Wolf Attack - TAP A BUTTON?? Seriously?!!!!

[Espiritdecorp]

OK so revisiting my original statement It got me thinking (especially after seeing a lot of great ideas here on how wolf attacks should be handled)

One thing i kept thinking was "Why cant i use my rifle?". I normally have my rifle out when I am roaming around and when i get attacked it just dose the tap to escape thing. Which is fine since they wanted something simple for new comers to the game who had a hard time escaping from wolf attacks.

In my personal opinion though i think it should take a bit longer to get the wolf off of the person. if you have the reflexes you can basically end the attack with just a bit to the arm and then it runs away. Although i understand for new comers this is perfect and the game gets more focus on survival rather then the wolf fights. But if i have to fight a wolf then make it a bit more of a well, fight. Make it last a bit longer (though not doing as much damage perhaps) similar to what it was before. Fighting a wolf should be scary and having the wolf latched to your arm for a few moments (or if it gets used some how to your weapon) would be so much more immersive since it will be a bit more scary to fight a wolf knowing you have to fight it off. Not saying button mashing isn't a good way to go with this but make it more of a peril when you're attacked you know so you don't want to be attacked. the way it is now you get attacked you button mash and then the wolf runs away and you take damage from it. Easy yes but not as immersive as this game should be.

But what i wanted to know is why I cant use my rifle to help defend myself. Since Its already drawn wouldn't it make sense that if a wolf was attacking you (head on anyway) that you use the rifle to maybe block the attack? This would prevent any damage to the player, but would damage the rifle since its taking the hit for you so to speak. If possible introducing new weapons (mainly just allowing the Hatchet and the Hunting Knife to be used as weapons as well as tools) perhaps using them to aid in an attack would also be useful maybe having the Hunting Knife be a counter attack that would kill the wolf, at the expense of some of its durability, and of course a bit of harm to the player since its not large enough to really defend with. The hatchet could be used in the same way that the rifle is used but instead of a two handed defense its used to block the wolf bite while the other hand is used to push the wolf away.

i mean these are just ideas but i wouldnt mind seeing some of this happen as far as wolf attacks go

[Boston123]

Smacking a wolf around with a surplus military rifle isn't going to do a damn thing to the rifle. They were designed to be used in H2H, after a fashion, and cracking something upside the skull with the stock, or "body-checking" something with the rifle isn't a big deal. Hell, you can do the above with modern firearms, much less one with solid wood furniture!

Protip: you can already use the knife and the hatchet as melee weapons. The knife has a blade at least 4 inches long. That is PLENTY long to defend yourself with, just so you know. And, how is stabbing a wolf going to damage it? It has a full tang and a thick back. The only way you are going to break that is doing something specifically to break it. The handle won't break off during routine use: that is why any "survival knife" worth its salt will have at least a half-tang, and overwhelmingly preferably, a full-tang. They are almost indestructible with proper use.

Same thing with a hatchet. Drop the blade, or preferably, the poll, on top of a wolfs skull, and you will have a very dead wolf.

Seriously, you people are severely overestimating just how tough animals are. While stabbing a wolf in the torso with a knife or a spear might not kill it right away, it is 1) going to die from blood loss anyways and 2) going to run away. Animals, especially predators, don't like to get hurt, and prey showing even the slightest bit of resistance is likely to be left alone. This is why animals have "dominance matches", so they can eliminate the need for a fight and therefore, the possibility of getting injured.

One-on-one, all things equal, I am fully confident in my ability to fight off a wolf bare-hand, so long as I don't freak out and fall on my back like we do in-game. With a weapon (even if it is only a solid branch), my chances increase exponentially.

Seriously, people. Humanity has been on top of the food chain for at least 200,000 years, since the development of fire and pointy sticks (not even spears, with sharp stone points, just fire-hardened tips!), all because we are smarter than most other animals, and can use our brains to plan and come up with weapons and strategies on the fly. Losing the electricity would not take that away

[InvicteExsules]

Going with the disclaimer at the opening of every session, we all know wolves dont attack people. So in game we can assume that the whole 'top of the food chain' position we've held for a couple thousand years can go right out the window.

Considering that, why cant a larger, more aggressive wolf like the ones were dealing with have a different set of instincts? I like the idea of being able to defend myself with the knife, hatchet, gun but, large stick, but what if we stopped assuming these animals function under realistic guidelines? Then attacking the wolf back could not deter it from attacking you, maybe it would, but then the wolf would be back with its pack, not wanting to loose its meal.

