To permadeath or not to permadeath

[conanjaguar]

This is a discussion that has popped up a few times that I've always found fascinating, specifically on the issue of: how difficult can a game be and still have permadeath? In my opinion, there is a very fine line that marks the boundary of where permadeath keeps you invested in the game and where it can just become downright frustrating.

An example is Subnautica's Hardcore mode. For some reason, I have racked up so many deaths (usually to stupid things like forgetting my air or swimming through gas pods or getting ambushed by a kamikaze fish) that it's really difficult to really enjoy a hardcore run.

What do you guys think? What makes TLD (even on harder difficulties) seem more "fair" than many other games that have permadeath?

[Leeanda]

I don't think it's fairer,I just think there's more choices because of the settings.. there's more than just difficulties,there's so many variations you can choose,so you know what could kill you and what couldn't.....  And once you get to know the game well enough then avoiding danger can be easy enough,(in most cases) .

I always die deliberately in any new game ,just to see what's what and if I'm honest just a bit too much enjoyment..  I don't mind dying whether it's my fault or not, except tech issues in some cases..   im happy with and without permadeath,

[Sito]

I have only had the cheat death option once. I chose to die because i got in to the situation myself while choosing to ignore my condition loss due to cold thinking I could make it to the next shelter when I had already passed a shelter that I could have warmed up in for a day. Stupidity on my part so I punished myself for it and started over.

[PilgrimReaper]

13 hours ago, Leeanda said:

And once you get to know the game well enough then avoiding danger can be easy enough,(in most cases) .

One of the reasons why I think the wildlife refresh will bring new life into this game. It doesn't get mentioned a lot, but I think it will be very much felt.

[Leeanda]

2 hours ago, PilgrimReaper said:

One of the reasons why I think the wildlife refresh will bring new life into this game. It doesn't get mentioned a lot, but I think it will be very much felt.

Oh definitely...  It might not get mentioned much but I'm sure plenty are thinking about it,I know I am😊

[Looper]

On 9/18/2024 at 6:54 PM, Leeanda said:

And once you get to know the game well enough then avoiding danger can be easy enough,(in most cases) .

One of the things that does this is the torch godmode! 

You can literally walk through af wolfpack with meat and guts if you just hav a lit torch. Old times one would listen for wolves, crawl around to avoid them. 

 Brace for the "just dont use it"-reply😄 

[Leeanda]

8 hours ago, Looper said:

One of the things that does this is the torch godmode! 

You can literally walk through af wolfpack with meat and guts if you just hav a lit torch. Old times one would listen for wolves, crawl around to avoid them. 

 Brace for the "just dont use it"-reply😄 

I'm on pilgrim anyway so not an issue with wolves...  And I'm on Xbox so sadly no mods..  

[Looper]

On 9/18/2024 at 6:33 PM, conanjaguar said:

What makes TLD (even on harder difficulties) seem more "fair" than many other games that have permadeath?

Actually I think it has to do with the early game being so fun. Going around searching for loot, getting your stuff. When you die its more like; lets see a new beginning!

[Lexilogo]

It's because if you die in TLD, it's usually because you made an obvious mistake beforehand. Eg. if you get mauled by a bear, moose, or whatever, you will always survive provided you have decent Condition. I'm pretty sure that same rule even applies to falling from ropes. The only things that will kill you in a flash in TLD are environmental hazards like falling/electricity, or really bad wolf struggle situations on higher difficulties.

Contrasting that to Subnautica, plenty of Leviathans can instakill you, and the ones that can't still have very deadly thresholds (eg. 90% HP) for killing you. Unless you're in a vehicle or base, you're terrified. The game is also built around encouraging you to take risks and go into increasingly freaky, dangerous zones, which doesn't fit a permadeath setup very well, which instead encourages you to be risk averse.

 

This is pretty important because losing Condition is a mistake you made, not a lost opportunity cost. If you get killed in a different survival game like Don't Starve, it's usually because you didn't craft enough armor or crock pot recipes in advance, or didn't prepare for a new season adequately, things that you might genuinely not know you were supposed to be doing. If you get killed in TLD, you have a very clear cause and effect, you were in bad shape from staying out in the cold and a wolf finished you off, simple.

