Consistent Hunting Mechanics

[cekivi]

OK. My original idea was more complex than others would like (personally, I'd enjoy a hunting simulator ). I've included the original post below. Instead, here is a new proposal without as much depth but still with the goal of making hunting more consistent.

1. Circular reticle for bow to serve as an aiming assist
   
2. No blood for non-fatal shots (e.g. paws, legs, head with bow). Fatal shots always bleed.
   
3. Gun can give instant kills, bow cannot.
   
4. Blood more persistent in environment except in heavy snow.
   
5. Once a wounded animal stops running it expires quickly. No more uncertainty about whether it will heal or start running again.

This will still address the core issues I have (inconsistent hunting outcomes) while hopefully avoiding making the game a "hunting simulator".

---

Original Post:

I presently find hunting in the game to be very frustrating. Which probably explains why I started the post "Hunting Very Frustrating" in the Alpha feedback forum. It seems like several other players are having the same problem. My wish list for how hunting can be "fixed" is very simple: reliable, consistent mechanics so that we, the players, know what to expect and don't get surprised (or in my case frustrated).

I would propose the following changes the hunting mechanic in order to obtain this consistency:

1. Hitting bone, paw, etc. will scare animals (may anger bears) but will NOT cause bleeding/death. This includes heads and legs of deer and bears. This change is necessary because right now sometimes fatal shots don't bleed. No blood should always mean a missed shot or a non-fatal shot.
   
2. Hitting the guts will cause the animal to run very quickly and, if chased, will continue to run. Animal will eventually expire but it will take roughly 2-3 in game hours (longer if it sees you in the first 2 hours because it will run farther). Animal leaves some blood but blood is mixed with green bile from the guts.
   
3. Hitting the lungs will cause an animal to run but it will tire and expire within 15-30 in game minutes. There will be lots of bright red blood.
   
4. Hitting the heart will cause an animal to run but it will expire within 5 in game minutes. Lots of blood.
   
5. Gun only: hitting the heart and lungs with a gun is an "instant" kill (animal expires within 1 minute)
   
6. Only gut shots will cause an animal to continue running/regain stamina if surprised while tracking or shot again in the guts/non-lethal area.
   
7. Blood/tracks from wounded animals still fade but are more persistent to allow players to wait for the animal to expire and facilitate long-distance tracking. Blizzards and heavy snow still cause tracks/blood to fade faster.
   
8. Open circle reticle for the bow (more accurate on lower difficulties) to give players who have not mastered the bow a frame of reference for aiming. Open circle is your "likely" hit area. Can be toggled on and off as per player preference.

Like I said in my original post, these changes will give the player immediate feedback on state of the animal (amount and colour of blood), encourage ethical hunting (less likely to take bad shots in poor weather), reward players who are good shots, makes the gun useful again (cannot ever get instant kills with bow), animals will behave more realistically, and, since the "rules" are now consistent, it will avoid player frustration and odd animal behavior. In short, I don't want hunting to be "easier" or "harder", I just want it to be consistent with known mechanics and predictable outcomes.

[DarkUncleBoh]

-1

While I do agree that there are some mechanics with hunting that could be a bit better fine tuned, I admit my initial reaction to most of this post is "TLD is not a hunting simulator, nor a game about hunting".

There are a number of different mechanics in the game that are "simplified" and/or "less realistic representations" that are the way they are for gameplay purposes - and for me at least, I've always felt that the current implementation of hunting fits in fairly well with the general feel and (restricted) level of realism in the rest of the game.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course - but for my own, I'm not in favor of adding this level of nuance and detail to hunting... partly because I don't feel that it would be particularly beneficial to the survival gameplay, and partly because there are other things that I would much much rather see developer time focused on.

[danicusrex]

-1.

Yeah, this is a little TOO elaborate. I'd simply like the blood to be a bit more obvious in the snow. It might be my TV, but I have a hell of a time following the blood trail.

