SPOILER, DO NOT READ! Three gamebreaking issues

[druffzilla]

Dear Hinterland devs, you do awesome work and i really enjoy your game so this is just meant to be constructive critique.

Object degradation

Objects start to degrade once you find them, this is really gamebreaking because its causing people to not loot certain things like matches, which last about 200-300 days if stored in a container, but forever if not picked up, I dont want to play a game where survival is about knowing how to abuse the game mechanics the best...

My suggestion would be to let objects degrade right away, all of them, this would be a lot more realistic, matches inside cars would degrade faster then matches in a drawer in an isolated house.

One or two years into the apocalypse you would not find any fresh food anymore, chocolate bars would all be spoiled, basically only tin food would be edible. Finding cooked venison in a oven which is at 100% would not be possible anymore...

I think this would add more depth to the atmosphere and would certainly make the game more enjoyable if its not so easy to abuse its mechanics.

Savegame abuse

The game saves very little times, on pc you can even copy your savegame and save it forever, if you go for a scavenging trip and you get lost, just quit the game and reload and youre back at where you came from, if a wolf is attacking you just press esc before it reaches you and reload and you know which route not to go...

I see that the game is still in alpha, and savegame saving might be necessary for certain people, but in the future this has to be changed.

I know you can get stuck sometimes and the only way out is reloading the game, but saving the game every 25m walked or something would make it a lot harder to abuse the savegames if you get lost in a snowstorm or thick fog.

Compass

A compass has been discussed before and it appears that you dont want to have such a thing added and it would probably not function anyways due to the geomagnetic storm.

If you just drop an item just like a .303 round, the tip will always point which I assume is north, that even works with a stick or any other item, please fix that too.

PS.: The waterfall in Mystery Lake, above Nameless Pond is the only frozen waterfall in the game, i guess this is not meant to be.

[Scyzara]

Starvation-hibernation and shooting bears (or wolves) through campfires might be two more candidates for your list.

[druffzilla]

Starvation-hibernation and shooting bears (or wolves) through campfires might be two more candidates for your list.

good point, the hibernation is also somewhat gamebreaking!

about the fire, well I dont really know what you mean other then the wolf standing absolutely still?

[Scyzara]

Just build a campfire between yourself and a bear, aim carefully and shoot it between the eyes. I promise you'll know why I consider this an issue afterwards.

[Spottdrossel]

Savegame abuse

The game saves very little times, on pc you can even copy your savegame and save it forever, if you go for a scavenging trip and you get lost, just quit the game and reload and youre back at where you came from, if a wolf is attacking you just press esc before it reaches you and reload and you know which route not to go...

I see that the game is still in alpha, and savegame saving might be necessary for certain people, but in the future this has to be changed.

I know you can get stuck sometimes and the only way out is reloading the game, but saving the game every 25m walked or something would make it a lot harder to abuse the savegames if you get lost in a snowstorm or thick fog.

I have mentioned exactly this weakness of the current save system several times already and the response is usually that it increases the pressure on the player and is supposed to keep you on your toes (e.g. here)

However I just feel the same as you: It actually encourages trial-and-error because it allows you to go back in time without consequences.

TLD has constantly developed into the same direction for quite some time now (more "action", less "sense") and I don't think there's any way to turn it around again. I guess there are only 2 more major updates before the release of story mode (one at the end of October, one early/mid December).

Extending forging and adding NPCs to the sandbox has already been confirmed, so I just don't see any room for larger changes to existing mechanics.

[madrepityu]

TLD has constantly developed into the same direction for quite some time now (more "action", less "sense") and I don't think there's any way to turn it around again. I guess there are only 2 more major updates before the release of story mode (one at the end of October, one early/mid December).

Extending forging and adding NPCs to the sandbox has already been confirmed, so I just don't see any room for larger changes to existing mechanics.

True! I think the devs sacrificed the game on the altar of income. Since there's an xbox version it's constantly lost from it's value, imho.

[ChillPlayer]

All three points are old news and well known since I play the game, don't know why there needs to be yet another thread about it.