[CarlaRis]

On 9/20/2024 at 6:41 PM, Looper said:

One of the things that does this is the torch godmode! 

You can literally walk through af wolfpack with meat and guts if you just hav a lit torch. Old times one would listen for wolves, crawl around to avoid them. 

 Brace for the "just dont use it"-reply😄 

Torchs for me, on interloper, are not a serious option; a good magazine of stones in rapid fire mode, however... 

[CarlaRis]

In Subnautica, that floater that lift you up to the surface saved my life several times, also on Hardcore. I think a well done permadeath mode is that one that make you consider all the game possibilities and mechanics. Maybe I would never have used that floater out of permadeath mode. In The Long Dark, many times you have only one chance for whatever, then you have to squeeze all available resources, even "invent" some of them.

I also played TLoU with permadeath enabled and hated with all my soul.

[Veskaida]

On 9/18/2024 at 9:33 AM, conanjaguar said:

This is a discussion that has popped up a few times that I've always found fascinating, specifically on the issue of: how difficult can a game be and still have permadeath? In my opinion, there is a very fine line that marks the boundary of where permadeath keeps you invested in the game and where it can just become downright frustrating.

What do you guys think? What makes TLD (even on harder difficulties) seem more "fair" than many other games that have permadeath?

I think it depends on the game director's goals and genre/target audience. For deadlier games like roguelikes/lites I think it is more reasonable for harsher punishments, where as more RPG-like games especially with long/tedious progression systems probably make more sense to lean towards a save/checkpoint system.

I think games like TLD walk the like between genres: TLD has been permadeath for most of it's history, and arguably still is (electively with Cheat Death).

• Very early TLD felt considerably more roguelike/lite to me, namely how difficult it was (early TLD imo was somewhere between Stalker and Interloper in difficulty) and "Feats" feel similar to a roguelite progression system.
• I feel the abundance of Skills, collectibles, crafting systems, and Tales all pushes TLD into a more RPG or simulation style game.

I think Interloper is probably about as hard as a "permadeath survival" game can be while still being fun for most plyers, though I can see Interloper features (like Condition recovery rate) being changed to make it even harder to a minority and still enjoyable to them. If Misery/Cheat Death afflictions are added to the Custom Sandbox I'll try those out and push that Interloper-fun question further.

Misery is an interesting experiment, but while it is fun to try a handful of times I do not find it anywhere near as engaging as Interloper long-term. bThe fixed spawn is a fair playing field to begin, but the (without spoilers) finality of the game mode makes long-term play and replay less like a permadeath survival game and more like a challenge mode or high score board; I have similar thoughts about Dead Man/No One Gets Out Alive, and consider them harder than Misery early-game but much easier late-game. Past a certain point micro-managing Food/Water/Cold to avoid 'any' Condition loss is more tedious than engaging, and that overstimulation quickly becomes unfun; also mechanics in NOGOA like the frequency at which wind direction changes are quite annoying to deal with long-term.

On 9/18/2024 at 9:33 AM, conanjaguar said:

What makes TLD (even on harder difficulties) seem more "fair" than many other games that have permadeath?

'Fair' for a game to me usually means how clearly and quickly the game communicates to the player when they've made a mistake. Randomness can also play a big role and can difficult to feel fair, and TLD has a lot of randomness: weather/wind, food poisoning, wolf scare/flee chance, rope climbing, beachcombing, etc. Generally though TLD is quite good at telling the player if that action they did was a mistake, though it is also a slow game at times so this feedback from this might take 12-24 in-game hours, but maybe that moves away from 'game fairness' and more into the strategic elements of decision making (e.g. if it was right to eat that meat and risk food poisoning, or walk with smelly food through that forest; to make a torch now and risk it being windy and blowing out, or take cold damage and travel to a safer firemaking area).

 

Edited November 2 by Veskaida