[alunasmoon]

-1 ya hunting is a secondary thing in the game but i agree the blood trails should be easier to follow

[cekivi]

Darn. Well, not every idea is a winner

At least my point about more persistent blood gained some traction.

[DarkUncleBoh]

Yeah, everyone has different ideas of what would make the game the best for them -- unfortunately, not all of our ideas work for everyone else. No harm in sharing your thoughts though!

As for the blood, yeah I also agree that it needs some work - should be more persistent and easier to track (also had the thought that it should be related to how badly injured the animal is - worse they are hurt, the more blood there is to track -- which from a gameplay standpoint would also provide a way to see "well did I hurt them badly enough that it shouldn't be that bad of a chase... or only graze them such that I'd be chasing them all day long?")

[cekivi]

That was one of my ideas in my original post... although I may have gone overboard in my desire of realism.

The small blood spots are actually fine. Depending on where and with what the deer was hit with dime sized spots spaced a few feet apart are not uncommon. In real life though, as long as the weather's good, blood spots will stay for hours.

Too bad you can't find a pet dog. It'd be a brutal struggle to protect them from wolf attacks but it'd make tracking a heck of a lot easier

[danicusrex]

My only complaint with the new pitch is that I've seen first-hand that bows can kill with a single well-placed shot. My Stepdad hunts with a recurve, and he put down a full-sized buck with one arrow. the shot managed to miss the ribs entirely, threading between them and pretty much instantly killing the deer.

So not allowing the bow to kill right away isn't strictly realistic.

[DarkUncleBoh]

Yeah, while an arrow might not have the penetrating power of a bullet, if it gets into the right place it a broadhead will do a LOT of damage right away. While most of my bow hunting experience from my younger years was with small game (though larger than what I'd hunt with my slingshot), I was always amazed at the amount of pure damage broadheads could do.

[cekivi]

I fully agree that a recurve bow with stainless steel broadheads wielded by an expert archer can easily take down a deer near instantaneously. My "bows cannot get instant kills" restraint is more from considering that this is a bow made from a bent sapling, held together by animal guts, firing crow feather arrows wielded by someone who, I assume, has seldom if ever used a bow before

It arose more from my interpretation of the character in the game than real life

[danicusrex]

If the character has seldom used a bow... I highly doubt he'd have a wherewithal to craft the bow correctly in the first place, as it is by no means a simple task. Crafting it without causing it to snap the first time the string draws back, for example, requires quite a bit of knowledge.

I'm under the impression that the survivor is quite comfortable in the woods, as he seems to have a lot of skills/ knows how to make quite a number of things your average "non-woodsy" person isn't overly knowledgeable about.

Skinning animals and curing hides, stitching using guts, etc.

[cekivi]

If the character has seldom used a bow... I highly doubt he'd have a wherewithal to craft the bow correctly in the first place, as it is by no means a simple task. Crafting it without causing it to snap the first time the string draws back, for example, requires quite a bit of knowledge.

I'm under the impression that the survivor is quite comfortable in the woods, as he seems to have a lot of skills/ knows how to make quite a number of things your average "non-woodsy" person isn't overly knowledgeable about.

Skinning animals and curing hides, stitching using guts, etc.

True. But you can also pick up most of that stuff from gun hunting as well. As a bush pilot our character likely has survival skills and by virtue of living in Northern Canada probably has experience hunting and fishing as well. Hence the curing hides and enough exposure to these topics to know how to survive. Bow hunting though takes a lot of practice to learn and refine the skills so I always thought of my character as not having the time to learn/practice the bow since they're always flying on jobs.

[Boston123]

I fully agree that a recurve bow with stainless steel broadheads wielded by an expert archer can easily take down a deer near instantaneously. My "bows cannot get instant kills" restraint is more from considering that this is a bow made from a bent sapling, held together by animal guts, firing crow feather arrows wielded by someone who, I assume, has seldom if ever used a bow before

It arose more from my interpretation of the character in the game than real life

In reality, the only real difference between a selfbow and a recurve bow is arrow speed. There can be recurve bows with 30lb weights, and selfbows with 90+ lb weights. It all varies in the construction.

