Where will Perseverance Mills be located on the Great Bear map?

[Deer RudolF]

I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up before, but let's now summarize the bits and pieces of information from Wintermute, TFTFT, and the dev diaries.

It might be worth considering the location with the observatory that Jace was heading to. I'm guessing it could be some sort of transitional location, or even a full-fledged location, but it's also possible that the observatory is a sublocation of Perseverance Mills.

[UTC-10]

I would expect that Perseverance Mills would be in the north-eastern area of Great Bear Island. 

I would hope that Hinterland does put Perseverance Mills and the other areas of Wintermute Episode 5 onto the Survival Map but the possibility exists that they decide not to. 

 

[Veskaida]

I think there's 4 possibilities:

Minor location spoilers for Wintermute Episode 3 and 4

• Spoiler

  • Lower Great Bear Island (with Mystery Lake, etc.)
    • I think this is the most likely possibility since the Lower GBI map (below) has clear voids, and all prior regions with Wintermute episodes took place in Lower GBI.
      • North: There is lots of space on the map here, between AC and HRV, there aren't really any connections via road. I believe the road by the collapsed tunnel in northern MT leads to BR, not PM (given the Prison Van was traveling from there, and there are no unaccounted for BR roads). Narratively this is very close to Will (if he could somehow mountain climb or otherwise travel through impassible terrain), but would require Astrid to kayak around most of the map on the open ocean which seems a bit crazy.
      • East: north of DP. I find this quite plausible since DP is the only region in TLD with a broken bridge which we do not yet know where it leads, making it unique in the game.
      • South-West: near Bleak Inlet. geographically I think this fits Astrid very well, this would mean she'd travel via kayak across CH, Ravine and BI. However it doesn't really make any sense for Will, he would need to backtrack through many regions to reunite.
      • West: The least plausible. GBI is an island and TFT connects west to GBI (and TFT is expansive) so GBI would need to be horseshoe-shaped for ocean to be between BR and HRV, since we see Astrid travel to PM via kayak at the end of Episode 3, this seems pretty ridiculous personally since that would mean Astrid would travel across like 75% of the map's perimeter via kayak. This would also require Will to travel from Blackrock, back through Pleasant Valley, Mystery Lake, and at least 1 more region.
  • The Far Territory
    • I think this is the least plausible possibility from a narrative, gameplay, and technical sense. No other Wintermute episodes take place in TFT and given what we see occur in Episode 3 of Wintermute, I think it's safe to say an inland region like TFT is not what was portrayed, since Astrid clearly travels to PM via kayak. Technically it also would not make sense for Hinterlands to do this, since Wintermute and TFTFT are separate DLC.
  • PM has new map all to it's own.
    • I think that this is also a possibility given the size/complexity of Lower GBI's map and what is portrayed in-game. There isn't a lot more space to show connections, and currently the only extant road is in Desolation Point. In Episode 3 we see Astrid travel to Perseverance Mills via kayak, presumably on the ocean, so I think it is safe to say PM has to be coastal. Regarding Episode 4 where Blackrock is located and since we know Will and Astrid will be playable characters in Episode 5, obviously they have to meet somehow. Narratively I think this could be explained easily with a timeskip regardless of distance (like we've seen before in Wintermute) but I also feel that puts constraints on believability if these distances/obstacles are great.
  • PM is not added to the Survival Sandbox
    • Raph stated in this thread that it is not confirmed that PM will be added as a map to the Survival Sandbox. Personally I would be a bit surprised if this was the case, since it has been tradition for Wintermute and Survival  to share regions (albeit with reasonable changes), but it also sounds like Episode 5 of Wintermute is going to be larger scope than prior episodes, so I can understand that being a challenge. Just my interpretation of what Raph said, but it sounds to me like "Perseverance Mills" might be the name of a location in a region rather than the region itself.

tl;dr I think Perseverance Mills will likely be on the eastern part of the map, south of TWM and north of DP (possibly connecting to DP via the broken bridge in that region).

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

1 hour ago, Veskaida said:

tl;dr I think Perseverance Mills will likely be on the eastern part of the map, south of TWM and north of DP (possibly connecting to DP via the broken bridge in that region).

There's also an unused connecting point in Pleasant Valley through "End of the Road" on the east side of the region.

I'm sure the folks over at "The Long Development" mod would be happy to learn "The End of the Road" is the new connection, rather than the DP bridge which their mod uses.

