Can we have some organic food?

[EternityTide]

See if GM food was accepted, then a pest-resistant crop could be implemented. Once we've got that, we can stop using pesticides and save the bees!

Because the GM crops don't need pesticides, they would be grown organically, so everybody wins!

And I don't understand why people think eating GM is different from conventional food.

A plant modified to live in desert conditions doesn't make the people who eat it resistant to dehydration. When you eat it, you break it down and digest it. It's the gene inserted that makes it drought resistant. Your body doesn't absorb genes through your gut. If it did, gene therapy would be really easy. We could wipe out every single hereditary disease through gene therapy tablets.

But it doesn't work that way, so why worry about it?

[harobed1156]

Here's something to contemplate:

If you have a GM plant that is resistant to pests and has high yield, you wouldn't need pesticides. Therefore, you have an organic product.

True, and having plants produce their own Bt or other resistance to virus, etc... is a terrific idea - for a while. We've already seen the evolution of pests that are Bt-resistant and diseases that have evolved to defeat GMO resistance. (One major problem with this is when Bt-resistant bugs find their way into organic crops, organic farmers no longer have an effective treatment.)

Much the same thing has happened with herbicides. Round-up resistant weeds have evolved so that 2,4-D is applied with increasing frequency. This has lead to bioengineering of 2,4-D resistant GMOs, which will undoubtedly lead to 2,4-D resistant weeds. The most ironic thing about stacking resistant traits in GMOs is that the stacking results in reduced yields, sometimes to less than organic yields. IMO, engineering plants that we KNOW will lead to resistant pests is not a sane strategy.

So organic doesn't necessarily have to be the low yield, high expense food it is now.

Organic crops have been shown to out-perform (produce a higher yield than) conventional crops in times of drought and excess rainfall, principally due to the water holding abilities of improved soil structure. This ought to be of interest to us in view of the non-sustainable water use invested in conventional crops right now.

Although technically speaking, GM food is rejected by the Organic community, which, following @Scyzara 's explanation of GM, seems a bit overkill, since GM just accomplishes what conventional breeding achieves, only in a short timespan.

True, GMOs do create insects and weeds that are resistant to pesticides and herbicides much faster than heirloom seeds ever could.

[harobed1156]

See if GM food was accepted, then a pest-resistant crop could be implemented. Once we've got that, we can stop using pesticides and save the bees!

Not gonna happen. When antibiotics, antimicrobials, pesticides, etc... are used as prophylactics rather than as-needed in the case of an actual infection or infestation, you breed resistant organisms. This is true even if the "anti" trait is bred into a plant rather than a treatment applied to the plant or field. If Mother Nature had a rule book, this just might be Rule #1.

[Scyzara]

Exactly these resistance issues with insects, fungi and weeds are the reason why I wrote that the current approaches of inserting single herbicide resistance or pesticide genes (as currently done by Monsanto & Co) are short-sighted bullshit.

Simply because they'll have to enter a new additional gene into their seed lines every few years in order to get rid of pests/weeds that became resistant against the original gene. That's great for Monsanto's business as farmers need to buy new seed lines constantly, but of course less great for said farmers, seed biodiversity in general and innocent bystander plants/insects that suffer due to consciously accepted side-effects (e.g. bees dying due to pesticide genes in corn pollen).

Reasonable long-term approaches would thus create GMOs with greater genetic diversity and multiple different features at once. Boost the plant's own "immune system" mechanisms, add different glycosides or alkaloides (bitter-tasting compounds) to plant parts that aren't meant to be eaten by humans, possibly modify the endodermis structure to enable new mycorrhiza-partnerships that repel pests, add different pesticide genes and - for goodness' sake - control and check their proper expression in all relevant plant tissues.

Such GMOs would be much more expensive and time-consuming to create (not sure if you could make any profit with them at all because of the huge development costs), but it's almost impossible that any pest or weed could ever develop resistances against all these different features simultaneously. Especially not if you grow a dozen different genotypes on the same field.^^

Making plants that are resistant to drought or high salt concentrations in the soil is another very sensible approach. Or giving them an increased nutritional value by adding vitamins, secondary plant substances or beneficial fatty acids. I actually like these three ideas for GMOs way better than the current pesticide/herbicide resistance approaches. Rat-racing against pests/weeds (like it's done currently) is definitely no advisable long-term strategy.