What if there was customized, timing, skill based, quick time event, combat? Hear me out: If your attacked by a wolf, pending on which weapon ur holding u react differently? and how u react decides which wounds you get, how much condition you loose, and how fatigued u are when the attack is over? U struggle and mash A as fast as u can, u loose more fatigue and u get more shallow wounds. But specific timing of ur resistance, u lose a little more condition, u get less wounds, u loose less fatigue, and u deal more damage back to the wolf?

[Boston123]

You don't really understand what that statement means, do you?

"top of the food chain" isn't some wrestling match, where as soon as the top-guy gets attacked, the champion loses the title. Instead, "top of the food chain" means WE are the top predator: we eat things from all levels of the food chain, while simultaneously NOT being regularly eaten by predators on the lower levels. Note that I said "regularly". Yes, humans occasionally get killed and eaten by lions, wolves, bears, aka other predators. That doesn't mean we move down / they move up. Besides, most animals, even when they kill people, tend to NOT eat them. We are rather skinny and boney for their liking.

Humans are the apex predators on the planet, and have been through over 200,000 years of development, various Ice Ages, intercontinental migrations, and the complete and total extirmination of "megafauna", with nothing more than a sharp stick and the wet noodle between our ears. Some pissed-off wolf, regardless of the size, has NOTHING on a Mammoth or Cave Bear.

And. no, I would expect larger wolves to be the more intelligent ones, considering how they would have to survive that long to get that large. And, even if they weren't intelligent enough to straight-out AVOID humans, they would still be smart enough to use tactics other than "charge straight at the human". If I had a long stick, jabbing at the wolf SHOULD make it stop charging. Remember: it doesn't want to get hurt, even more than it wants to kill me. Swinging a torch or club/hatchet in its face should make it back up. Again, it DOESN'T WANT TO GET HURT, regardless of how stupid or pissed-off-crazy this completely-fictional geomagnetic BS would make them (Really. Geomagnetism only really has an effect on animals that, you know, USE geomagnetism to navigate: birds, cows, fish, insects, etc, not the predators we see in game. Would they be scared, and that is why they attack us? Sure, but "being scared" is a HELL of a lot different than the mindless berserkers we have)

And, no, no to quick-time events. What weapon I am using should have no outcome on what injuries I have, nor what injuries I give to the animal. If I have a rifle, and a wolf charges up to me before I can shoot it, let me bash its skull in with the stock, as opposed to FORCING me to pull out the "best weapon".

[McGuffin]

I dont know if it's buggy, or if there is a strong random parameter, but yesterday, I was attacked by a wolf, My condition went down from 100% to 8% : I wasnt able to kick him at all, I had a knife and I clicked my mouse button as quick as possible, but the attack bar never filled up. (I wasnt injured before, or tired)

[klesh]

I would like to see something where you click and hold the LMB (to make a fist) and you swing at the wolf by literally moving your mouse from the outside inward. It sort of simulates you performing the striking.

We need something that makes the player kick and scream and claw at his controls the same way you would if a wolf was on top of you.

[klesh]

The wolf combat was definitely simplified in favour of the number of new players we see die repeatedly with no idea how the old combat system actually worked.

Hi Bethany,

Please do not pander to uniformed new players that can't figure out the game. Make the game the right way, and they'll either learn and adapt or be too stupid to figure it out. Also, consider a tutorial where bad things happen to you and you're shown how to react if you're not going to make a .pdf manual that explains this stuff.

As you say, the new aftereffects of an attack are great, I agree. Unfortunately that is nullified by the simplification of the actual melee combat event.

Was this another reaction to what you folks saw at E3, similar to people thinking warmer/colder was a navigation aide?

[Jytton Lames]

I agree with Frank Zappa (Legend!), no one over 12 is going to walk away from a twenty dollar/euro game because they can't figure out a fight mechanic more complex than "mash left button", they'll figure it out or Google it even without tutorials. That mouse waving idea is dangerous though, Black and White made me spill valuable booze on several occasions. I wasn't that enthused about the last system but by doing 2 full bars, 1 1/4 and 1 full you could kill the furry coat component if you got it right. This new seeming randomness (See Scyzaras comment above) makes it less interesting. I still like my "The Wolfer" idea (further above), but other people have suggested some good stuff too. Just anything where skill gives a better result and a lot of skill gets an ex-wolf would do me...

[Scyzara]

Just anything where skill gives a better result and a lot of skill gets an ex-wolf would do me...

I've been thinking about the seemingly "random" outcomes of the fights for quite some time now. And I have come to the conclusion that this emphasized randomness - as unfair and odd as it may seem in the first place - is (in a weird way) an almost genius game design decision.