But, it will be what it will be.

[Veskaida]

57 minutes ago, I_eat_only_wolf_meat said:

There's also an unused connecting point in Pleasant Valley through "End of the Road" on the east side of the region.

That's true as well! I had forgotten about that one. I think that also lends credibility to the idea of there being a region north of Desolation Point; though if that will end up being Perseverance Mills, was some cut content, or just dressing I guess we'll have to wait and find out.

[The Feng Hunter]

Based off Astrid’s trajectory through the Mine at the end of Ep 3 and Will’s trajectory at the end of Ep 2, Perseverance Mills would seem to be located somewhere through Coastal Highway. It would also be along the flight path Will and Astrid took during Ep 1. What we know about their destination — Forsaken Airfield (TFTFT) — is that they were likely coming in from NE to begin with. At the end of Ep 4, we see Will 

Spoiler

heading in the exact opposite direction, AWAY from the presumèd location of Perseverance Mills! Loose threads, indeed!

Therefore, I think it’s *possible* Perseverance Mills could be the tiny spot of unused land that lay between Desolation Point and Crumbling Highway. It’s always been on the map as an empty spot, never as a non extant connecting space. 

Similarly, the last place in Coastal Highway is known as “Commuter’s Lament,” meaning people are commuting from a large settlement to … all of the lumber mills, fishing operations, the gas station, &c?

It would fit — and it’s largely unexpected.

”End of the Road” is a good guess, but I think it’s too obvious; this said, Pleasant Valley also has a geographical issue to work out still — where does all the water go? Much like Zone of Contamination, I suspect the way *out* of PV will come in the form of a cave, and that cave already exists, a few clicks outside and upriver of Thomson’s Crossing.

So while PM is the ultimate destination, I don’t believe it’s that important to the overall arch to the story — rather, the substantial territory Will needs to cross would seem to be.

And the majority of that territory would seem to be a very large region located to the right of Pleasant Valley.  

[Veskaida]

16 hours ago, The Feng Hunter said:

Based off Astrid’s trajectory through the Mine at the end of Ep 3 and Will’s trajectory at the end of Ep 2, Perseverance Mills would seem to be located somewhere through Coastal Highway... I think it’s *possible* Perseverance Mills could be the tiny spot of unused land that lay between Desolation Point and Crumbling Highway... the last place in Coastal Highway is known as “Commuter’s Lament,” ... ”End of the Road” is a good guess, but I think it’s too obvious

I agree, I think either west of BI and south of FM, or north of DP and east of PV are the most likely locations. From revealed concept art of (I think it's safe to say is likely Perseverance Mills), it looks to be a reasonably sized town at least comparable with Thomson's Crossing, Coastal Townsite, and Milton from the number of homes.

I think it is still possible Hinterlands could modify the northern edge of the map to be a coastline if they desired, but from what I remember of the directions of rivers in BR and HRV (water flows downhill), I think the in-game representation is pretty clear at suggesting GBI continues further north, rather than e.g. rivers flowing north to suggest a coast might be nearby there.

Not 'entirely' sure I agree with these conclusions about Crumbling Highway though, but though I think most of your information is accurate. I my main disagreement is that I think Coastal Highway itself is likely the population center people are 'commuting' from to work in fishing, canning, lumber, etc. namely Hibernia and Last Resort Cannery.

I don't think there's a lot of real estate around Crumbling Highway itself, but rather north of DP along the coastline. We know Perseverance Mills (or at least it's region) is coastal from Episode 3, and for PM to be 'behind' Crumbling Highway would make it's geometry convoluted or landlocked.It also doesn't make a lot of sense based on in-game information, there are no roads going north from Crumbling Highway, just one zig-zagging road along the coast. We also can't e.g. see structures or effects of industry out-of-bounds up above Crumbling Highway. Not to say there 'cant' be something 'behind' Crumbling Highway, like some zig-zagging roadway down a mountain, but that doesn't seem represented in-game.

16 hours ago, The Feng Hunter said:

... along the flight path Will and Astrid took during Ep 1. What we know about their destination — Forsaken Airfield (TFTFT) — is that they were likely coming in from NE to begin with.

I don't think it is confirmed that Will's intended destination was Forsaken Airfield, but I like that theory:it makes lot of sense. "Forsaken Airfield" has been a part of TLD since the Kickstarter campaign (in concept art at least), and obviously the story starts with them flying to GBI and they crash before landing; but Will's aircraft is also a seaplane/floatplane so it is not unreasonably to think that it could land on open water (though probably not the surface of a lake during winter).

