Burning myself alive

[pasmith]

Twice now I've tried to start a fire too close to my own feet and gotten severely burned. Definitely operator error but you seem to get 'stuck' in the 'starting a fire' attempt and you're burning while the gauge is rising. I haven't figured out a way to abort the attempt.

It be nice if we could either abort it, or just not be able to start a fire on our own feet, since that feels like a real 'video game mistake.' Obviously no one would ever accidentally start a fire on their feet.

[Bill Tarling]

Unless it's the old bug that has cropped back into the updated version, it might now be by design. I'll see if I can replicate and record it, but here are the original pre-alpha threads with the similar discussion

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=615

*btw* If you walk through your campfire, then yes you would get burned (most of us have done that at one point or another), and yes there is first aid in the game to handle it

[pasmith]

Yup that first post you linked to sounds like the exact thing I'm describing. Thanks!

[Guest Alan Lawrance]

This is another example where being able to abort a progress-bar action is needed. We aren't going to stop you from burning yourself in a fire... but we do need to provide a mechanism to stop the action if you want.

[FoneBoneJay]

Would be nice if you make it so you can't be burned without standing in the fire for at least a second. It is possible to spawn in the total darkness, and then upon trying to make a fire, end up being unable to reference your position from the fire and incinerate yourself. So while I agree with the design ideas expressed it would be helpful either making a minimum radius it will allow you to drop it so as to build the fire outside a dangerous zone.

[coryduran]

It still would be handholding imo as well if the devs added in something that would prevent us from starting a fire under our feet. I agree with the devs in the other thread in the sense that we should have the option of cancelling the action but you should be able to start the fire under your feet sure, why not?

[littlefox1970]

On the subject of aborting an action - I was quite frustrated today when as I was searching a car trunk I started to hear growls and could not cease my scavenging of it. An abort "search" would be very nice ...

[coryduran]

lol except there has been a whole thread about this before and the devs are aware. If you still can't cancel out of making the fire than that is one thing, because I know they had intended to fix that, but they never mentioned any intentions to make people unable to start fires under themselves.

Again I don't know if you still can't cancel firestarting, that would be a broken area of the game, but simply being able to start a fire under your player seems intentional. I'm also not sure what you want, the safety area or the cancel out feature?

[littlefox1970]

I think it's kind of cool that we can set ourselves afire by carelessness ... since I heard about it I am always careful to stand back when I start a fire. True to life. This game, I think, is all about careful thoughts and actions. Recklessness will get us killed here as it would in the true wild.

Respectfully,

Little Fox~

[eberg]

I don't think it is remotely realistic that you can spend ten minutes carefully tending a fire and not notice that you are standing in it and automatically move back.

[coryduran]

I don't think it is remotely realistic that you can spend ten minutes carefully tending a fire and not notice that you are standing in it and automatically move back.

Except I've seen someone let their boots burn through to their socks because they didn't realize they were in the fire.

Now it obviously isn't the same situation, but I'm just saying I wouldn't say it's completely out of the realm of possibilities.

[FoneBoneJay]

lol except there has been a whole thread about this before and the devs are aware. If you still can't cancel out of making the fire than that is one thing, because I know they had intended to fix that, but they never mentioned any intentions to make people unable to start fires under themselves.

Again I don't know if you still can't cancel firestarting, that would be a broken area of the game, but simply being able to start a fire under your player seems intentional. I'm also not sure what you want, the safety area or the cancel out feature?

Once executed you can't stop it. At nite you realworld you can see which way is up from gravity. In TLD it wouldn't matter once you light a fire you couldn't stop it. So the issue is two fold, you can't stop the process A. and B. The angle should be limited that you can look down while trying to place a fire should prevent you from placing one directly under you while in the pitch blackness.

Can I ask why you would want to start a fire directly under yourself?

[Orwell 1984]

Ok, this will be a bit lame, but who didnt do lame things in their childhood?

We were out camping with a boat and fishing.