Generally speaking: what's up with all the hostility towards the devs I see in so many recent threads mainly from fresh players? I kindly ask you to get off their backs, they are doing a fantastic job and working very hard to keep their promised launch day and they take your comments seriously, unfortunately, because such hostility spoils the fun for every dev. This game is ALPHA, as in far from finished and many things will change, let alone that sandbox is and always was a playground for the devs to figure out how to implement things into the final game. If you can't live with that you shouldn't have signed up for an alpha version but waited until final release.

But the truth of the matter is that the game is very playable now and gave many players hundreds of enjoyable game hours for barely 20 bucks and if you fail to appreciate this, go on and pay another 50 bucks for the next EA title which you will throw in the corner after playing it through in 10 hours.

There's a difference between constructive feedback (which is completely lacking in this and many threads) and pure ranting (which is what I'm doing right now) and it's just not fair to constantly hammer down on the devs hard work. Also, using the search function is really not very difficult, try it out before creating the next "this needs to be fixed" thread for Fluffys sake...

[Patrick Carlson]

TLD has constantly developed into the same direction for quite some time now (more "action", less "sense") and I don't think there's any way to turn it around again. I guess there are only 2 more major updates before the release of story mode (one at the end of October, one early/mid December).

Extending forging and adding NPCs to the sandbox has already been confirmed, so I just don't see any room for larger changes to existing mechanics.

True! I think the devs sacrificed the game on the altar of income. Since there's an xbox version it's constantly lost from it's value, imho.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but I can say that we've certainly not sacrificed anything on any kind of altar. As we've said constantly here, the game as it is right now is a snapshot of a moment in time. Certainly parts of it will continue to evolve, or simply "change" if you prefer that way of thinking about it. I'd invite you to stick around see where it goes.

[Patrick Carlson]

Dear Hinterland devs, you do awesome work and i really enjoy your game so this is just meant to be constructive critique.

Savegame abuse

The game saves very little times, on pc you can even copy your savegame and save it forever, if you go for a scavenging trip and you get lost, just quit the game and reload and youre back at where you came from, if a wolf is attacking you just press esc before it reaches you and reload and you know which route not to go...

I see that the game is still in alpha, and savegame saving might be necessary for certain people, but in the future this has to be changed.

I know you can get stuck sometimes and the only way out is reloading the game, but saving the game every 25m walked or something would make it a lot harder to abuse the savegames if you get lost in a snowstorm or thick fog.

Also wanted to leave another message here for druffzilla: Thanks for spending the time to work through your thoughts on the game and share them with us. I did have a follow-up question: Are you asking for a sandbox mode where the game constantly saves itself? As in every 25m? Just want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting. Thanks!

[druffzilla]

All three points are old news and well known since I play the game, don't know why there needs to be yet another thread about it.

...

There's a difference between constructive feedback (which is completely lacking in this and many threads) and pure ranting (which is what I'm doing right now) and it's just not fair to constantly hammer down on the devs hard work. Also, using the search function is really not very difficult, try it out before creating the next "this needs to be fixed" thread for Fluffys sake...

I know some of these points came up before but I did not find any thread with a statement from Hinterland that they are working on a change or want to keep things as they are so I thought creating another thread with the three points I consider to be extremely gamebreaking is needed.

I tried to be constructive and did not mean to create a thread where people simply complain and rant...

Also wanted to leave another message here for druffzilla: Thanks for spending the time to work through your thoughts on the game and share them with us. I did have a follow-up question: Are you asking for a sandbox mode where the game constantly saves itself? As in every 25m? Just want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting. Thanks!

Yes, I am talking about the sandbox mode of course, and yes, basically Im asking for constant saving but I do not know the exact possibilities, if the game would save every 25 or 50 meters walked, every time you harvest anything, every time you exit a house and every time a wolf/bear gets triggered would make it almost impossible to abuse the system like it is now. It would probably cause little lags sometimes, but at least saving the game every time you switch into the menus/inventory or the screen where your performing a time consuming action such as harvesting something or breaking a branch should be possible.

Thanks for caring and I hope you and your colleagues will find suitable solutions.

[Spottdrossel]

All three points are old news and well known since I play the game, don't know why there needs to be yet another thread about it.