[toebar]

See if GM food was accepted, then a pest-resistant crop could be implemented. Once we've got that, we can stop using pesticides and save the bees!

Not gonna happen. When antibiotics, antimicrobials, pesticides, etc... are used as prophylactics rather than as-needed in the case of an actual infection or infestation, you breed resistant organisms. This is true even if the "anti" trait is bred into a plant rather than a treatment applied to the plant or field. If Mother Nature had a rule book, this just might be Rule #1.

True, but this is not all the fault of GMOs. Pesticides are used irresponsibly across the board-- I recently learned about glyphosate being used as a crop desiccant: Link. Wiki Link This one blew my mind a bit. (To be clear--my point here is the misuse of a pesticide, while the point of the article is an unproven correlation between this practice and some food sensitivities). Anyway, I had no idea this was a practice, and I'm pretty sure that it should not be.

[harobed1156]

True, but this is not all the fault of GMOs. Pesticides are used irresponsibly across the board-- I recently learned about glyphosate being used as a crop desiccant: Link. Wiki Link This one blew my mind a bit. (To be clear--my point here is the misuse of a pesticide, while the point of the article is an unproven correlation between this practice and some food sensitivities). Anyway, I had no idea this was a practice, and I'm pretty sure that it should not be.

Wow. The levels of glyphosate residue found in one study vs. the levels deemed toxic to your liver in another study appear to overlap some. :? I emailed Food Alliance to ask if they permit growers to use it, since their certification is on my bag of chickpeas. Among their claims are statements that growers "Reduce use of pesticides and other toxic or hazardous materials" and "Guarantee food product integrity, with no genetically engineered or artificial ingredients." I'll bet that verbiage doesn't rule out glyphosate residue at all.

Edit: Email response from Food Alliance:

The World Health Organization does not list glyphosate as an acute toxin (category 1a or 1b), so Food Alliance does not specifically prohibit its use. WHO does list glyphosate as a probably carcinogen (category 2a), but the research is still on-going.

So Food Alliance would allow use of glyphosate for weed control as part of well developed Integrated Pest Management (IPM) plan.

With IPM, the goal is for farmers use cultural and biological controls to prevent or limit pest problems and avoid or significantly reduce the need for chemical treatments. The standards are written to recognize and reward the farmers whose goal is to manage crops so that they don't have to spray. [end of email]

[exeexe]

Just out of curiousity.... what's the price comparison between that avocado and a regular one?

Ok so i looked today, same shop, same state of origin but today different package. Strange. Anyway 2 organic for the price of 20, and 3 conventional for the price of 26.

The package today had some foam holder for the food kind of like here

http://www.cagreen.ca/0-70

[EternityTide]

Organic crops have been shown to out-perform (produce a higher yield than) conventional crops in times of drought and excess rainfall, principally due to the water holding abilities of improved soil structure. This ought to be of interest to us in view of the non-sustainable water use invested in conventional crops right now.

I've said for a long time now that traditional crop rotation is a sensible measure. It also reduces the chance of soil exhaustion, Green mulch practices also reduces winter losses of topsoil to wind and rain.

But here's the thing. If Organic crops do so much better than conventional crops, why are they so frigging expensive? I mean, I saw some organic cucumbers in the shop yesterday, and I would have bought them, but they were a full £1.20 more expensive than the conventional cucumbers. I can't afford to buy that.

I agree that conventional practices of spraying an area with pesticides doesn't work.

When I was growing courgettes about 3 years back, I found nematode worms to be far more effective than copper mesh or slug pellets at getting rid of the voracious molluscs.

What needs to be done is to find a way of organic farming that allows for the process to mechanised. Mechanised farming is the only way you will get large scale organic production.

Here's another thing for everyone to think about.

Right now, when you eat bread or anything containing wheat flour, you are eating GM.

This is resulting from the green revolution in the 1960s where they introduced a dwarfing gene into pretty much every principal wheat seed stock. Previously, the wheat would grow 6 foot high or taller, wasting a lot of energy and nutrients on growing tall. The dwarfing gene halted the growth at about knee height, allowing more nutrients and energy to go to the grains, and also less pressure would be put on the soil below, as the taller wheat would put heavier strain on the soil.

That's an example of responsible GM.

