Lean-To Shelter

[jackattack]

If we had enough sticks (and some line or gut?) would it make sense to be able to craft a simple shelter?

Not enough to change the ambient temperature, but maybe enough to shelter against the wind (at least partially).

When the character is done with it (or desperate for firewood), the shelter could be broken down to sticks again.

[DrMembrane]

This is not a bad idea, if you want to encourage going outside my (which I got the impression the dev's did) some sort of bivouacing (sp?) mechanic wouldn't go amiss.

[AmericanSteel]

With the abundance of homes, caves and other locations shelter building is not really necessary. Once you know a map, it does not take anytime to get from place to place. However, if you get caught out in a storm a shelter would be nice. That said, trying to erect a shelter during any sort of inclement weather is exponentially harder than doing so under favorable conditions.

While I would love to see it, it does not both me that it does not exist.

[octavian]

If we had enough sticks (and some line or gut?) would it make sense to be able to craft a simple shelter?

For me, no. The distances are really short, I don't see the point.

Not enough to change the ambient temperature, but maybe enough to shelter against the wind (at least partially).

You can use level geometry for that, anywhere, just have something between you and the direction the wind is blowing from.

What if other structures were added as level geometry so it wouldn't be something you can craft but rather something that already exits. Hunting blinds for example are extremely dinky as they are implemented now, what if they were more, built up, and perhaps a few more added, would that sort of make up for your wish for lean-to shelters? Or is the particular fact that you craft them and put them wherever you want fundamental to your wish for shelters?

[elloco999]

With the current maps I don't think a buildable shelter is needed. I could only see me using it on PV and even then most of the time a building is not that far off that I would take the time to build a shelter.

But if in the future a map gets added where there are much more open spaces without buildings (and the devs have hinted in the past that they wanted to do such a map) then the ability to build a shelter may make the different between surviving or not.

A shelter should probably do a little more than just shield you from the wind because as octavian pointed out, you can already use the terrain to do that.

[jackattack]

I find that the new weather dynamic of changing wind direction makes using terrain as a wind break a temporary solution at best. I frequently need to keep a fire going long enough to cook meat, boil water, or raise temperature enough to avoid hypothermia, and nine minutes won't do it.

I also rarely get to a destination before getting caught in a whiteout or a blizzard since the update -- it doesn't matter how many buildings there are or how close they are if you can't find them.

A lean-to would provide a(n additional) wind break to protect not just the character, but a fire as well. Players could use lean-tos however they want -- as the main feature of a bivouac, as a series of pre-made emergency shelters, as something they put up quickly when they hear thunder or see the visibility start to drop, or not at all. I acknowledge that shelters would be much more useful on some (future?) maps than others, but I think they would be useful.

Plus, I like to find/suggest additional uses for resources and discuss them.

[octavian]

Let's just keep this unemotional and practical, I just want to explore your idea and help you develop it by asking questions, if you don't want to do that just skip this

I frequently need to keep a fire going long enough to cook meat, boil water, or raise temperature enough to avoid hypothermia, and nine minutes won't do it.

Why do you do these things outside rather than inside? Is it because you don't know the maps or is there some other reason? Hypothermia I can maybe understand, but boiling water and cooking, outside, why?

I also rarely get to a destination before getting caught in a whiteout or a blizzard since the update -- it doesn't matter how many buildings there are or how close they are if you can't find them.

If you can't find them during a blizzard or at all? Because you can move from location to location instead of straight towards your destination, just so you avoid these kinds of circumstances. And with time you'll be able to reach any place form any place, night, blizzard, whatever.

A lean-to would provide a(n additional) wind break to protect not just the character, but a fire as well. Players could use lean-tos however they want -- as the main feature of a bivouac, as a series of pre-made emergency shelters, as something they put up quickly when they hear thunder or see the visibility start to drop, or not at all. I acknowledge that shelters would be much more useful on some (future?) maps than others, but I think they would be useful.