I'm much more reluctant to go into handfights with wolves now as I don't know for sure any more that I'll be able to fend them off with 70%+ condition remaining. Hell, if I'm ever unlucky enough to encounter a wolf only slightly stronger than my most fearsome opponent so far, I'm probably even gonna die during a handfight for the first time since 8 months or so.^^

On the other hand people who had really hard times with the old system and died due to every wolf attack (e.g. because they're incredibly slow clickers or had issues to understand the old system) now probably have better chances to survive. At least if they're lucky and get one of the "weaker" wolves who seem to be more common.

It's very arguable of course whether randomness or a performance-based outcome of the fight are more "fair", but if we decide to blind out the need for fairness for a moment and only observe the results (experienced players consider wolves to be more dangerous again while new/bad players have better chances to survive), the current system certainly has its advantages.

Don't wanna say that I like it, but I think I can somehow understand the Devs' decision.

[bethany]

The wolf combat was definitely simplified in favour of the number of new players we see die repeatedly with no idea how the old combat system actually worked.

Hi Bethany,

Please do not pander to uniformed new players that can't figure out the game. Make the game the right way, and they'll either learn and adapt or be too stupid to figure it out. Also, consider a tutorial where bad things happen to you and you're shown how to react if you're not going to make a .pdf manual that explains this stuff.

As you say, the new aftereffects of an attack are great, I agree. Unfortunately that is nullified by the simplification of the actual melee combat event.

Was this another reaction to what you folks saw at E3, similar to people thinking warmer/colder was a navigation aide?

Hi Klesh,

My job is to assess feedback, and provide help when needed.

Please do not make statements suggesting that players that question, or need help with understanding new systems can't figure it out because they are too stupid to do so. Please consider this a warning, as this kind of attitude is generally not welcome in this community.

[klesh]

Hi Klesh,

Please do not make statements suggesting that players that question, or need help with understanding new systems can't figure it out because they are too stupid to do so. Please consider this a warning, as this kind of attitude is generally not welcome in this community.

Hi Bethany,

Fair enough.

[Jytton Lames]

experienced players consider wolves to be more dangerous again while new/bad players have better chances to survive

Don't wanna say that I like it, but I think I can somehow understand the Devs' decision.

I've been mostly adopting the "Indiana Jones" solution - just shoot him - but when I do melee I've also encountered a bug (reported) where the fight goes on after the wolf is dead so maybe that's colouring my thinking a little. I really don't mind getting my hind end handed to me by a canine carnivore (they should be terrifying) but what drives me crazy is to fight hard, take huge damage and then the ba - er, the bad wolfie runs off at 100kmph and his blood trail vanishes soon after I bandage and pursue! When I messed up my clicks with the last system I would sulk but now it's random (ish) I feel like howling at the moon! But you raise a good point that we should all consider - we're not game developers, we don't know how to "balance" a game and to disagree with you, Hinterland are not "almost genius" devs, just "genius" in their field. I'm sure it'll all get worked out (The Wolfer!!) by release. I do think people should continue to post here though, they do ask for ideas after all. Thanks for teaching me stuff about the game by the way, I've been reading long before posting anything - not shy just lazy!

[octavian]

It's very arguable of course whether randomness or a performance-based outcome of the fight are more "fair", but if we decide to blind out the need for fairness for a moment and only observe the results (experienced players consider wolves to be more dangerous again while new/bad players have better chances to survive), the current system certainly has its advantages.

I feel it has nothing to do with being either an experienced or a new/bad player; as my video showed, all it matters is how fast you can click. If you can jitter click, it doesn't matter if you've played TLD for 1, 10 or 1000 hours.

Also I feel it's too meta as it puts tension on how you use a method of input. This will always be true in gaming to some extent but even if you can't jitter click you can get an advantage by changing the way you click; using two fingers, using the second knuckle, where exactly on the mouse you press to "click" as some areas require more pressure and vertical movement than others and so on.

You will always want to click faster because it brings an advantage. So the entire activity becomes removed from the game, it becomes an issue of how to best use a piece of hardware to get an advantage at playing the game.

[Jytton Lames]

You will always want to click faster because it brings an advantage. So the entire activity becomes removed from the game, it becomes an issue of how to best use a piece of hardware to get an advantage at playing the game.

I liked your video response, way to think outside the box and man can you click! But do you have any suggestions for Hinterland to remedy this mono digit torture? Or do you agree with anyones suggestions - e.g. "The Wolfer" method?

[octavian]

But do you have any suggestions for Hinterland to remedy this mono digit torture?

:lol: Hinterland doesn't need my suggestions, it's their vision, not mine, so no.

Or do you agree with anyones suggestions - e.g. "The Wolfer" method?

