We need to talk about scrap metal

[Loppysaurusrex]

So as many of you know, you can break down various items that have metal and use them to repair other items you have.

Sounds realistic in theory until you sit there and try to ponder how you managed to break down a crow bar to screws and bits of metal and then use it to repair your WW2 era rifle.

Am I the only one bothered by this?

Now you're probably thinking "what are we going to do if we ditch scrap metal? What will we repair our items with?"

Let me explain to you all how this should work.

1) Items need to degrade A LOT SLOWER: This makes sense as some metal items in these games do not seem to be made out of metal so much as tissue paper

2) Break down a lantern? You get lantern parts. Break down a rifle? You get rifle parts: coupled with the first part this makes items more valuable depending on what you need at the moment, how would you repair your rifle with a piece of firewood and a broken oil lantern? That makes no sense.

3) New ways to repair items: Say I have a hatchet or a knife, there's no way I'm going to sharpen that sucker with a broken rifle and a piece of firewood, we need to introduce some sort of way to sharpen items, perhaps the inclusion of "sharpening stones" or just certain rocks you find throughout the wild you can then use to spend time sharpening your tools at a workbench or something.

All in all, this system is nice on paper but makes no real world sense, and as I see it, it was going to become the center of attention sooner or later, I think it's best we start brainstorming now.

[LucidFugue]

At the moment, the most important thing is having the equipment, because maintaining it all requires the same materials and it works the same right up until it breaks (rifle excepted) . Scrap metal is the last scarce non renewable resource, aside from birch saplings perhaps.

I like the idea of sharpening stones for the knife & hatchet, but I think they should not be harvestable. Or, knives yield just the blade, to be used for a spear or other purpose. It takes longer to harvest carcasses and wood depending on the condition, you get less of a bonus during wolf struggles, and it degrades quickly. Keep your blades sharp!

Lanterns and rifles can consume scrap metal and require tools, I think that's reasonable considering cloth works for a huge range of purposes as well. Poor condition Lanterns should use more fuel. Is there any reason to keep your lantern in good condition at the moment?

[Loppysaurusrex]

At the moment, the most important thing is having the equipment, because maintaining it all requires the same materials and it works the same right up until it breaks (rifle excepted) . Scrap metal is the last scarce non renewable resource, aside from birch saplings perhaps.

I like the idea of sharpening stones for the knife & hatchet, but I think they should not be harvestable. Or, knives yield just the blade, to be used for a spear or other purpose. It takes longer to harvest carcasses and wood depending on the condition, you get less of a bonus during wolf struggles, and it degrades quickly. Keep your blades sharp!

Lanterns and rifles can consume scrap metal and require tools, I think that's reasonable considering cloth works for a huge range of purposes as well. Poor condition Lanterns should use more fuel. Is there any reason to keep your lantern in good condition at the moment?

You keep your items in good condition just so if SHTF you don't have to worry about it breaking.

The game is absurd about hatchets and knives, there is no way a well made hunting knife or hatchet is going to degrade as fast as they do in game, and rubbing bits of metal and screws on it making it brand new makes no sense either.

[Renegade30]

To be honest you do have an argument in terms of realism, but you have to factor in the fact that the long dark is not a realistic survival simulator, it is a game.

Now I dont make that statement in a derogatory sense at all, I love the long dark and it is really good at what it is, but some people on this forum seem to assume it is trying to be a simulator and not a game which are two completely different things.

To me you are asking the wrong question. The question isn't 'is scrap metal realistic?' it is 'does scrap metal work as a gameplay mechanic?'.

In my opinion I think scrap metal is a bit vague and should be expanded upon for gameplay depth. Perhaps we need to break down what scrap metal is made up of. If we could have metal plate, metal block, screws, nuts, washers etc that would be more realistic even though there are so many sizes each item could come in. But then it could possibly make harvesting metal items more difficult. Perhaps if we could salvage metal from furniture like we do for wood now? We could gather screws and metal components etc. Ie finding a car could provide lots of different types of metal salvage. Might be fun and add an extra level of complexity.