Well, there are a few problems that I see.

"A series of pre-made emergency shelters." Ok, but you said "it doesn't matter how many buildings there are or how close they are if you can't find them." Isn't that kind of the same thing? So you make an emergency shelter, and some time after you're caught by a blizzard. What's the difference between that and an already existing interior? If you don't know where one is why would you know where the other is?

Also, the word "series" raises another problem. If they are cheap to make, what's stopping the player from making for all intents and purposes a tunnel? Just a series shelters cutting the map from one end to another. On the other hand, if they are not cheap to make, what are they made out of? Saplings is the only thing that comes to mind, but that's just sticks, you can't make anything relevant out of those.

"As something they put up quickly when they hear thunder or see the visibility start to drop." Again, is this based on not knowing the map? Because why would you spend the time, resources and calories to do it instead of just heading for the closest interior? Also, I don't really see it working, at the first sign of bad weather you immediately stop whatever you are doing and start to make a shelter. To me that sounds a bit weird in terms of gameplay.

Also, if it has collision, I see major opportunity to use it for glitching out pathfinding or abuse the game in general, block off certain areas, get where you're not supposed to by using its slope, that sort of stuff.

What if you put two side-by-side such that you make a small house-thing? What if you put three side-by-side such that you're essentially protected from the wind from all directions, and from wildlife, with just a small space to wiggle in and out. And plop it down somewhere really advantageous. How do you guard against that? Or it's something fair to do in your opinion?

I'm asking because I want to understand your angle. If this need is based purely on not knowing the map then why not consider other methods? For example I've suggested, to no effect, wind chimes. Just, have them affixed by default to some houses, or craft them from used cans or whatever, which you can then affix yourself to any structure you wish. So in the event of a blizzard you'll be able to use your ear holes for navigation which is always awesome, not to mention the general, pretty ambiance it would provide. It would solve the problem indirectly while also introducing something you don't see often, navigation by sound. Sure, you could raise the problem of hearing them over the general sound of the wind, but it's a video game, we're talking gameplay.

If this is not the only reason, then what else? Maybe its connected to the reason you're cooking and boiling water outside? Do you want to stay outside? If so, why?

I have started a topic about a new structure because I want to stay outside, I don't want to go anywhere near interiors.

An open structure like the hunting blind with little protection from the elements but with a small cupboard or metal box - some shape or form of minimal storage - and a place to make a fire like the fishing hut. Perhaps, with a cracked roof so you can look at the stars, even a bed, why not.

So basically something like the lookout, but smaller, just big enough to fit a bed, a cupboard/box and a stove, with no windows/balcony, no door, and a cracked roof. If it would be elevated to some degree, higher than the usual hunting blind and more akin to the lookout it would be even better, so you don't snipe wildlife from ground level but have to do it from high up through the trees.

But if we want to spend as much time outside as possible, wouldn't already existing structures be better? I mean, the kind that doesn't require loading screens to access. Simply because it negates any kind of problems arising from you placing things wherever you want in the game world and they can be prettified by the devs, these structures, so they are an awesome place to be. Because it's not something macgyvered, it's a proper structure, even if derelict, not just some branches tied together. Even the fishing huts have their own charm.

As far as the bivouac thing is concerned, I have started a topic, again to zero effect, about camping derailment. It's an amazing base for a whole number of reasons, the only problem is that technically you can't make a fire, but you can; on top of the metal box, or the backpack, on top of objects, under the car, and many other places. But like I said, that's very awkward to do, just because I want to camp that place, so I asked for a way to have a legitimate place for fire at derailment.

So, suppose if multiple locations, like derailment, like hunting blinds even (not the new type I suggested, the ones that already exist) get legitimate places to start a fire and provide wind cover, would you still want the ability to make your own shelter? Because, again, if you don't know where those are, how do you know where your pre-made shelter is?