Not really, I mean, whatever the implementation I'll go with it, I don't really care that much about the specifics, wolves don't really affect my play style.

There are a lot of points that could be discussed but, again, I don't feel that what "could be" is an issue. It could be a lot of things, it will be whatever Hinterland's vision for the wolves is. We either like it or we don't, as players, and that's pretty much it.

[Jytton Lames]

But do you have any suggestions for Hinterland to remedy this mono digit torture?

:lol: Hinterland doesn't need my suggestions, it's their vision, not mine, so no.

Or do you agree with anyones suggestions - e.g. "The Wolfer" method?

Not really, I mean, whatever the implementation I'll go with it, I don't really care that much about the specifics, wolves don't really affect my play style.

There are a lot of points that could be discussed but, again, I don't feel that what "could be" is an issue. It could be a lot of things, it will be whatever Hinterland's vision for the wolves is. We either like it or we don't, as players, and that's pretty much it.

@Bethany, is Octavian right about this? I don't post on forums (obviously), but I've been waiting for a game like yours since first seeing Ray Mears shows 15 years ago. I got TLD in June and have logged 230 hours on Steam to date + writing my first ever review because Raphael asked. I'm not exactly your key demographic (If you have one) but I've been posting about the new wolf brawl because I have mild arthritis in my fingers - probably from decades of button mashing - and the new mechanic is actually a bit painful (the last one was less so). Also, I'm lousy at it. Not that I'll stop playing, that's what painkillers are for, but does Alpha Feedback mean the team are actually considering the ideas posted here? If not I'll just go back to reading comments and cross my toes for a different system.

[Hyenaz]

Sorry to say it, but the last mechanic was bad and this one is even worse.

I see two solutions:

1) Have an automatic resolution depending on your helth, stamina and wepaon (management/strategy take on it)

2) Bring bakc the old system and enchance it with combo-style mechanics perhaps (fighting game take on it).

Buton mashing is dub and is frankly the worst of both words

[bethany]

@Bethany, is Octavian right about this? I don't post on forums (obviously), but I've been waiting for a game like yours since first seeing Ray Mears shows 15 years ago. I got TLD in June and have logged 230 hours on Steam to date + writing my first ever review because Raphael asked. I'm not exactly your key demographic (If you have one) but I've been posting about the new wolf brawl because I have mild arthritis in my fingers - probably from decades of button mashing - and the new mechanic is actually a bit painful (the last one was less so). Also, I'm lousy at it. Not that I'll stop playing, that's what painkillers are for, but does Alpha Feedback mean the team are actually considering the ideas posted here? If not I'll just go back to reading comments and cross my toes for a different system.

Is Octavian right? Yes and no.

At the end of the day, the team is a seasoned group of industry veterans with a clear vision for what the game should/will become. That being said, of course we listen to feedback and consider ideas. Several ideas and suggestions from our community have become a part of the game, and we've made countless adjustments to multiple systems based on community feedback. With our big updates, especially July's, we are constantly evaluating feedback on the bigger changes and newer systems. We don't want to bend too much and take every suggestion to heart (because that would be a complete mess), but we absolutely listen when several players give us the same general feedback on a specific idea. Even frequently asked questions ("How do I do this?", "Why isn't this working?") have inspired the team to make adjustments that help players better understand the mechanics and core systems of the game.

I hope that makes sense. It irks me a little every time I see a post that basically says "The team will do whatever they won't without listening to what we think"...Really?? (Not calling Octavian out here, by the way -- Just a general statement) There may be systems that will stick around that don't appeal to every player, but we're always going over feedback and taking it to heart. Our community is very important to us, and a crucial part of our Early Access process. If we didn't care what you guys had to say, I imagine we wouldn't even bother interacting with you on the forums. Before I had this job, I was amazed by the amount of access the players have to the development team, and how much that team is willing to listen to constructive criticism and ideas. It's pretty rare and special, especially considering (as I mentioned before) they're all seasoned professionals, not a couple of kids blindly mashing buttons.

Please don't take this to mean that we're going to change this combat system. I have no idea what future plans are, but I personally like this MUCH more than the old system. I can't help but wonder what everyone thinks of the struggle system in Telltale games...Mash A until the meter fills, then hit another random button to succeed. I understand they're very different beasts, but keep in mind The Long Dark is still in development and some of these changes may make more sense with future updates. Not every game has to have complex combat systems to be enjoyable, but that's just my opinion.

Always share your feedback and ideas. That's literally why we have forums labeled "Playtest Feedback" and "Wish List".