Our camp was near to a nice around 100-200 square meter meadow.

You can figure out the rest:D

Warm summer, bored kid with a (i do not even remember what I used to start some small fire at the corner of the field) tool what is supposed to be used with responsibility.

The whole field burned down, and when my dad figured out what is happening, my punishment was to carry water with a simple bucket without shoes to try to distinguish the fire (ofc it was impossible) as long as it burns.

I totally learned the lesson, so I know it is a bit annoying that I suggest things everywhere but it is my nature, I am sorry for it.

Lets give us the ability to make fire inside too, just because I can do it at this moment right now as well in my own room, and make it have unexpected consequences if you are not skilled enough or if you are not aware of the proper place to set the fire up. (yes, I am suggesting flammable house, how evil is that?)

[coryduran]

I agree with you in the sense that this should be something people can cancel out of, as far as I'm aware that's basically a bug or at least an oversight on the devs part because I have seen them respond before that they want that to be an action you can cancel out of.

I definitely don't agree that it should be impossible for us to start a fire under ourselves though. Like I said, if you want to make sure you aren't doing that, then burn a match or use a lantern. It's all decision making the possibility creates more concern and more to be aware of basically. Not to mention that traveling at night is always a major risk (of course you don't have much choice if you spawn at 9:00pm in a new game)

[TLDFAN]

Spawned 1am, no recognizable locations at all on Stalker, not a great start but I don't complain about my start just things that are working as intended only broken.

Can you name one benefit to starting a fire directly under you that you think the player would be missing out if they removed that ability? I don't understand why you cling to that as a feature?

[Hylander]

I think its good the game lets us do stupid things that kill us, like starting to harvest 30 kg of meat from a frozen bear when you have 10% condition, or walking off the side of a cliff when its pitch dark. You have to use your brains, and what senses the game gives you, to do your best to make sure that doesn't happen. I don't see starting a fire as any different.

[UnlikelyGibbon]

For what it's worth:

I'm not really sure that it makes much sense to be able to start a fire that will immediately kill you.

At the same time, I do think that player-initiated fires should be able to burn and/or even kill you.

But I think that the "killing part" should come from a player who stood in a fire, ignored an urgent/obvious warning (that he/she was on fire...), and then therefore died. If you build a fire too close to yourself, then you can certainly get burned--which is fine by me--but you'd likely notice your error before you actually perished.

And if a player started a fire in the dark and that player happened to be standing close enough to the fire to get burned, then let him/her burn--but only burn, as we should have some sort of warning that we're on fire. After all, if we were on fire, we would more than likely ascertain that fact fairly quickly and respond by moving out of the fire...and if someone ignores that, then let them die by fire. (Perhaps the time available to react could be a function of the player's exhaustion level?)

I say this with at least some experience in the woods and, based on that experience, I suggest that the proposition that "a fully conscious person can be set alight by a campfire and never notice that they are burning until they are dead" is quite unreasonable. I, personally, have had boots (that I was wearing; also those that I was not wearing) begin to burn when sitting too close to a fire that I made--that has happened to me on more than one occasion, I'm embarrassed to say. I've also had (thankfully fairly loose-fitting polypro) garments that got burned when I was too close to a fire on one occasion--this was actually quite dangerous and I'm very lucky to have not been permanently scarred.

So, in short, yes, make it possible for the player to burn him/herself. Make it possible to unwisely create a fire so close that the player will be burned if they don't immediately move from the fire. [Note: After reading elloco's and TLDFAN's remarks below, I edited this last sentence to reflect a slight change in my opinion. It used to say, "...the player will be immediately burned...", but I don't think that's very reasonable, after further consideration.]

But also incorporate some sort of mechanic that will allow the player to remove him/herself from the fire--it doesn't need to be particularly forgiving, but it does need to give the player a reasonable opportunity to move out of the fire, since that's what any sane person would do.

Well, those are my current thoughts--and they're not unique, as other people have suggested similar things and/or some sort of interruptible fire-starting process. Just throwing out ideas here...