[harobed1156]

But here's the thing. If Organic crops do so much better than conventional crops, why are they so frigging expensive? I mean, I saw some organic cucumbers in the shop yesterday, and I would have bought them, but they were a full £1.20 more expensive than the conventional cucumbers. I can't afford to buy that.

I'm not sure, but here's one possibility. Organic distributors ask for the "market price", which is the highest price the consumer will bear. Conventional distributors get the "commodity price" which is the lowest price the growers will bear. This is almost a certainty in meat and dairy production, but it may not apply to produce.

I've noticed that there's little to no price difference in green onions, carrots, romaine lettuce, spinach, fancy (multicolored) bell peppers, and local tomatoes. The organic cucumbers and cauliflower do cost double, though, and many organic items aren't available all. Organic fruit and berries, for example - I don't ever see them.

[EternityTide]

see what I don't understand is why most tea (black tea) isn't organic. There is nothing that wants to eat tea aside from us crazy humans. Even goats don't eat it. In fact, they use goats as biological weed control in some countries, as the goats eat around the tea plants to eat the weeds, but leave the tea alone.

But going back to the thing about GM. If we had properly and responsiblyt modified crops, would the organic community accept it? or would they reject it because "Nature didn't create it"?

[harobed1156]

see what I don't understand is why most tea (black tea) isn't organic. There is nothing that wants to eat tea aside from us crazy humans. Even goats don't eat it. In fact, they use goats as biological weed control in some countries, as the goats eat around the tea plants to eat the weeds, but leave the tea alone.

But going back to the thing about GM. If we had properly and responsiblyt modified crops, would the organic community accept it? or would they reject it because "Nature didn't create it"?

My goats cleared 82 acres of noxious weeds and brush in just a few years, and really improved the quality of the pasture, since they don't care to eat grass. I'd like to see more goats used for that purpose, but they require very tight fencing to keep them contained.

I'm guessing the organic community would be pretty tough on what they consider "proper and responsible" GMOs. Something benign like heat resistance might be a place to start.

[EternityTide]

I know about goats. I've milked the stubborn whatsits for a good 5 years

[bethany]

I didn't think this topic would grow so much, but it's turning into a pretty interesting thread. I've actually learned quite a bit from you guys, and I'm impressed by the commitment to the conversation (emailing Food Alliance!). Thanks for keeping things topical and friendly. I love these informative conversations between curious strangers that seem to evolve so...

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Organically.

I'll see myself out.

[AmericanSteel]

There is something to be said for eating local, but that does not mean their food prep practices are any better than anyone else.

Talked to one farmer at the market about two weeks ago and asked if his goods were organic. He quickly said yes. I asked if they were GMO crops. He just as quickly said no. He was advertising it as Silver Queen which is a non-GMO product, though it is a hybrid. I then asked if he was "approved organic", which he then said no. The licensing requires are terribly expensive (which I also knew). So I could understand him not having the government's seal of approval. I then asked him what made his crop organic and he just stopped. I guess he was so use to people asking and he just said yes and no. No one was investigating further. I left and asked another farmer. Turns out he was just selling the crop, he did not know any better than the other guy. Third farmer I went to, which was an older woman, banged out all my questions like she was tapping a drum. They were non-GMO, she was not approved as organic but she told me what she did. I bought two bushels and it cost me a few dollars more in total than the others who had no clue. It was still about a third cheaper than buying from the box grocery store down the street. So my money went straight into the pocket of a local farmer instead of into the bank account of some chain store.

Now, she could have been lying through her teeth but you have to choose who to believe at some point. This all goes back to getting more involved in our food instead of just buying and not asking questions. I can easily recall my grandmother grilling the local butcher about what he was hawking or the farmers at the market about what they were selling. You just can't do that with a packaged product or someone stocking a shelf/bin.

[Ninjakebab]

I see the category 2a labeling of glyphosate is recent (march 2015). This is at least comforting, seeing as no "probable carcinogen" should ever be used when such a relatively large amount is able to be found systemically in the target crop, not to mention final product! Preemptive caution or worst-case scenario thinking (forgot the official term, haha) should always be applied when dealing with consumables. Frankly, I dislike the FA response

The World Health Organization does not list glyphosate as an acute toxin (category 1a or 1b), so Food Alliance does not specifically prohibit its use. WHO does list glyphosate as a probably carcinogen (category 2a), but the research is still on-going.