It could be that other mechanic could achieve your desire. Like a portable stove. Take cover wherever and whip out the stove, which has a wind shield or however it's called so it will always burn fine regardless of wind direction. Heat some beans and get warm. Or, if only, heat some water and drink that, or cook a piece of meat and eat it hot.

So I feel your idea would develop if you could point out what exactly it is that you want from it. A way to make a base wherever you want, a way to immediately protect against weather, a way of just spending as much time outside as possible and not going inside, camping nights there and looking at the stars, or something else entirely. It can't be all, there must be something in particular that's important to you above all else. So what is it?

[Aduron]

It could be that other mechanic could achieve your desire. Like a portable stove. Take cover wherever and whip out the stove, which has a wind shield or however it's called so it will always burn fine regardless of wind direction. Heat some beans and get warm. Or, if only, heat some water and drink that, or cook a piece of meat and eat it hot.

Or, to connect to your camping derailment idea, what about a thin sheet of metal you could lay down on any surface to make it able to receive a fire? You would need a little insulation to not char the floor, so there could be a menu option/hotkey for "make a platform", and it would cost 5 sticks and your rolled-up piece of metal, then you could put your fire down on (the snow, and) any wooden object. Corrugated roofing comes to mind.

The stove is a neat idea, though, too, and could be another way to use up kerosene. Unless it's one of these kind of stoves, it might be kinda heavy. I for one would just leave one of these stoves behind if it meant I had to lug it around.

[octavian]

@Aduron:It really makes no difference to me what the exact implementation is as long as I won't have to do this anymore

[spoil]

[SteveP]

I would also like to see the possibility of erecting shelters. It just adds more dimensions and possibilities to the game. If you are stuck in a blizzard and lost in the white out, it is hit and miss to find a sheltered spot for a fire and then the wind direction changes so frequently that you have to move your fire. I've been using the temporary fire thing to get warm and quickly cook a little meat or to thaw a frozen carcass if it's early and no hatchet is available. You can actually thaw out a carcass and harvest by hand.

Only the caves and tunnels are useful for temporary shelters. The outdoor barns and buildings don't provide enough shelter and are still subject to wind direction changes.

I think a snow shelter is something you either prepare in advance near your intended operation such as if you are operating a trap/snare line, near the end point. Presently we can only snare rabbits but I really hope more animals are introduced with more uses. The parka or other clothing could be enhanced with the addition of furs to improve warmth bonus.

Some of you folks are saying its really easy to navigate the maps (once familiar). Somehow we are not getting the same pseudo-random roll of the dice with weather and available clothing. This is why my questions about tuning are so important. There is nothing worse than a game that is just pure frustration. Don't do that.

If you collect statistics, good on you. I don't care if you share the results at all; I just want to know that there is a systematic approach to making the game playable and not frustrating. In the early stages of ML, the clothing available is very limited so this is what curtails movement in bad weather. There seems to be enough cloth available to patch stuff up however, without the good coats and boots and wool underwear, it can get very cold very fast. I'm assiduously keeping to wind shelter however fatigue and cold really cut down on movement time.

Is this all just random variability due to variation in resources?

It would be nice to have a small wind screen to help protect a vulnerable fire. It seldom works out that one can even make a fire near a wolf/deer kill and harvesting without enough warmth is a recipe for hypothermia. I'm improving being able to judge how close I can push it but the weather changes can mess that up. Then the wolves do clean up partially harvested carcasses (that I can determine) The problem is as a tester, I don't have access to aggregated statistical data. SOMEBODY needs to look at that.

Steve

[nicko]

I would also like to see the possibility of erecting shelters. It just adds more dimensions and possibilities to the game. If you are stuck in a blizzard and lost in the white out, it is hit and miss to find a sheltered spot for a fire and then the wind direction changes so frequently that you have to move your fire. I've been using the temporary fire thing to get warm and quickly cook a little meat or to thaw a frozen carcass if it's early and no hatchet is available. You can actually thaw out a carcass and harvest by hand.