Generally speaking: what's up with all the hostility towards the devs I see in so many recent threads mainly from fresh players? I kindly ask you to get off their backs, they are doing a fantastic job and working very hard to keep their promised launch day and they take your comments seriously, unfortunately, because such hostility spoils the fun for every dev. This game is ALPHA, as in far from finished and many things will change, let alone that sandbox is and always was a playground for the devs to figure out how to implement things into the final game. If you can't live with that you shouldn't have signed up for an alpha version but waited until final release.

But the truth of the matter is that the game is very playable now and gave many players hundreds of enjoyable game hours for barely 20 bucks and if you fail to appreciate this, go on and pay another 50 bucks for the next EA title which you will throw in the corner after playing it through in 10 hours.

There's a difference between constructive feedback (which is completely lacking in this and many threads) and pure ranting (which is what I'm doing right now) and it's just not fair to constantly hammer down on the devs hard work. Also, using the search function is really not very difficult, try it out before creating the next "this needs to be fixed" thread for Fluffys sake...

You seem to be taking this rather personally, even though nothing said was directed at you (you aren't one of the Hinterland team, are you?) and I don't quite understand that.

I mean, if you sit infront of your computer/laptop/XBox and enjoy TLD, does it really matter what I think about the save system? Or can you only enjoy it when I enjoy it too?

If you really think this is all just ranting and unfounded hostility, why even bother? Why not just discount us as more of the crazy internet people hating on everything?

However there are some points in your argumentation that I'd like to address:

This game is ALPHA, as in far from finished

TLD has been in Steam early access since September 2014 and is supposed to reach full release by the end of this year. That means about 13 of 15 months of early access have passed. If it is still "far from finished" now the deadline won't hold.

But the truth of the matter is that the game is very playable now and gave many players hundreds of enjoyable game hours for barely 20 bucks and if you fail to appreciate this, go on and pay another 50 bucks for the next EA title which you will throw in the corner after playing it through in 10 hours.

You are correct, I have around 200 hours on my Steam profile for TLD and that's a pretty good amount of time. I have games with less hours, which cost more, but also games that cost less and have more hours.

However I don't think that's really a relevant metric. Is a free browser game really better because it doesn't cost anything? After all just one minute for 0 dollars is more "bang for your buck" than 200 hours for 20.

I have also never spent 50 dollars on any early access title and I'm pretty sure that this isn't the only other alternative I have.

But I am sure that I won't get another early access title after TLD. Not because Hinterland has ruined my life by taking my 20 dollars and not "keeping their promises", but because I don't think this really works.

Products are always described using broad terms and then it turns out that those terms are interpreted rather strangely from my point of view:

• The "thoughtful survival experience" feels rushed instead of thoughtful because everything is artificially sped up: don't stand in the wind - your clothes will ruin, don't stand around - you're wasting daylight, don't touch those matches - you're wasting their shelf life, don't be awake - you're wasting calories
• the "difficult decisions" are sorely missing, because almost every item has only one true purpose, there are no alternative strategies, only very few options which are easily ordered by effectiveness
• "no zombies" is achieved by having wolves that mimic every single aspect of them (attack on sight, infinite respawn, very simple, very predictable and easily exploited) except the looks.

But again you are right: Those are things that I could have known, because those things happen everywhere. ("Well we never said it would be this, we only said that that we would do it, not exactly how, so we still delivered." Once you're in this kind of communication with your customers you know you're losing trust.)

it's just not fair to constantly hammer down on the devs hard work.

Every time someone posts anything about something they don't like you have someone else posting "but they are working so hard" as reply.

Is that really relevant?

Would you buy a product if the people who made it worked "really, really hard"? Even if you don't like it or don't even need it?

Would you go to see a movie, find it not really good at all and then go on to rate it 9/10 because they "probably did their best"?

Do you actually think I'm criticising their efforts instead of the result?

Do you really believe I just want them to work harder, but am secretly satisfied with the product?

[Scyzara]

This game is ALPHA, as in far from finished and many things will change, let alone that sandbox is and always was a playground for the devs to figure out how to implement things into the final game. If you can't live with that you shouldn't have signed up for an alpha version but waited until final release.

My actual problem is rather the other way around: I liked the TLD version when I bought this game (V.154 or something) much better than the current one. Come on Chill, you know yourself that V.200 Voyageur was about three times more exciting and challenging than the current Stalker.