Case in point: I am working on another selfbow, this time a stickbow made from a whole grey birch sapling. It is 54 inches, and will easily pull at least 60 lbs (not done tillering yet).

Oh, and twisted+dried intestines would work fine for bowstrings. So would crow-feathers. Again, case in point: I am making arrows from phragmites reed and seagull feathers. At close (20 meters or so) range, there is little-to-no difference between the commercially bought wooden dowel+ plastic arrows.

The difference lies in the construction, not the materials, 99% of the time. I could make a "reasonable" bow and arrow from every tree we see in-game.

[cekivi]

The difference lies in the construction, not the materials, 99% of the time. I could make a "reasonable" bow and arrow from every tree we see in-game.

Again, I fully agree

My rationale is that the character in the game does not have enough experience to make a bow and arrows with improvised tools to that level of accuracy and lethality. At least that's my head cannon.

[DarkUncleBoh]

My rationale is that the character in the game does not have enough experience to make a bow and arrows with improvised tools to that level of accuracy and lethality. At least that's my head cannon.

In the end it really comes down to where the devs want to draw the line, in the interest of enjoyable gameplay - knowing that all of us are going to have different opinions on where that line should be drawn in any particular instance.

...I mean, I personally find it more believable that a wilderness pilot knows how to make a pretty good bow and arrow with the materials provided, than I do things like tearing apart a storm lantern and then using the scrap metal attained from that to fix an extremely beat up rifle back to pristine condition with nothing but 1kg worth of basic hand tools...

[cekivi]

...I mean, I personally find it more believable that a wilderness pilot knows how to make a pretty good bow and arrow with the materials provided, than I do things like tearing apart a storm lantern and then using the scrap metal attained from that to fix an extremely beat up rifle back to pristine condition with nothing but 1kg worth of basic hand tools...

True

One of my other considerations was game balance. The gun weighs significantly more than the bow and, once a player becomes proficient with the bow, has no reason to use the gun anymore. I thought, in addition to my arguments above, that having the gun as the only weapon that may get instant kills may incentivize players to begin carrying it again.

[Eachna]

OK. My original idea was more complex than others would like (personally, I'd enjoy a hunting simulator ). I've included the original post below. Instead, here is a new proposal without as much depth but still with the goal of making hunting more consistent.

1. Circular reticle for bow to serve as an aiming assist
   
2. No blood for non-fatal shots (e.g. paws, legs, head with bow). Fatal shots always bleed.
   
3. Gun can give instant kills, bow cannot.
   
4. Blood more persistent in environment except in heavy snow.
   
5. Once a wounded animal stops running it expires quickly. No more uncertainty about whether it will heal or start running again.

This will still address the core issues I have (inconsistent hunting outcomes) while hopefully avoiding making the game a "hunting simulator".

I agree with most of these points, other than the bow not being able to insta-kill. Given archery has been made much harder than rifle use to allow players to hone a skill, mastery of that skill should provide a reward.

That being said, I have a bit of a rant about the lack of reticule in archery. To start, I understand that the devs want archery to be more difficult than using a rifle, and being that they're the devs, they get what they want . I already know I should practice. I practiced. And practiced. And practiced. I practiced a lot before I ever tried hunting with the bow, and I practiced more after I had trouble hitting anything. I practiced (and tried to shoot deer) until the game ate 50 arrows, which was all the saplings I had found.

It doesn't matter how much I practice, I can't tell where the center of the screen should be, and without having a clear 'center' marker I can't tell how much I should be adjusting when I miss a shot.

I use a touchpad, and between the lack of reticule, the touchpad's lesser precision compared to a mouse, and the recurring issues with aim/mouse sensitivity archery is useless.

May we please have some sort of reticule on screen? It doesn't have to be a large bulleye-style target. If you just re-enable the white dot when the bow is out and remove the white dot when drawing that would be lovely.