16 hours ago, The Feng Hunter said:

At the end of Ep 4, we see Will 

  Reveal hidden contents

heading in the exact opposite direction, AWAY from the presumèd location of Perseverance Mills! Loose threads, indeed!

 

I agree with Astrid and Will seeming to go in opposite directions in different Episodes (albeit with Will being taken there against his will (!!pun intended!!)). Though I think narratively it makes sense for Will and Astrid to reunite before TLD concludes, so personally I don't hold much weight behind their distance, traveling directions, etc. We've seen timeskips in the story before, and we know that we'll play as both Astrid and Will in Episode 5.

16 hours ago, The Feng Hunter said:

And the majority of that territory would seem to be a very large region located to the right of Pleasant Valley. 

Yeah, I agree this seems the most likely candidate by a longshot. If I was betting useless post-apocalyptic Canadian dollars only useable as tinder for starting campfires, this is where I'd bet Perseverance Mills is: along the eastern coast of GBI, north of DP and east of PV. 🍁💸

[rush247]

I'm sorry to mention this but thought it should be brought up in a thread like this.  Raph said they haven't decided on adding it to survival yet.

Despite the fact that some people might be upset and rail against us, I'm not promising to put the Wintermute regions into Survival. Yes, we have always done that historically but this is the last episode in the story and these are very important locations that may be too important to put into Survival mode. Putting that here as a "warning" to anyone who wants to get upset about it. May as well get upset about it now. I'm not saying they won't be added to Survival, but I'm not saying they will either. I haven't decided yet. Don't think that because I pulled the Cougar due to player upset that I'm now going to just do whatever the loudest complainers want.

source

Also before anyone goes and says that modders will do it eventually, they're likely going to have a hard time doing so.  Here's what Raph said when someone brought that up in the same thread.

This is kind of infuriating to read. If we don't want the regions in Survival, we don't want them in Survival. It's not up to modders to work around our intentions for the game and world. It's disrespectful to our vision and the experience we are crafting with TLD.

Now this doesn't mean that they won't do it at all, just don't expect it to be right away if at all.

[Leeanda]

1 hour ago, rush247 said:

I'm sorry to mention this but thought it should be brought up in a thread like this.  Raph said they haven't decided on adding it to survival yet.

 

 

source

Also before anyone goes and says that modders will do it eventually, they're likely going to have a hard time doing so.  Here's what Raph said when someone brought that up in the same thread.

 

 

Now this doesn't mean that they won't do it at all, just don't expect it to be right away if at all.

It's still open for speculation.. it'll still be in wintermute and we'll have to get there somehow.. wondering how will will find his way to Astrid.

[ThePancakeLady]

Pure speculation, but based on what happened in Episodes 3 & 4 of Wintermute:

Spoiler

Astrid arrives at Perseverance Mills, nearly frozen to death in the bottom of a boat. In Episode 3, she was last seen in the Orca scene along the coast in Coastal Highway (something else we do not see in Survival Mode- the Orcas). Many overturned boats there that she may have tried to use, and she found one that was not damaged beyond use/repair. Her story may have also taken her through CH, through Old Island Connector into DP- where there are also boats to be found. Her path  takes her by water to her final destination- the seas from Coastal Highway to Desolation Point to Perseverance Mills make sense. Across the broken bridge in DP, there is a road and open sea to the right. PM having a road that leads to it makes sense, and this may be the way that Will and Jace have to use to get to PM (if Jace survives the trip there). So, IMHO, the empty area with the road north of DP makes the most sense to me. It makes more sense to me for Will's journey there from Blackrock than having him travel all of the way to BI and to the west of BI. PM may be *just* north of the part of DP that we can currently play in in Survival Mode.

If the bridge is still out in DP in Episode 5, there is a possibility of a connection to PM for Will via Scruffy's cave as well.

Pure speculation, but it's what I am hoping for. 

[rush247]

1 hour ago, Leeanda said:

It's still open for speculation.. it'll still be in wintermute and we'll have to get there somehow.. wondering how will will find his way to Astrid.

Well we'll likely just go through a bit of a "transition cinematic" like we did for Ep 4.

[Leeanda]

4 minutes ago, rush247 said:

Well we'll likely just go through a bit of a "transition cinematic" like we did for Ep 4.

