing a wolf in the background, watching. You start to get freaked out when whenever you turn around, you see a wolf (different ones each time) get closer and closer. They aren't attacking (yet), but they are definitely interested in you. You try to hustle back to base, only to get cut off by a wold, right in front of you! It advances towards you, snarling, and you hear the same noise behind you. You are surrounded and cut off from shelter. The wolf in front of you advances, and you move to defend yourself, only to get jumped by the wolf behind you. Game over.

Wolves can already:

-"smell you"

-track you

-chase you

-"threaten" (by this, I mean "advance to you snarling)

ALl they would need is some adjustments to the "engagement" AI to be actual living, breathing, intelligent predators.

Seriously, for a game that touts the whole " we don't have zombies!" shtick, the wolves in this game are totally little more than furry zombies.

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And again, I dare you to imagine how wolf AI behaviour could be improved [...]

Imagine: Instead of a wolf derp-charging you as soon as you enter a specific radius, the wolves will just run away from you when you make contact ( so long as you are healthy). You shrug, and head back to your chosen base. Out of the corner of your eye, you see movement suddenly. Looking back, you see a wolf back by the last bend in the trail. Then again, you see movement. And again.

You are being followed, and surrounded. They aren't doing anything, just following you...... watching.

Perturbed, you hurry to your base. Maybe they will be gone in the morning. And, they are. But you find plenty of tracks around your base. Circling, waiting, even getting close to the door and windows. "Whatever", you think, you have a gun/bow/spear. You can handle yourself.

All throughout the day, you keep noticing a wolf in the background, watching. You start to get freaked out when whenever you turn around, you see a wolf (different ones each time) get closer and closer. They aren't attacking (yet), but they are definitely interested in you. You try to hustle back to base, only to get cut off by a wold, right in front of you! It advances towards you, snarling, and you hear the same noise behind you. You are surrounded and cut off from shelter. The wolf in front of you advances, and you move to defend yourself, only to get jumped by the wolf behind you. Game over.

Wolves can already:

-"smell you"

-track you

-chase you

-"threaten" (by this, I mean "advance to you snarling)

ALl they would need is some adjustments to the "engagement" AI to be actual living, breathing, intelligent predators.

Seriously, for a game that touts the whole " we don't have zombies!" shtick, the wolves in this game are totally little more than furry zombies.

I think maybe you might be underestimating how difficult it would be to successfully implement what you describe . But it'd certainly be a big improvement if they got somewhere close!

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