Regards,

--Gibbon

[elloco999]

I'm with UnlikelyGibbon on this.

Yes, you should be able to get burned by a fire, but not incinerated in seconds. This should actually also be dependent on the clothes you're wearing. I should think those deerskin boots take a while to burn through to the point the feet inside them get burned.

But aside from a fire burning you when you accidentally step in it, I still find it strange that one would start a fire while standing in it. But if this is supposed to be a feature, at least let me see my feet so I can determine whether they are too close to the fire or not!

But even then, when it is pitch black you can't see anything. And still I think I would be able to determine that I'm building my fire too close to my feet by the sense of touch. And by subconsiously knowing where your hands are in relation to your body. Try it, close your eyes, squat down and pretend you're lighting a fire. You'll be able to tell you're hands are near your feet or further out even though you can't see them.

These senses I've got in RL will help me not to set myself on fire, but in TLD we don't have these senses to help us determine we're doing something stupid. Don't want to do hand holding by preventing us to do stupid things, fine. But don't twist our hand on our backs either by not giving us a way to determine if something is stupid or not.

[TLDFAN]

I'm with UnlikelyGibbon on this.

Yes, you should be able to get burned by a fire, but not incinerated in seconds. This should actually also be dependent on the clothes you're wearing. I should think those deerskin boots take a while to burn through to the point the feet inside them get burned.

But aside from a fire burning you when you accidentally step in it, I still find it strange that one would start a fire while standing in it. But if this is supposed to be a feature, at least let me see my feet so I can determine whether they are too close to the fire or not!

But even then, when it is pitch black you can't see anything. And still I think I would be able to determine that I'm building my fire too close to my feet by the sense of touch. And by subconsiously knowing where your hands are in relation to your body. Try it, close your eyes, squat down and pretend you're lighting a fire. You'll be able to tell you're hands are near your feet or further out even though you can't see them.

These senses I've got in RL will help me not to set myself on fire, but in TLD we don't have these senses to help us determine we're doing something stupid. Don't want to do hand holding by preventing us to do stupid things, fine. But don't twist our hand on our backs either by not giving us a way to determine if something is stupid or not.

I'm just trying to remove the frustration of -stupid deaths or injuries due to interface issues. In a game of survival and thinking to outwit and outlive being unable to stop yourself from self immolation in this way will turn players off. I am a dedicated fan but it turns me off. I don't want to take away anybody's ability to walk into a fire and die that way, but instant death or injury because you can't determine placement at night is silly.

P.S. you can walk barefoot on fire for a few seconds due to leidenfrost effect without dying or sustaining injury. I know I've done it myself. Sustained standing in fire, no, sustaining burns yeah probably. If you are wearing shoes or boots and you step in a fire, that's bad but it wont be lethal, and it wont be injurious unless you have a hole in the shoe or boot. Especially if you are stepping right back on snow or water. Nuff Said

[UnlikelyGibbon]

I'm just trying to remove the frustration of -stupid deaths or injuries due to interface issues. In a game of survival and thinking to outwit and outlive being unable to stop yourself from self immolation in this way will turn players off. I am a dedicated fan but it turns me off. I don't want to take away anybody's ability to walk into a fire and die that way, but instant death or injury because you can't determine placement at night is silly.

P.S. you can walk barefoot on fire for a few seconds due to leidenfrost effect without dying or sustaining injury. I know I've done it myself. Sustained standing in fire, no, sustaining burns yeah probably. If you are wearing shoes or boots and you step in a fire, that's bad but it wont be lethal, and it wont be injurious unless you have a hole in the shoe or boot. Especially if you are stepping right back on snow or water. Nuff Said

TLDFAN,

Fundamentally, I fully agree with you. I don't think that all danger from fire should be removed, but rather there should be some way to do one or both of the following things:

1. Interrupt the fire-starting process.

2. Be given some visual and/or auditory and/or other contextual clue when you are building a fire too close to yourself, and also be given at least some opportunity to move away. As you point out, a person who gets too close to a fire in real life will sustain no or very little damage if they immediately move away from the fire--and that damage would be to clothing first, before actually burning skin.