That is just giving up responsibility

I suspect it will soon be banned or heavily restricted. Would be nice to know if it is actually the true culprit behind the rapid increase in celiac disease. The report does seems substantial, and not a case of correlative results wrongly implying causation, even though the correlation is conveniently tight :lol:

Makes me wonder if one should explore grain products free from glyphosate exposure. Not that it probably matters much in my carcinogenic substance exposure quota, seeing as I'm currently working with polyaromatic hydrocarbons for organic photovoltaic research - aaaand often forget the gloves :geek: but aquiring gluten allergi ON TOP of cancer would be a serious bummer!

see what I don't understand is why most tea (black tea) isn't organic. There is nothing that wants to eat tea aside from us crazy humans. Even goats don't eat it. In fact, they use goats as biological weed control in some countries, as the goats eat around the tea plants to eat the weeds, but leave the tea alone.

Maybe use of fertilizer? I would think that to be one of the big downsides of organic crops, being forced to use manure or no nutrient supplements at all.

But going back to the thing about GM. If we had properly and responsiblyt modified crops, would the organic community accept it? or would they reject it because "Nature didn't create it"?

Most likely the latter :roll: we need a serious hearts and minds campaign to get through on GMOs and nuclear power (you may have noticed by now I am not against nuclear stuff). It's a bit hypocrytical though. People will each pesticides en masse all day, but hell no if they'll consume "genes" :roll: :lol:

I love these informative conversations between curious strangers that seem to evolve so...

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Organically.

I'll see myself out.

http://newnation.sg/wp-content/uploads/troll-face-small.jpg

[exeexe]

Organic fruit and berries, for example - I don't ever see them.

You never see organic bananas? Organic bananas are very common here.

[harobed1156]

I suspect it [glyphosate] will soon be banned or heavily restricted.

I though so too, but it doesn't look like it. I found out a few more facts: Monsanto's patent expired in 2000, and it's become the largest selling agrochemical product in the world, with China now being the largest producer. Regardless, it still earns Monsanto $3 billion in annual sales.

Lab researchers were caught routinely and deliberately falsifying toxicology test results provided to EPA on behalf of Monsanto in the 1970s. In the 1990s, lab researchers were fined and/or imprisoned for falsifying pesticide residue tests over ten years. Monsanto wasn't punished and other data they've collected over decades has been classified as "Trade Secrets" by EPA.

Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma is very high (double the risk vs. general population) among workers in constant contact with it, such as field workers, but the USA doesn't acknowledge that, the data is from Europe.

Bottom line is that there's been no independent review of the data in the USA. Instead, EPA accepted that glyphosate is unlikely to be dangerous based on "conflicting" and reports from industry insiders. The EPA-approval details are here, but it's disheartening to read.

[harobed1156]

Organic fruit and berries, for example - I don't ever see them.

You never see organic bananas? Organic bananas are very common here.

No, I never knew they existed. I don't shop at upscale grocers, though, so I've probably missed out on a lot of what's available. Out of habit I shop at an ordinary grocery store, the local farmers' market, and a local farmer/ friend who raises organic chickens and strawberries.

[Scyzara]

If organic food is as much of a trend in the US as it is in Europe atm, you could probably get literally everything in organic if you don't mind searching for it. Be it pineapples, bananas, dried goji berries, dragon fruits, Jerusalem artichokes or kaki persimmons.

If people demand it (which seems to be the case here), there will always be someone who sells it.^^

The only fruits I haven't seen in organic quality so far are durians and miracle fruits, but these two are very rare (and unaffordably expensive) in Germany anyway.^^

[pitzer67]

I use organic food products to maintain a healthy diet. The organic foods not only helps to maintain a healthy diet but also helps to maintain our body with the right amount of nutrition. I get all the certified organic food products for my needs from Giddy Yoyo in Canada. The high nutritious foods that are cultivated at fertile soils are ideal for peoples who are affected with chronic obesity problems.

[lilgrandad]

I find it odd that not a single lootable fooditem is organic. If you add moral or mood to the game consuming organic food could give a boost to them.

Organic food could also give increased health benefit for a day to the condition so that it only deteriorate at half speed.

Just like coffee benefits fatigue etc

Edit: This was originally posted in the wish list for the long dark

I understand your concern re; organic, but to have some 'wild' vegetables would be nice, cabbage, carrots, etc ..also salt for preserving meat.