As I've said before in other threads, I don't want to imply that the Devs don't work hard or anything. I'm really happy about the thousand little improvements regarding the graphics, lighting (especially at night), the User interface, animal model and AI, running and foraging mechanics, campfire mechanics (temperature & disappearance of burnt-out campfires) and countless more things. The game certainly got better regarding all of these thousands of tiny aspects and I thank the Devs for that wholeheartedly.

My personal problem is just that all these great improvements get totally spoiled for me because the overall game has gotten so extremely easy (tools and weapons everywhere, easy prey everywhere, ressources everywhere and even the weather is predictable now) and mid-game has thus gotten so incredibly long that no-one can stand to ever complete a game any more.

When I bought TLD, I honestly thought that it was one of those games that were meant to be difficult and force you to make hard decisions. (E.g. "Do I use my one piece of scrap metal to repair my axe or should I better craft a fishing hook?"). I bought TLD because I wanted a challenging yet not action-based game and its reviews and game description back then implied that TLD was meant to be exactly that.

But ever since V.233 (bow introduction update), I have the very strong feeling that either TLD's target audience or the sandbox's purpose (or both) have changed. Because it was exactly then when this whole "let's introduce crafting to replace formerly finite items" and "resources need to be abundant" philosophy started. Both of which totally work against a challenging game where you have to make hard decisions how to use your (few and limited) resources.

This post is not meant to be ranting, but feedback that TLD has developed into a direction that I personally don't approve (and wasn't able to predict at the time when I bought this game).

I don't care about the 20€ I've paid, I'm just sad that my (presumably too high) hopes for a challenging yet thoughtful game were deceived. Hell, I would gladly pay another 100€ should the Devs offer me a more challenging version of the current TLD (Stalker-plus mode or whatever). That's not a joke but an actual offer. I can't tell how many other players would be willing to pay for such a mode, but I for one definitely would.

[ChillPlayer]

Scy I often comment your posts and totally agree with everything you say, my "general" post wasn't aimed at you, you are disappointed as much as I am and you see on steam how seldom I play TLD nowadays for exactly the same reasons you've pointed out. But I haven't yet read a single line from you where you've got insulting towards the devs, saying they are praying to an altar, are stonewalling or just willingly ignoring you. That's the difference, where you and I are coming from is experience of the good old days and the fear that those times are over, but still with much appreciation for hinterland and all they've accomplished.

I'm no longer very active on the forums either but it kind of hurts to see all those threads I've mentioned popping up whenever I skim through it and then I ask myself what the heck is going on, is hinterland really turning for the worse? But then I read what and from whom it's written and recognize that those people don't even find it necessary to use the search function, fail to recognize that this game is a work in progress and what hinterland has already accomplished.

All they see is that the devs are actually communicating with us and so they take this as an invitation to unload their worst at the devs as if they'd be entitled (gosh I hate this word) to be heard, leaving all manners aside where one has to wonder why bethany or patrick even bother to answer. "Hey hinterland, I gave you my money and now you better listen to all the great ideas I have you would never come up with because I have a better picture of what the game's supposed to be than you do" - that's what I'm reading into lots of posts here and that's why I kinda hijacked this thread to make a general statement based on my observations and opinion (sorry druffzilla for this btw, but as mentioned, these topics have already been discussed and so I hope not much is lost by derailing this thread a bit ).

And no Spottdrossel, I am not affiliated with hinterland other than I like their game very much and as such still care about it. Maybe read these words bethany has posted in a different thread and you might get a glimpse where I'm comming from:

but I ask that you remember the team is pouring their hearts into this game, and that they love and appreciate the community more than almost any other developer I've seen. I have never been part of a group with so many hard workers, and I really feel that it is a disservice to them if I do not come to their defense

I think I've said all I wanted to say, after all I'm not anyones parent here (I think ) and it's not my job to teach you manners or how to correspond with other people that have their lifes work open for you to critizise. If anything, before posting the next time how ignorant the devs are, just read bethanys words I quoted again.