[ThorsHand11]

When it comes to repairing the rifle I agree that the generic scrap metal doesn't feel quite right but looking at the model of the gun the firewood requirement seems reasonable. What I think would be a reasonable compromise between realism and game mechanics would be to have a few different types of base metal parts like plates, scrap and screws. This could diversify where the metal could be found as well as which items are more useful to break down. Also if there were other objects in the world to break down like cars and some of the useless electrical equipment to get metal parts from certain areas may become more beneficial later in the game. When it comes to hatchets, knives and guns if they broke down into the wood and then the bade or barrel which could be used to only repair the same items. The gun, knife and hatchet could also be repaired with the other types of metal but to a much reduced efficiency.

[madrepityu]

the long dark is not a realistic survival simulator

Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole thing started to become the greatest survival simulator. As I remember it well. Once upon a time even the intro of the game mentionen "survival simulator".

Then after the community had a lot of issues, questions and requests they started to "defending" with the prase "It's not a simulator, it's a game".

So it meant to be a simulator, but they changed they mind. As they find out that it would be a much bigger and complex thing to make.

This is the description of the Hinterland forum: "The Long Dark is a thoughtful, exploration focused survival simulation set in the Northern wilderness in the aftermath of a global disaster."

Old kikstarter page title: "THE LONG DARK, a first person post-disaster survival simulator"

New title: THE LONG DARK, a post-disaster survival experience

[LucidFugue]

Perhaps the issue is not that they changed their mind, but they realised that the word "simulator" had different meanings to different people. Hinterland to me have presented themselves as experienced game designers. There is a lot of material written on the intersection of realism and "fun", and where you make your divergence from reality comes down to your vision as a designer. Whether it's wolf struggle, foraging, carcass harvesting, repairing, managing hunger, thirst, cold and fatigue, the abstractions that exist in the game are about making a design that strikes a balance between realism, and compelling gameplay.

I don't think it cheapens things at all to explain that after testing numerous ways of reflecting reality, you're making a design decision to leave a system in place that isnt a true reflection of reality. Scrap metal is a decent enough stand in. I agree it needs to change, but like I said earlier, cloth is interchangeable between every piece of clothing as well as towels pillows curtains and bedrolls because it isn't meaningful or helpful to break it down to fabric types or the size of pieces etc.

When people defend with "it's a game" I think that's really saying "because it would be more realistic" isn't enough of a reason to change things. Complexity needs to have a reason to exist, otherwise it makes things fiddly and inaccessible with no real benefit.

[Bill Tarling]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole thing started to become the greatest survival simulator. As I remember it well. Once upon a time even the intro of the game mentionen "survival simulator".

Then after the community had a lot of issues, questions and requests they started to "defending" with the prase "It's not a simulator, it's a game".

So it meant to be a simulator, but they changed they mind. As they find out that it would be a much bigger and complex thing to make.

This is the description of the Hinterland forum: "The Long Dark is a thoughtful, exploration focused survival simulation set in the Northern wilderness in the aftermath of a global disaster."

There's a big difference between specifically "a simulator" and having a game survival simulation. It was never intended to represent or pretend to "become the greatest survival simulator" as you said - it simply includes a lot of the survival simulations and mechanics normally not found in most games (with balances between realism and gameplay).

[Loppysaurusrex]

Perhaps the issue is not that they changed their mind, but they realised that the word "simulator" had different meanings to different people. Hinterland to me have presented themselves as experienced game designers. There is a lot of material written on the intersection of realism and "fun", and where you make your divergence from reality comes down to your vision as a designer. Whether it's wolf struggle, foraging, carcass harvesting, repairing, managing hunger, thirst, cold and fatigue, the abstractions that exist in the game are about making a design that strikes a balance between realism, and compelling gameplay.

I don't think it cheapens things at all to explain that after testing numerous ways of reflecting reality, you're making a design decision to leave a system in place that isnt a true reflection of reality. Scrap metal is a decent enough stand in. I agree it needs to change, but like I said earlier, cloth is interchangeable between every piece of clothing as well as towels pillows curtains and bedrolls because it isn't meaningful or helpful to break it down to fabric types or the size of pieces etc.

When people defend with "it's a game" I think that's really saying "because it would be more realistic" isn't enough of a reason to change things. Complexity needs to have a reason to exist, otherwise it makes things fiddly and inaccessible with no real benefit.

This, I do not support lazy developing, this game has potential and if they take the easy way out that makes little to no sense instead of proper balancing this game will fall short of the greatness it has already set.