Furthermore, as you and elloco suggested, the type and quality of garments you're wearing should also be taken into account before any type of burn injury is determined by the game. I've found leather boots to be pretty sturdy and have never seen them get burned or even noticeably damaged unless they were in a fire for a longer amount of time--and, when wearing leather boots, I've never had my skin burned at all after having my foot very briefly in a fire.

Then again, on a backpacking trip in the late '80s, I once stretched an arm over a fire (it may have been a backpacking stove, I don't recall for certain) very, very briefly and the thankfully baggy long sleeve of my polypro/synthetic shirt immediately burned--more accurately, it melted!--and, as I mentioned before, I was very lucky to have not been injured that time.

Anyway, I think that your and elloco's ideas about how clothing type/quality should be taken into account should be given strong consideration by the devs--those are great ideas!

Regards,

--Gibbon

[TLDFAN]

A fire just getting started in a storm would be much cooler and struggling to survive and not have the same heat built up from an ongoing self-sustaining reaction as a fire burning for hours. So my point aside from the stupidity of the event even being possible when looked at from the perspective of benefit to the player, I also agree with you and everybody else that thinks it should be possible to end your game by burning to death or simply come under injury by being careless during normal fire maintaining purposes. I think that is really cool actually and yes burns are a real danger while camping. Falling into a fire while drunk can be lethal. As for standing ontop of a firepit and lighting up a fire in the dead of night while also bending down and using matches to ignite it, I don't even think it is possible for you a person to physically reach.

Long and short, needs to be tweaked. I favor quick and dirty on this solution.

[eberg]

I don't think it is remotely realistic that you can spend ten minutes carefully tending a fire and not notice that you are standing in it and automatically move back.

Except I've seen someone let their boots burn through to their socks because they didn't realize they were in the fire.

Now it obviously isn't the same situation, but I'm just saying I wouldn't say it's completely out of the realm of possibilities.

But we aren't talking about walking up to a fire and not noticing you are too close to get singed. This is about being bent over a pile of wood and tinder with matches, trying to get it to light and stay lit. This is a process that takes time and effort and you can't do it unless you know where you are relative to what you are doing. Matches are very short. It also takes time to get going, giving you ample opportunity to move back as it starts to catch.

I would, however, think it more realistic when you are using accelerant. Dousing a pile of wood with kerosene and tossing a match on it is quite capable of getting you in trouble if you are too close.

[slyreaper]

It still would be handholding imo as well if the devs added in something that would prevent us from starting a fire under our feet. I agree with the devs in the other thread in the sense that we should have the option of cancelling the action but you should be able to start the fire under your feet sure, why not?

Its unrealistic to start a fire under your feat.....

Go outside right now, Build a teepee fire base, stand on top and try to light it. Probably cant be done.

Lets think of things logically instead of just saying its a game sure you can do that !

I was so mad the first time this happened. The only place it would let me place the fire logs was really close to me. once the fire was lit i was at 13%

[FoneBoneJay]

It still would be handholding imo as well if the devs added in something that would prevent us from starting a fire under our feet. I agree with the devs in the other thread in the sense that we should have the option of cancelling the action but you should be able to start the fire under your feet sure, why not?

Its unrealistic to start a fire under your feat.....

Go outside right now, Build a teepee fire base, stand on top and try to light it. Probably cant be done.

Lets think of things logically instead of just saying its a game sure you can do that !

I was so mad the first time this happened. The only place it would let me place the fire logs was really close to me. once the fire was lit i was at 13%

Was trying to stop other players from going through the same frustration and saying f*** this game. What a stupid design decision. Alpha is where this kind of thing is supposed to get flushed in my opinion.

[elloco999]

Just a little FYI: you can cancel lighting a fire. Just press Esc. You will loose the match and tinder plug, but not the wood.