Okay, and now go hunt some Fluffy and have a nice sunday

[Boss Llama]

Object degradation:

While I generally agree with you about the idea that degradation should start universally, not just when looted, I don't mind the current system too much, since it somewhat makes up for the insanely high degradation rates that currently exist. Certainly fresh foods will rapidly decay, but sealed canned goods in a cold-storage environment? Matches that are kept dry in their box in a metal drawer? Energy bars in their packaging? Those are just silly. Basically, I would agree with your suggestion only on the condition that the decay rates of every item were re-examined and adjusted.

Save games:

To be honest, having things save every 25m sounds much more exploitable than the current system. It basically gives an undo button for any action, that immediately pulls you back to just before you did it. At least with the current system, if a person wants to revert to a save, they're liable to lose 10-30 minutes of time and effort, and that's a heck of a lot more dissuasive than losing a couple seconds.

Now, I don't care either way on this one, since I'm not so obsessive about perfection that I feel the need to reload every time something doesn't go my way, but something much more bothers me about your request here - especially in terms of claiming it's "game breaking." If this were a competitive game, or a multiplayer game, or if the actions of other people could affect you in any way, then I could see caring about how other people use the save feature. If a person reloading a previous save gave them better equipment, higher rank, or some kind of status symbol that gave them privileges here or elsewhere, I could understand caring about how other people use the save feature. What I don't get is why this is an issue in a single player game with no online capabilities, no plans for online capabilities, and where it has no connection to anything that can possibly affect another person?

Also, regarding PCs... so? The only way you can keep a person from being able to copy their saved game is by hosting it on a server and making this an always online game. That's completely contrary to the design of the game, and you can't lock down a person's PC against them. Again, this falls in to the category above of "it doesn't affect you in any way, how is it harmful or game breaking that somebody can potentially do it?"

North-point objects:

Agreed, and I believe this has already been announced as being worked on to "fix" it, so to speak. Not something game breaking or especially noteworthy in my opinion, but would be nifty to have random piles.

In general, my biggest concern here (and I think why you're getting some hostile reactions, as opposed to simply taking it as "constructive criticism" or suggestions), is that it seems you are very upset about things that other people might potentially do in their own personal games, which have absolutely zero affect on you. The second two in particular are things that you simply don't do if you don't want to. I've never reloaded a save to avoid a situation, and I've never dropped an item to tell me direction. None of this is game breaking, all of it is well known, and the overly dramatic "SPOILER, DO NOT READ" is basically trolling for responses in true BuzzFeed headline style. If you hold the principles you argue for, it shouldn't be hard to play by them, and what other people do isn't of any concern.

[druffzilla]

You are right, Boss Llama, I should not really care if other people do it, but due to the leaderboard, although Im certainly not looking to ever play a game lasting several thousand days, there is some sort of competition. And Its simply not possible to go beyond 300-500 days without exploiting one or the other mechanic. Sadly, I have caught myself simply reloading the game if I went out into a blizzard and didnt feel like bothering with it or reload after searching a house so I can leave the containers with the matches untouched... In a game which takes everything from you when you die, which is a big part of the fun of the game, its just really hard for me to play "less efficient" when I know there is a more efficient way, that is somewhat ruining the game for me. Thats why I put the DO NOT READ! disclaimer there, probably its more tempting to click on it than actually preventing people to do, but I was hoping those people who want to get the vanilla experience from the game who do not want to get spoilered in their playstyles would not do so. Its just that since I know about these game mechanics, its really less fun to play because even if I dont abuse them, I know I could have done better(more efficient), and that simply makes me a little bit mad...

[brun]

About saving.

Any savegame mechanic is kind of an abuse to the permadeath concept. Just don't hit escape!

[LinieBurrito456]

About saving.

Any savegame mechanic is kind of an abuse to the permadeath concept. Just don't hit escape!

That was my first thought when I read the thread.

It is up to each themselves left as he wants to play .

[druffzilla]

About saving.

Any savegame mechanic is kind of an abuse to the permadeath concept. Just don't hit escape!

That was my first thought when I read the thread.

It is up to each themselves left as he wants to play .

Very true, as I said in my first post, I dont want to play a game where survival is about abusing the mechanics, but if matches degrade after ~150 days after picking up I feel like I have no other chance then reloading and searching the house a second time, this time without picking the matches up considering long term survival, so the one thing enforces the other.

