May Dev Diary

[ninja_rob]

As an old head gamer, i remember when a games sequel would take at least 7 years to be released and we as consumers would even forget about it at times, making it more special everytime we did hear about it or when it actually released!

So take your time. Enjoy the journey, because once your at your destination, everythings over. Build it the way you and your team want it, smooth it out and polish it, be proud of your work, let it make YOUS smile first, don't worry about anyone else... yet.

I may only be 100 hours into this game, but there are so many countless hours to be had as well. I remember the over 800 hours (easily) i put into the original release of Final Fantasy VII, and can safely say, i have hundreds of hours left to put into this game.

If people can play linear story based games over and over at nauseum, then why not forge forward on your own path, battling the harsh winter and surviving another day.

If you release something that you can sit back and smile about, and tell your kids proudly, "I helped make that game!", then there is no way this community won't be proud, accepting and more than willing to keep playing. 

- A Thankful Survivor

[thekillergreece]

Not surprised at all because it was very ambitious. I don't blame the devs, I think they were happy to pump out content within less than 3 months which, unfortunately, provided way too ambitious. It's okay though, I think it's better to get full fleshed contents per part with little to no bugs. Part 2 had nasty bugs so there's that.

[Tangarie]

1. I can't fully express how much I appreciate the honest and candid update.   If only more studios understood the value of providing regular, honest updates to customers!   When there are few or no updates, people tend to assume things.   So much respect for a studio can be lost just from lack of transparency.   By providing regular and candid updates it shows respect for those waiting for the game, respect for their time and money.   It also builds trust that the studio cares about me as a customer and that my faith in them is not misplaced.

2. Having worked in a software dev environment, I completely understand the frustration of not being able to achieve projected timelines, especially when those working on the updates and those waiting for them care so much about the game.  Yes, it's disappointing but no strict adherence to a timeline is a substitution for quality.  I never felt good about being forced to rush my work to meet a deadline and that type of frustration and disappointment I felt built up resentment to those in leadership who make those decisions.   By making the choice to re-evaluate and be honest with yourselves, to learn from the experience and make choices based on quality rather than speed, I think your teams working on the game will see that leadership cares and in turn may feel just as committed to the vision of creating something special.

3. I bought into the early access years ago and became one of my all-time favorite games.   The amount of value I have gotten out of this game for the money I put into it is just ridiculous.   I have zero issues paying for DLC, no matter how long it takes because I love the game.   The community that has developed around the game is passionate about it and has added to re-playability of it by creating challenges and alternate ways of playing.  Life can get busy and I may not be able to play as much as I'd like but I will always come back to it and will always support any new DLC or efforts by the studio on this game.

[Tangarie]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:09 AM, The Riddler said:

If everything was as fine as you say, there would be people on the forum, but there are a maximum of 50 people here. Therefore, not everything is as good as you think. And speaking of many people, I mean the majority, not the people from the forum.

Your logic "If everything was as fine as you say, there would be people on the forum ...  Therefore, not everything is as good as you think" is flawed.   You are assuming that everyone that enjoys a game will join and post on the forum.   That is not true.  I know many many people that never go to the forums, they just play the game and enjoy it.  If you would like to represent the opinions of all people who have bought the game and played it, you should base your conclusions on more people than just those in one forum.   It is my opinion that, if a survey were to go out to everyone that has this game and has played it more than a handful of hours, you would see a different story

[Bearimpaler101]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:12 AM, ChillPlayer said:

 

I have only read youre message @Admin and... I don't blame you at all I may be a switch player. But I only have 180 something hours on switch where as I have 958 hours on epic games (just needed to get that out). I think that the long dark is amazing and you can do much more with it. In time (also sorry I didn't know how erase the quote I did it by accident). So I do not blame you in fact I implore you (and your team) to take your time. would I like Windermere and tftft to be done now? Yes but no point doing it if you don't have the mental health to make it good. 😉

[ManicManiac]

I think folks ought to speak for themselves rather than trying to speak for others... especially when they seem to be implying that they know firsthand the options of "all the people not here."   

Bad form... I'd say.  Moreso when they just seem to be fixated on trying to throw shade at the Hinterland team.

Edited May 20, 2023 by ManicManiac

[Blizzard Walker]

On 5/18/2023 at 4:59 PM, UTC-10 said:

I am still trudging through Great Bear Island to rebuild 🚧 my bases and infrastructure (wow sounds so grandiose ) for most of the regions before heading to the Far Territories.  I am in no rush.  

I will be looking forward to the time when I can actually make my initial forays into the Far Territories.  

My approach as well UTC-10.  I still have five regions to explore on my first post update run - base building and hoarding at its best.  Most likely I will have all the transmitters up and running before I ever set foot into the Far Territories.

