Give feedback to Hinterland

[octavian]

Mr. van Lierop, founder & creative director at Hinterland, said this on Apr 17th, 2014:

"Immersion - such a dangerous word. There's only mechanics and the player choices they enable, and if those choices are interesting It's when they aren't consistent that immersion becomes an issue."

Now, I will not take into consideration the part about immersion, because it's not clear, it can be read a number of ways.

Instead, let's focus precisely on what is. So, what is that which is? Well, there's only game mechanics and the player choices they enable, and if those choices are interesting.

Let's focus on just that.

So, let's start.

Does the current wolf struggle mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current stamina mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current first-aid mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current weather mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes or no. Just quote and answer. I'm really curious to hear what you guys have to say, and I bet the developers are too. So, keep it simple, quote, yes, no.

Or you can simply say, wolf struggle, yes yes, stamina, yes no, and so on, whatever your answers are, I'm just illustrating a way to keep it simple, short, unemotional, and practical.

Edit, added after the fact, part #1:

Do the current ways to avoid a struggle with a wolf enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

[whisperwind777]

Let's focus on just that.

So, let's start.

Does the current wolf struggle mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current stamina mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current first-aid mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current weather mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes. You can choose to tap a botton quickly so you may survive or just watch and die.

Surely do nothing is not really an option so this is not interesting.

No, sprinting is the only activity which requires stamina. Sure you can choose when to sprint, how long to sprint and when to stop. But sprinting does not require calories and does not warm up the body. I now only use it in snowstorm or flee from wolf.

Not very interesting.

Yes, you can choose to use antibiotics, or some tea. Painkillers or some rest. However, they work the same.

Not very interesting.

Not so much. All tinders are the same. It makes no difference whether you start a fire by a mag-lence or a torch since the odds and time are the same. Ever since I got attacked when starting a fire in an outdoor stove, I do not use outdoor stove any more. Fire starting chance is primarily determined by skill not the player's choice.

Not very interesting.

No. In stalker mode the weather changes every 30 minutes. It doesn't matter if you go outdoor sunny or foggy, it can be any weather the next moment.

Not very interesting.

[McGuffin]

Does the current wolf struggle mechanic enable choices?

It miss something. Maybe a stamina mecanism could be added here. (full stamina = attack bonus etc..., which can be tricky, specially if you tried to sprint out before, and used your stamina) Also, the fight looks random, and other random skills in the game have an xp mecanism attached ( fire, repair etc..)

Does the current stamina mechanic enable choices?

If this stands for running, I think it is. However the walk could be a little bit faster, at least when the fatigue is very low.

Does the current first-aid mechanic enable choices?

First aid is kind of magical. just take 2 pills and you are safe.

Most afflictions should take some times to heal (at least in Stalker mode)

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices?

I think it is. Tinders and woods can make a difference in the probability of success (full newspaper is better , sticks are better at start etc...). I think it makes sense. Specially where it's now not possible to cast wood out of nowhere.

Does the current weather mechanic enable choices?

In a gaming POV it's fine, but the weather is kind of not realistic sometimes. Full blue sky -> deadly blizzard in 5 sec, can be quite weird.

having new wood sticks in the wild after a blizzard is kind of cool actually. I wonder if the wood respawn is only attached to wind. It would be a nice touch if it is.

[toebar]

Interesting approach, but I'm not sure it's a fair one.. I don't see choices needing to be directly linked to single mechanics--any one mechanic may not provide much choice, but the combination of various mechanics do. E.g. There may not be much choice in the current wolf-struggle, but once you know that, you will likely take more precautions to avoid a situation where you are at a disadvantage by default-- there are quite a few choices to avoid wolf encounters. (Not saying I endorse the current struggle, just using as an example)

[octavian]

Guys, girls, whatever, please, let's try and stick to the intended format.

Again, please, if you do answer, do it in a yes or no fashion.

Example:

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices? Yes or no.

Are those choices interesting? Yes or no.

If you think this approach is not fair, do not answer. We can talk later, you can PM me, whatever. The approach itself is not occult. Anyone reading it can make their own opinions based on the format and the answers.