If the game would save constantly, that would not necessarily make it better because then people would start not to search containers at all and wait until their current resources are minimizing.

In reality you would of course gather as much stuff as you can and store it in the best location possible because matches inside a fishing or hunting hut might very well degrade in the rate they do currently ingame.

So to me this game was always about the atmosphere and immersion, and leaving matches untouched to preserve them is certainly messing with it.

[Spottdrossel]

About saving.

Any savegame mechanic is kind of an abuse to the permadeath concept. Just don't hit escape!

I'm not sure I understand what that is supposed to mean but let's bring up an example:

Look at "FTL: Faster than Light".

A "little" rogue-like game with pixel-graphics that has the most simplistic savegame system yet still provides permadaeath and no way of exploiting this system unless you use external tools.

It saves your current progress whenever you quit and also on certain occasion like fights, losing people etc.

There is only one save slot and when you die the saved game is erased.

Now just translate that to TLD:

You save whenever the current system saves, the save game is erased when you die and you also save on quit.

Please explain how this is an abuse of the permadeath concept.

[brun]

What I meant was that no matter when and how the game saves, in any game, it's exploitable. Even in this game you can of course just copy the savegame manually to avoid permadeath. Ultimately the game wouldn't save at all I guess, if we were to go all in simulation wise? But that would make the game almost unplayable for the vast majority of gamers out there, including myself. When choosing to have permadeath in your game, you emphasize strongly on risks. Every choice you make is very important because it can't be reversed. Or that's the idea I guess?

[ChillPlayer]

The game saves at a lot of instances, lately even when you fall down the damm in Carter's River. But this does not prevent you from copying the save folder away and bring it back when you die. The only way to implement a 100% sure permadeath with no way to cheat it, like D3s hardcore mode, is to save online on a server - which hopefully no one wants, just read about how many D3 players lost their character because of connection issues...

In the end you are betraying only yourself if you choose to copy save your way around your deaths, you might brag that you've survived hundreds of days but deep inside you'd know that you've failed.

[Spottdrossel]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what I read is that because a player could always manipulate the files directly (something that can be detected even when offline) und exploit that way, we can also have a save system that has exploiting directly built into it by allowing one to quit without saving.

Oh how I love those "every system is exploitable" explanations.

You sound competent while not actually explaining anything.

You can even defend inferior solutions because the better ones aren't perfect either.

[AstroFerret]

I agree that the item degrading mechanic needs fixed but the other two issues....

Correct me if I am wrong, but it's not game breaking if you abuse the mechanics in the game, that is simply operator abuse and thus simply ruining the game for yourselves if you use a camp fire to stop animals so you can shoot them, or revert to a saved game save. I understand that the item degrading mechanic is silly and can be improved on heavily, but the other issue are simply people finding ways to make the game easier for themselves which is not the fault of the game/devs but user/operator abuse. Just saying.

I'm not trying to be mean, and I'm no saint either. I use my own little toy to try and break the game as much as possible to hunt for bugs, study animal behavior, or modify a few things. But when I play I play it right and don't abuse the game. It's operator choice of course. You can choose to ignore and not use loopholes in the mechanics to gain the advantage, or you can. Just don't blame the game saying it's gamebreaking when you're the one utilizing the loopholes.

[brun]

Oh how I love those "every system is exploitable" explanations.

You sound competent while not actually explaining anything.

You can even defend inferior solutions because the better ones aren't perfect either.

Lol, that was aimed at me I guess ;-) I can assure you though, I am very competent!

I also agree on the items degrading issue. I think it would make sense to make all items degrade immediately after spawn. But the main reason I don't pick stuff up, is because there's so much of everything.

[SteveP]

Another "exploit" is to remove and reinstall the game. This clears out any static data preserved by the game. I have the feeling as I advance through the game, that it seems to get harder with each new life and loot gets more scarce. I think this might be a heuristic designed to keep the game challenging (my suggestion somewhere else) The rules for the forum state we cannot discuss exploits but on the other hand, during Alpha we should at least warn the devs of any bugs that are exploitable so they can be fixed. There is already a feature to deal with the copy save data exploit so the leader board is not compromised.