[cowboymrh]

I'm very disappointed with the bow mechanics. I can't hit a darn thing with it. I had a wolf lured in to 6 feet with some bait and my arrow sailed 2 feet over his head!!

"In real life", The bow isn't held out a foot to your right side when you use it!!!

You look right down the shaft of the arrow to aim. What would be so hard for the devs to make the needed changes to do that in TLD????

I know I need to practice, but I don't want to use up all my precious arrows to do so.

The way the bow is set up in the game.....you are totally guessing!

This is my only real complaint about a game I otherwise love!!

[danicusrex]

I'm very disappointed with the bow mechanics. I can't hit a darn thing with it. I had a wolf lured in to 6 feet with some bait and my arrow sailed 2 feet over his head!!

"In real life", The bow isn't held out a foot to your right side when you use it!!!

You look right down the shaft of the arrow to aim. What would be so hard for the devs to make the needed changes to do that in TLD????

I know I need to practice, but I don't want to use up all my precious arrows to do so.

The way the bow is set up in the game.....you are totally guessing!

This is my only real complaint about a game I otherwise love!!

100% agree. If they don't want to add the aiming dot, at least put the point of the arrow closer to the center of the screen so I have SOMETHING to aim with.

https://ajourneytoskyrim.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/5.jpg

[Boston123]

Pretty much.

In real life, you draw either to the side of the mouth, or to the jawbone. Either point will allow you to look down the arrowshaft, over the point, to the target. This is basically the same thing as the "rear sight + front sight + target = sight picture" thing with firearms.

In game, it looks like we are drawing the arrow to the side of the forehead, which is the most nonsensical thing I've ever seen.

[nicko]

huh yeh i thought the same ok the bow has changed lot harder to shoot, ok I have a few spare arrows / arrow heads etc to practice with. then face palm - sorry no more creating arrow heads till you got to dc map either way I just try to adjust best I can with the game flow and see what comes next. This is the fun part for me as we all know this game is still in ALPHA MODE. And we all play it knowing this so the game will no doubt change again and again and again

[Boston123]

Another issue I have with the bow is that it is impossible to actually practice with the thing without damaging your arrows. In real life, arrowshafts made from wood can be rather sturdy. I have personally loosed (headless. Don't want to damage the valuable broadheads!) arrows into trees, boxes filled with sand, and haybales with no damage at all to the arrow.

Really, I wouldn't want to use ANY weapon/tool without at least practicing with it a bit first.

[cekivi]

Another issue I have with the bow is that it is impossible to actually practice with the thing without damaging your arrows. In real life, arrowshafts made from wood can be rather sturdy. I have personally loosed (headless. Don't want to damage the valuable broadheads!) arrows into trees, boxes filled with sand, and haybales with no damage at all to the arrow.

Really, I wouldn't want to use ANY weapon/tool without at least practicing with it a bit first.

True. I can see why they have arrows get damaged in game though. It would be a little over powered if arrows never decayed.

I fully agree with the practice bit. The Long Dark would be much better if it had an optional tutorial. Immersion breaking? Yes, but it would allow for you to actually learn the mechanics in a "safe" environment.

[danicusrex]

Another issue I have with the bow is that it is impossible to actually practice with the thing without damaging your arrows. In real life, arrowshafts made from wood can be rather sturdy. I have personally loosed (headless. Don't want to damage the valuable broadheads!) arrows into trees, boxes filled with sand, and haybales with no damage at all to the arrow.

Really, I wouldn't want to use ANY weapon/tool without at least practicing with it a bit first.

True. I can see why they have arrows get damaged in game though. It would be a little over powered if arrows never decayed.

I fully agree with the practice bit. The Long Dark would be much better if it had an optional tutorial. Immersion breaking? Yes, but it would allow for you to actually learn the mechanics in a "safe" environment.

Maybe only have them degrade if they hit an animal? Shooting into a hay bale in order to get the hang of the bow probably wouldnt damage the arrows too much IRL.

Although I still say the best way to fix the bow problem is to change the way the bow appears on screen, so we can sight down the arrow.