Please understand that, if you answer, what matters is your perception. If there is any hope to be objective we should steer clear of giving reasons or making arguments. This is intended to be, simply, a measure of perception.

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices? Yes, or no. I'm not asking you guys to say why you perceive it the way you perceive it, I'm asking a simple question. Nobody can misrepresent or interpret your answers. In that sense, they are objective (even if you are giving a subjective perception) in the sense that two people reading "yes" or "no" understand exactly, literally the same thing. Once we start to use more words, objectivity, this kind I'm talking about, is lost; leads to misrepresentation and interpretation.

Every aspect of the game has already been discussed at length numerous times. This intends to draw a line. Yes, or no.

Also, please do answer both questions for each mechanic, if applicable. If it enables choices please also answer if those choices are interesting, yes or no.

Thanks

[TWM]

Does the current wolf struggle mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

No and therefore: N/A

Does the current stamina mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes and Yes

Does the current first-aid mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

No and therefore: N/A

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes, but no: not all that interesting (it's simply a matter of finding out which is the smartest combination, and about if you want to save your fire striker for later)

[vimrich]

Does the current wolf struggle mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current stamina mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current first-aid mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Does the current weather mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Do the current ways to avoid a struggle with a wolf enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

It's not the mechanics that drive choices. Mechanics are the RESULT of choices.

Wolf - risk fight or go longer way around to avoid, also now run to flee?

Stamina - when do I run? to get out of a storm, just get over that hill a bit quicker, or wait for an attack?

First Aid - do I chance it with stale food? do I go down the steep part and risk a sprain or go the long way around and risk bad weather?

Fire - do I keep going, or stop here where I can make a fire for certain? Stay and maybe starve, go on and maybe get caught outside at night when it's too windy to start fire.

Weather - keep going and risk get hopelessly lost in storm/fog, or stay put where I have relative safety?

Wolf Tactics - trade food for safety (if out of flairs/weapons)?

There are tons of choices. If anything, they might do away with the wolf mechanic completely. Make it like eating or repairing or starting fires, where you just click to start and then sit back and watch and see what the random % left you with. It's essentially that now, but with the click spamming to jar you into the urgency of it.

True games of choice (like chess) involve zero "mechanics" because mechanics make the game about skill not choices. Hunting is a complete skill thing right now, and while sometimes fun, I feel it sort of borders on inappropriate for this game. It's SO hard to aim and get even marginally good with the bow. Do I really want a shooting gallery mini-game type skill to get in the way of my whole rest of the experience?

I know hunting and fighting can be fun though, and no game has to be a 100% choices game. I think they're getting a good mix in there.

Too me, this game needs more openness and randomness to really drive up the choices - random generated worlds, no fixed bunker or item drop locations. THEN the choices would really shine. No place to go to decide whether to move on for another better shelter or stay where you are.

[Scyzara]

Does the current wolf struggle mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

No -> N/A

Does the current stamina mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes, yes

Does the current first-aid mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes (heal over time vs medicine), halfway decent

Does the current fire mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes (Matches/firestriker vs lens; + maybe accelerant), yes

Does the current weather mechanic enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes (planning outdoor activities), halfway decent

Do the current ways to avoid a struggle with a wolf enable choices?

Are those choices interesting?

Yes (distance/flare/decoy), yes

Greetings from the beach!

[bethany]

Interesting approach, but I'm not sure it's a fair one.. I don't see choices needing to be directly linked to single mechanics--any one mechanic may not provide much choice, but the combination of various mechanics do.

I have to agree. I don't believe individual mechanics were the only things necessarily being referenced in the quote you chose, so I'm not sure this is a wholly appropriate way to assess them. That being said, it is one way to get a very specific kind of feedback, so it's still somewhat interesting.

[octavian]

Well this is nice.

Like toebar said, he's not sure this approach is a fair one. So he doesn't know. And like Bethany said, she doesn't believe (...) and is not sure. So she doesn't know either. In other words, subjective and biased.

So why is it that, even after I offer the clarification that if someone does not agree with the methodology they should simply not answer, any possible significance of this topic is minimized by "one way to get a very specific kind of feedback" (which kind, exactly, are we speaking of, since it's very specific?) and dismissed as "somewhat interesting"?