Only the caves and tunnels are useful for temporary shelters. The outdoor barns and buildings don't provide enough shelter and are still subject to wind direction changes.

I think a snow shelter is something you either prepare in advance near your intended operation such as if you are operating a trap/snare line, near the end point. Presently we can only snare rabbits but I really hope more animals are introduced with more uses. The parka or other clothing could be enhanced with the addition of furs to improve warmth bonus.

Some of you folks are saying its really easy to navigate the maps (once familiar). Somehow we are not getting the same pseudo-random roll of the dice with weather and available clothing. This is why my questions about tuning are so important. There is nothing worse than a game that is just pure frustration. Don't do that.

If you collect statistics, good on you. I don't care if you share the results at all; I just want to know that there is a systematic approach to making the game playable and not frustrating. In the early stages of ML, the clothing available is very limited so this is what curtails movement in bad weather. There seems to be enough cloth available to patch stuff up however, without the good coats and boots and wool underwear, it can get very cold very fast. I'm assiduously keeping to wind shelter however fatigue and cold really cut down on movement time.

Is this all just random variability due to variation in resources?

It would be nice to have a small wind screen to help protect a vulnerable fire. It seldom works out that one can even make a fire near a wolf/deer kill and harvesting without enough warmth is a recipe for hypothermia. I'm improving being able to judge how close I can push it but the weather changes can mess that up. Then the wolves do clean up partially harvested carcasses (that I can determine) The problem is as a tester, I don't have access to aggregated statistical data. SOMEBODY needs to look at that.

Steve

A tip - don't go running around everywhere thinking you know what your doing, whilst spilling how good your are with your stats and job crap . slow down think. save your long paragraphs that have already or might of been answered many times before already.

Anyways have fun - play it and you will see most of your questions or rambles have mostly be fixed or addressed already. sorry to be so rude but your long posts of minor issues are starting to peev me. then each to their own

[jackattack]

I really wonder sometimes if I'm playing the same game the rest of you are.

Octavian,

Up front, I'm trying to find a way to keep a fire going in the wind, and maybe keep the character sheltered from the wind so his/her clothes don't fall off.

I cook and boil water outside when the shelter I find has no place to build a fire inside. Or when I find myself with no food or water and the weather closes in while I am harvesting raw meat.

I find it very difficult to find locations (which I know very well) in whiteouts and blizzards because I can't see the landmarks or the locations unless I'm right on them, and it is very hard to judge the direction the character is facing -- especially if you are trying to avoid wolves or if you need to go into inventory and get wrenched around coming out of it. When the character is freezing and his/her condition is falling, sometimes it makes sense to stop and build a fire, or it would if you could keep a fire going in a strong wind that keeps changing direction.

Pre-made shelters: More useful on (areas of) maps with few permanent shelters.

Series (and all other issues concerning the number of shelters): Stick scarcity and building requirements should keep players from getting silly with shelters. If that doesn't do it, then maybe this is something that should require maple saplings. That's something for the developers to work out. I personally don't see a problem with having a few shelters scattered around a map, or even setting up three shelters in an arc if the player thinks he has found a prime location to set up a long-term camp.

Putting it up quickly instead of going to a location: This is based on not being able to see farther than the next tree and not wanting to wander around lost in a blizzard or a whiteout while the character's condition falls.

Collision: The character should not be able to walk through or on the shelter, but animals should (like they already do with steep slopes). It's a wind break made of sticks, not a brick wall.

My "angle": I'm trying to add a possibility to game play that might help the character survive the changing wind dynamic, as well as being able to stop and wait out a whiteout or a blizzard. I'm not saying don't have wind chimes, or tents, or whatever else, but I think this is a valid possibility for a solution. (If it can be programmed.)

The more options there are for gameplay the wider the appeal of the game. Not necessarily because everyone will use all of them, but because different people will have different ways to play the same game.