[Raphael van Lierop]

Hey @The Riddler -- you've been part of this community for a long time. You've probably never received the acknowledgement you feel you deserve; that seems to be behind a lot of your interactions with myself and other folks on the team and in the community. We see you. But you've always been more on the negative side, in a way that's not productive. 

As an example, I think your comments in this thread go beyond helpful criticism, and are more into just generally being a downer. This seems to be your standard MO. We get it, you don't like how we're handling things. That's fine. No need to get the whole community feeling down just because things aren't done exactly as you would like. It's not going to bring one more person in here. It's only going to actively alienate people who are looking for a friendly space to hang out.

Maybe take a step back and decide if you want to be here. It's not healthy for you, or anyone else here, for you to be so negative all the time. People are just trying to have fun and enjoy the game.

[Wish]

@Admin This is a sad post about a minimal/non-issue. Timelines get pushed back all the time--it's part of the nature of the creative process. Ever try to create or assemble something and it takes longer than you thought? We all have. 

Through the Long Dark, Hinterland has provided the most hours of content for the cost of any game I have ever played, and it is one of the best games out there. It is okay to try something and not have it work out. Ambition is good. Trying something and having it not work the way you want is normal. Anyone concerned about the devs not meeting X timeline for X content needs another hobby.

Hinterland: just like interloper players (myself one of them) do not represent most of the players but are often the loudest, the complaints on here about Tales and new content are a minority as well. Give yourself a break and know that your creative work is both amazing and appreciated. Take your time and make it great.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Wish

[Kayosiv]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:01 PM, Admin said:

I’m painfully aware that there are people out there, reading these words right now, feeling gleeful that we failed to deliver. I know there are a lot of “I told you they couldn’t hit this cadence” posts about to hit our forums and other channels.

If these people exist, I don't think you should bother to listen to them.

I was highly critical of Tales not being in Interloper difficulty settings, and now that that is changed, that alone was worth my money for the expansion pass. It has added so much to the game and given me a reason to go to every region. Everything else is just a bonus.

When storymode/Wintermute came out, it was bad. I played it a bit and was saddened that such a great company produced such a mediocre story mode, and assumed it was just a loss. And then you did the work and had the humility to re-make a better version of it. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't think of any other company that was willing to actually fix their mistakes to this degree.

You guys are going to fix this, and it doesn't matter if the update comes in 8 weeks or 22 weeks. If the content is excellent, and your content always is, I will keep recommending the game to people as one of the best out there for the genre.

[Bearimpaler101]

4 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Hey @The Riddler -- you've been part of this community for a long time. You've probably never received the acknowledgement you feel you deserve; that seems to be behind a lot of your interactions with myself and other folks on the team and in the community. We see you. But you've always been more on the negative side, in a way that's not productive. 

As an example, I think your comments in this thread go beyond helpful criticism, and are more into just generally being a downer. This seems to be your standard MO. We get it, you don't like how we're handling things. That's fine. No need to get the whole community feeling down just because things aren't done exactly as you would like. It's not going to bring one more person in here. It's only going to actively alienate people who are looking for a friendly space to hang out.

Maybe take a step back and decide if you want to be here. It's not healthy for you, or anyone else here, for you to be so negative all the time. People are just trying to have fun and enjoy the game.

Well put raph.

[Kranium]

Eh, The Riddler isn't really wrong, either. But this place is set up more as a "safe space", compared to, say, the Reddit TLD community (IMO the most neutral) & especially the crud I often find in the Steam discussions. (BTW, both of which are more active than here, for better or worse) I'll take the passive-aggressiveness here over the steam "discussions" any day.

 

Anyway, whatever. I like the openness of this dev diary OP & I hope the team just keep doing their thing. It's really a great game.

[Karl Grylls]

Love your enemies. They show you your mistakes.

Thanks for the update. I think it was clear to everybody that things aren't going well, so nobody should be surprised. But it's still good to hear a few words on that, just to see that something is going on. I really hoped that 8-10 weeks were realistic this time, but shortly after that, my life decided that i don't need time to play either..

So, i'm sad that things aren't according to plan, but for me it's more important that the studio keeps it's character and can stay independent. Speaking for Survival mode, I've already received an awesome game and everything that comes after is "just" a bonus. So take your time and i wish you best of luck for the upcoming challenges

[thekillergreece]

2 hours ago, The Riddler said:

You left reddit in 2017. I said that a lot of fan groups and wiki sites were closed. But as usual, you emphasized only the negative. Please comment on this. Tell us your opinion, why did everyone leave and shut down the sites?

Hi, I'm the bureaucrat of TLD's only known wiki (https://thelongdark.fandom.com/wiki/The_Long_Dark_Wiki). This wiki site has never been closed at any point of it's lifetime other than bureaucrat changes (I took over on 2017).

Just pointing it out, thanks.