Wouldn't all these subjective impressions skew the results, especially since they are coming from a Hinterland employee?

Why is it that this wasn't said later when this topic naturally died, "somewhat interesting, we Hinterland don't feel it's a fair assessment of gameplay mechanics."

Especially since some players did answer to the best of their understanding and ability, so they were sure it was a wholly appropriate way to assess them. Otherwise, they would have either said it's not, or would have simply given me the pleasure of them not replying if they didn't agree with the method.

So from what I understand, what they said may or may not be relevant because this approach may or may not be a fair one. Well, it was fair to them when they answered, because they answered.

Even if it's not a fair assessment of gameplay mechanics, the fact that some players do feel it is fair, is relevant feedback, irrespective of the particular feedback about the mechanics.

Even if choices "shouldn't" be linked to discrete mechanics, the fact that some players do link them that way is relevant feedback. If nothing else, that literally, objectively tells you just that, players DO link choices to discrete mechanics. It would have mattered.

Well, not anymore, now it doesn't matter what anyone says. That was taken care of.

Thanks to everybody who did their best to answer what I asked them to and to everyone who didn't say anything.

[vimrich]

Another way to look at choices - how skewed are the results that gamers make? Folks that make the Tell-tale Heart games (The Walking Dead), measure the choices people make. If they are too skewed, then they re-balance the game to try to get to even 50-50 results for choices folks make. Based on that, let me re-answer:

Wolf struggle - fight entirely based on whether bandages/antiseptic in inventory, not on fight itself. Fight w/o bandages = 100% death so no choice based on actual fight. Fight DOES make for a choice if character is less than 100% condition. Avoid fights completely if already below 70%.

Stamina - still too early to tell w/ the 257/8 update. I used to "jog" everywhere, not I'm never really sure when to run ever. (Overall the exhaustion/tried scale does force choices, when to look for place to sleep.)

Medical - the fact that med supplies are not renewable (even collectable natural health items do not respawn) is the main driver. But no, I almost never "choose" which to apply or whether to apply meds.

Fire - this could be re-balanced some. Basically, once you die in the wind because you can't keep a fire going, you NEVER take the chance again of getting caught outside w/o shelter. The mere chance of bad weather dropping a 5 hour fire down to 5 mins is so automatically death, there's just no point in ever risking it. Once I spawned at night and saw that GORGEOUS night sky and thought "they put so much work into that, it would be nice to be out at night - if it wasn't insta-death to see it."

Weather - since the 257/8 update, weather feels more unstable. Storms are more frequent but shorter. When something is TOO random, you can't make choices. I used to pay attention to the crows and sky and stuff, but now I pretty much just assume I'm only getting a few hours of decent weather and plan for rest stop locations or emergency shelter's accordingly. Combined with fire-outside issue (see above) this could be improved somehow. The addition of slowing worsening weather was good (first wind, then snow, then full on storm) - this effect should be lengthened. I'd love to have to deal with 2 days of wind, followed by 2-3 day blizzards, then have 2 days of full on quiet, etc. Maybe this only makes sense in the late game though.

[octavian]

Can admin please lock this topic? It's already derailed and I have explained how the intent of it was sabotaged. So there's no point for people to post feedback any longer in this thread, they're just misrepresenting the intent of this thread. A cursory read from top to bottom will make that clear if it's not already. Thanks.

[bethany]

Sorry if that upset you or seemed out of place -- It was my personal opinion, and I try to comment on every thread that has a significant amount of useful feedback. I also felt like the quote you utilized to initiate the thread was a little out of context, but it did lead to some interesting results, which is what I was indicating with my post. I'm a little confused about why you would only entertain responses laid out a specific way as long as they're on-topic (which is all we, as a forum require), but if you want the thread locked, I'm happy to lock it.

And just as a side-note...

No, sprinting is the only activity which requires stamina. Sure you can choose when to sprint, how long to sprint and when to stop. But sprinting does not require calories and does not warm up the body. I now only use it in snowstorm or flee from wolf.

Not very interesting.

Sprinting, moving in general, carrying weight above a certain number, and many other activities require and use stamina. Just so that's out there!