To some extent yes but I doubt it'll all be like that.. it'd be too easy to avoid wolves and bears lol

Edited November 4 by Leeanda

[The Feng Hunter]

2 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

To some extent yes but I doubt it'll all be like that.. it'd be too easy to avoid wolves and bears lol

Plus that would entirely defeat the whole arc of the thread of bringing them back together. Huge narrative fumble if they did it for us.

[Veskaida]

17 hours ago, rush247 said:

I'm sorry to mention this but thought it should be brought up in a thread like this.  Raph said they haven't decided on adding it to survival yet.

I already said this in my post here:

On 11/1/2024 at 8:07 PM, Veskaida said:

I think there's 4 possibilities:

Minor location spoilers for Wintermute Episode 3 and 4

•   Reveal hidden contents

  • Lower Great Bear Island (with Mystery Lake, etc.)
    • I think this is the most likely possibility since the Lower GBI map (below) has clear voids, and all prior regions with Wintermute episodes took place in Lower GBI.
      • North: There is lots of space on the map here, between AC and HRV, there aren't really any connections via road. I believe the road by the collapsed tunnel in northern MT leads to BR, not PM (given the Prison Van was traveling from there, and there are no unaccounted for BR roads). Narratively this is very close to Will (if he could somehow mountain climb or otherwise travel through impassible terrain), but would require Astrid to kayak around most of the map on the open ocean which seems a bit crazy.
      • East: north of DP. I find this quite plausible since DP is the only region in TLD with a broken bridge which we do not yet know where it leads, making it unique in the game.
      • South-West: near Bleak Inlet. geographically I think this fits Astrid very well, this would mean she'd travel via kayak across CH, Ravine and BI. However it doesn't really make any sense for Will, he would need to backtrack through many regions to reunite.
      • West: The least plausible. GBI is an island and TFT connects west to GBI (and TFT is expansive) so GBI would need to be horseshoe-shaped for ocean to be between BR and HRV, since we see Astrid travel to PM via kayak at the end of Episode 3, this seems pretty ridiculous personally since that would mean Astrid would travel across like 75% of the map's perimeter via kayak. This would also require Will to travel from Blackrock, back through Pleasant Valley, Mystery Lake, and at least 1 more region.
  • The Far Territory
    • I think this is the least plausible possibility from a narrative, gameplay, and technical sense. No other Wintermute episodes take place in TFT and given what we see occur in Episode 3 of Wintermute, I think it's safe to say an inland region like TFT is not what was portrayed, since Astrid clearly travels to PM via kayak. Technically it also would not make sense for Hinterlands to do this, since Wintermute and TFTFT are separate DLC.
  • PM has new map all to it's own.
    • I think that this is also a possibility given the size/complexity of Lower GBI's map and what is portrayed in-game. There isn't a lot more space to show connections, and currently the only extant road is in Desolation Point. In Episode 3 we see Astrid travel to Perseverance Mills via kayak, presumably on the ocean, so I think it is safe to say PM has to be coastal. Regarding Episode 4 where Blackrock is located and since we know Will and Astrid will be playable characters in Episode 5, obviously they have to meet somehow. Narratively I think this could be explained easily with a timeskip regardless of distance (like we've seen before in Wintermute) but I also feel that puts constraints on believability if these distances/obstacles are great.
  • PM is not added to the Survival Sandbox
    • Raph stated in this thread that it is not confirmed that PM will be added as a map to the Survival Sandbox. Personally I would be a bit surprised if this was the case, since it has been tradition for Wintermute and Survival  to share regions (albeit with reasonable changes), but it also sounds like Episode 5 of Wintermute is going to be larger scope than prior episodes, so I can understand that being a challenge. Just my interpretation of what Raph said, but it sounds to me like "Perseverance Mills" might be the name of a location in a region rather than the region itself.

However I also think that this thread was mainly discussing the speculative location for Perseverance Mills on Great Bear Island. We know that PM is 'somewhere' on GBI, e.g. even if it is never added as a Survival Sandbox map (remains exclusively Wintermute content) it will still obviously take place narratively 'somewhere' on the island. Survival and Wintermute share much of their map information, and since Survival has the most regional information available to it I think it is only logical to try and use that as a basis for creating as-complete of a map of GBI as possible.

[Pyroxene]

My guess is farthest away from the DLC areas.