[Erroneus]

Thanks for the update. What you are doing is the right move, as nobody wants subpar quality and a team burned out, for this game we all love.

And thanks for the 60FPS update, as someone who has been dying to get that fix, it's nice to get an update and off course it makes sense to release with the tales ep3 👍

 

[Leeanda]

6 minutes ago, The Riddler said:

Please stop pursue me. You wrote to me first. If you don't understand what's going on, please don't write to me.

This is an open forum and people can express their constructive criticism here.

I was in two minds whether to write that or not but I just felt that you talking about the game and sites as dying is very demoralizing and it's not constructive at all.   But I have now deleted it . I will not comment any further.. 

[Karl Grylls]

the tone of how things are being said is more impotant than the actual topic. Or in other words: the way how something has been said has a bigger effect than what has been said

[conanjaguar]

TLD has been around for almost a decade by now. It seems only natural that interest should wane, especially considering that it’s a very niche game.

Niche games tend to have very loyal “cult fanbases”. For example, Interest in Subnautica has waned since initial release (I think also in 2014), but it’s still going strong. It’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

Likewise, interest in TLD has waned a bit over the years, but it’s not dying in the foreseeable future.

Through fire and steel, through cold and rain, through… well, everything, Hinterland and TLD have always come through. I don’t see why the current situation is any different.

Take your time, Hinterland. The end result will be worth it.

[Raphael van Lierop]

I'll comment on a few of your statements, @The Riddler, because I think plenty of folks in this community would like to know more, and then you're going to take a little break to give this community a breather.

***

Re: the notion that "TLD is dying":

The real test of the game's health is in the active player count (CCUs). Across all platforms, the active player counts are as high as they have ever been. The release of TALES has given some new life for a core group of Survival players, and the free updates to Survival that we've included with each Part have also helped. We have work to do to get our Switch players in the fold, as noted in the dev diary. 

A certain amount of churn is entirely expected of a 10-year old game, and I would argue the longevity and vibrancy of this community is staggering for an offline game.

***

Re: the notion we "abandoned reddit":

Years back, around the "countdown" fiasco, we had a very rough time on Reddit. The dev team in general was attacked, and I personally received a lot of hatred, including death threats. At the time, this was very surreal. It helped illustrated how toxic unmoderated communities can be at times. We decided then, that we would not give our time to platforms that we couldn't moderate ourselves, and so we don't spend much time on Reddit. We also chose not to set up a community on Discord when it was growing at the time either, because of its reputation for having a generally toxic community base (that has probably since changed).

Reddit has rules as part of their "reddiquette" that strongly discourages companies from moderating their own communities. Moderation by "outsiders" is strongly frowned upon. This partly explains the above issue.

That said, the fact that the TLD reddit community is large and thriving (growing) is a direct outcome of the game's growth. Exactly the opposite of a game that is dying. The TLD subreddit is also managed extremely well by the mods there -- they have done a fantastic job over the years. We are not as siloed from them as you might think. I'm in regular contact with the moderating team there, and they with us. And recently, I've even dipped my toes back in there to respond to some comments about TALES. But they are self-sufficient, self-managed, and are handling things on their own, which is how Reddit prefers it.

But it's not a community that we (as Hinterland) will generally participate heavily in, for the reasons I mentioned above. We can't protect our players when they are in there, because we can't moderate it. So we won't put our (limited) resources into growing it. We can't help much there (and it doesn't seem we are needed, anyway).

In general, I will say that it's absolutely silly to look at Reddit as a whole and not see that it's one of the biggest online communities in the world and that people join it for a million different reasons, then filter down into sub communities around things they like. So of course as Reddit grows, the TLD subreddit will also grow, because our player base is always growing too.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but since we DO moderate our Steam community, and we moderate this community, it also happens that folks who are "moderated out" of those communities, largely for being jerks, may end up finding their way to one of the unmoderated communities. So some of the growth of those platforms is due to our moderation decisions, which we undertake (generally) with a light touch but mostly to, honestly, move the haters and toxic people out. That doesn't mean reddit is full of jerks and haters. It just means that we would prefer to have a smaller community that is full of quality people, then allow noisy jerks to make life unpleasant for other people. And, it may come as a surprise, but there are folks out there who do not want to be moderated. They are "chaos agents" and just want to create drama and be toxic to people -- that's how they get energy and meaning in their lives. But we won't let them do that here.

***

Re: the notion that other TLD communities are dying:

I can't speak to this, but for the same reasons as I think it's obvious why Reddit would be growing, I also assume other TLD communities are growing, because the active player base is vibrant. I can't speak to why some sites may have been taken down (if they have?), but perhaps this is part of a game that has been live for nearly 10 years now. I know for myself, I still think about people who were super active in the community in the early years (around Kickstarter, for example), who are not longer really playing the game. It's sad, but people move on, they find new games to love, new hobbies, or they decide they don't want to be online anymore. 