[Jytton Lames]

Thank you for the detailed reply Bethany, and Octavian for responding initially to a neophyte poster. Since ideas are welcome, what about keeping the current mode but adding a selector in Options for "Precision Melee" - when the wolf lunges, you click, that kind of thing, no huge graphics, sound or code changes required in my amateur (worthless?) opinion. That way the kids (under thirty to me, no offence!) can mash LMB while the fewer and lazier save wear and tear on mouse buttons and digit joints alike. I freely admit to "rabble rousing" but if a lot of people chip in to support this or any non-frenetic system it just might get into this fantastic game. Let's keep posting here says the new guy!

[elloco999]

As our feedback is being listened to, I'd like to say again that any system that requires rapidly clicking a mouse button or key on the keyboard is in my eyes a very poor system.

Although I agree that the new system is better than the previous one, It's only marginally so. At it's core the wolf fighting system has always been about clicking the mouse button as rapidly as possible. And I really don't like that! There is absolutely no skill (either the player's or the character's) involved and weapon/ clothing carried has little impact if you don't click fast enough.

If there is one thing I'd like to see changed in TLD, it's the wolf fighting system.

[SteveP]

Going with the disclaimer at the opening of every session, we all know wolves dont attack people. So in game we can assume that the whole 'top of the food chain' position we've held for a couple thousand years can go right out the window.

Wolf attacks on humans do occur, just Google it. Mainly India where they have learned to silently enter huts and take children by biting them to silence cries and carrying them outside. In other places, they have learned to avoid humans whenever there is interaction. Up North, where wolves are not habituated to people, we are a strange animal not usually attacked unless weak or bleeding.

Cougars OTOH, do stalk people and small kids especially if old and hungry. To fend off an attack you must fight back. Same as a bear attack, you fight back to stop biting etc. Don't forget this is sort of contrived hypothetical situation for the sake of game play. Game trade offs.

I hope there is further tuning to game resources and situation. It can be tough to get enough weapons to make it to mid-game in V-level. Storms are killing me; in Pilgrim mode, the game is too easy; that's mainly for learning the maps etc.

[Malcot]

I'm on Xbox One and the button mashing mechanic works for me as it's something console gamers are used to. This is always the challenge when creating a game for two very different sets of gamers (PC and console).

My only suggestion would be to have an option to turn interactive wolf attacks on or off. If set to off then it would be resolved with a cut scene where the game just takes into consideration your current health, stamina, weapons etc. Maybe always have a higher chance of a good outcome if you choose the interactive button mashing option to reward you for the effort.

[Jytton Lames]

I'm on Xbox One and the button mashing mechanic works for me as it's something console gamers are used to. This is always the challenge when creating a game for two very different sets of gamers (PC and console).

My only suggestion would be to have an option to turn interactive wolf attacks on or off. If set to off then it would be resolved with a cut scene where the game just takes into consideration your current health, stamina, weapons etc. Maybe always have a higher chance of a good outcome if you choose the interactive button mashing option to reward you for the effort.

Nice to hear from a console player, though occasionally I do lament their (the machines!) existence - Resident Evil 5 PC had both my hands doing a spider tango with its "scarier than the monsters" quicktime events. Of course the game wouldn't have existed without the console market, let's not get into all that. I can see where action systems like this would suit a controller better but I'm posting to say "No way man" to taking the fight out of the players hands altogether. This is a hands on visceral game I'd much rather take my chances and sore finger with the current system thanks!

Edit: I just realised you said "as an option" - maybe a good idea, don't think people would use it though. Cheers!

[Survivor]

Re mashing mouse buttons when you suffer with artritis.

Previous versions of TLD allowed a re-map of the Action key to be used instead of the left mouse button. I used the Spacebar which was much less painful and worked very well. This disappeared with one of the updates around 1.8 I think! Although the Action key can still be re-mapped, wolf attacks require use of the mouse only. Could this change be reversed?

[Jytton Lames]

Re mashing mouse buttons when you suffer with artritis.

Previous versions of TLD allowed a re-map of the Action key to be used instead of the left mouse button. I used the Spacebar which was much less painful and worked very well. This disappeared with one of the updates around 1.8 I think! Although the Action key can still be re-mapped, wolf attacks require use of the mouse only. Could this change be reversed?

Do you have arthritis too? Mine is very mild but since I'm only I worry a bit. I'm totally pro options for gamers with any impairments - color blind etc. so in the words of Led Zeppelin: "Bring it back bring it back oh now oh now oh.." Sorry, love that song.

I'd rather not mash anything except my spuds though (Irish) and would really prefer a skill based system, not necessarily complex or requiring a huge overhaul that frankly at this stage I really doubt they'd do. Cheers for posting mate, as Bethany sort of said above the more attention it gets on here the more attention it gets back there.