I do know our Steam community is as active as it has ever been. It's tougher for console players to find community since it doesn't really exist on the console platforms, and I hope many of them have found their way here, but it's equally likely many of them have found their way into the TLD subreddit, or other places. And that's ok. Just because we don't actively moderate those places, doesn't mean they aren't still part of the TLD community. 

***

As a general note on our view on community, and what it means for us (Hinterland), I think you'll find most of the info you need in this recent job posting for a community manager. We're making some internal moves/promotions and that has created a spot in the community team. We're also thinking a lot about our next games and how those will impact the community here, which is is the only community hub that will be for ALL Hinterland games and ALL Hinterland players across all platforms. I think the third paragraph in particular is probably relevant to this discussion: https://hinterlandgames.com/careers/community-manager

So, perhaps you will see some changes here over the next months and years?

***

As a general comment about this place -- I've always seen these forums as "our" forums. Our approach has been to try to create a safe, positive, inclusive space for folks to share their love of TLD, and hopefully other things too, and to be supportive of each other, which I have often seen. I've seen friendships form, people call out others when they are falling down, people stepping in to pick others up when they are in trouble and need help, and people keeping each other honest. We've always measured the success of this particular part of the community, the "official community", as being about quality, not quantity. And we've always seen it as a kind of safe haven, quiet corner, for people who don't feel they can face the often raucous and not always pleasant communities that exist on Steam, Reddit, elsewhere.

So we're fine if things are a little more quiet over here. Those places can be the wild stadium with screaming fans, and this place can be your favourite quiet coffee shop, where you can have a real deep chat with someone else, and you can actually hear them. 😇 You can come back, become a regular, see familiar faces, and feel a connection as time passes.

Isn't that what a community is?

[Raphael van Lierop]

8 hours ago, thekillergreece said:

Hi, I'm the bureaucrat of TLD's only known wiki (https://thelongdark.fandom.com/wiki/The_Long_Dark_Wiki). This wiki site has never been closed at any point of it's lifetime other than bureaucrat changes (I took over on 2017).

Just pointing it out, thanks.

Thank you for everything you do to support and maintain the wiki! 🫶

[Sito]

Thanks for shutting up @The Riddler

These kind of people seriously annoy me. I like this forum and they just want to throw garbage on it.

Sorry you had to spend you Sunday morning dealing with it.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Sito

[Leeanda]

Thank you @Raphael van Lieropfor taking time to post and keeping us informed  It's much appreciated..I can imagine you have little free time as it is.. 

This forum is like my second home and it saddens me when it becomes like a battlefield, albeit a small one.  

I do like your coffee shop analogy 🙂.    All we need now is some of htls mugs with some acorn coffee and a juicy bear steak.

 

[ajb1978]

Unfortunately the idea of going back to the release cadence of the early access game just isn't feasible. Back then, you only had to worry about PC releases. Now though in addition to Windows you have Mac and Linux ports, not to mention all the console versions. And the Switch port as I recall was particularly nasty to develop and took ages to get stable.

Basically there are too many variables now. Too many ways things can go wrong. That same release cadence from the early days simply can't work now.

[RedFox]

Late to the party, but still. The only thing I've had an issue with up to this point is that Interloper was left out of the last update of the Tales, but you and your team fixed that very quickly. While it sucks to hear that the 8-10 week update period is a bust, at the same time that's understandable. You set a goal, tried to attain it, and didn't quite reach it. These things happen, but at least you took it upon yourself to reach out to let everyone know instead of just making people wait and wait with no information like many game companies do. I think I can safely say that many of us have always appreciated the fact that Hinterland is up front about issues and are honest with us when things happen. I will still be here when the next updates come out. Who knows, maybe after not being so rushed to make the 8-10 week release date happen things will naturally come at a faster pace. Some people work well under pressure, some don't. Eagerly awaiting to see what you have in store for us next!

Edited May 22, 2023 by RedFox

[HyperLordBender]

I think the game devs could use a system like Trello to show what progress has been made. I see countdowns and time frames as old and no longer as reliable as they used to be. Things like Trello are where game devs should be going towards. Why? Because it lets you show your users what is being done, how its being done and even when its done. This system is not designed for large scale ideas like the entirety of Tales. Its for little things. Like an issue tracker but for progress. 

To me a visual aid as to whats being done is far better than any time frame or countdown as it is immutable. You can make large projects and then smaller things inside of that, and even smaller things inside of that (continuing like a nesting doll). But I am rambled a bit on this. 

As for whats been released its great. However it has issues. Things like travel time are an issue (time it takes to get to the Airfield). The global loot refresh was interesting but seems to have some issues like the hacksaw being far more rare and mementoes often just outright not spawning in Mountain Town.

Anyways, think about the Trello thing. If it would work for the team