My attempt at making a shotgun viable, because people keep asking for it (why?)

[JackTrysGames]

The devs have said that every single weapon needs a purpose.

The Rifle is designed for long range hunting, the Revolver for close range defense.

So the Shotgun also has a purpose- taking down big game.

It'd probably shred anything at wolf size, and rabbits wouldn't even drop carcasses, but a bear or moose would be stopped in its tracks and might just fall over from the impact.

Of course, this'd damage the pelts and the meat, but if you're just trying not to get your ribs broken and/or your run prematurely ended, accept no substitute.

Not looking for anything crazy here- a single shot break-action shotgun, about as rare as a Flare Gun if not rarer.
Shotgun Shells would be rarer than flare gun rounds, and only found in very specific locations.

 

Potential Spawn Locations:
>The Hunting Lodge
>Hunting Blinds (very rare)
>HRV
>Ash Canyon
>Blackrock
>Hunting Prepper Caches
 

They could also be hung on weapon racks like rifles and bows.

 

Also, final warning note: DO NOT make its capacity any larger than one round.
I can guarantee with 100% accuracy people will stage rush its location every run like it's made of solid gold if you do.

I used the shotgun. You know why? Cause the shotgun doesn’t miss. And unlike the hybrid taser it stops a criminal in their tracks in two hits.

[ManicManiac]

On 1/3/2021 at 2:50 PM, ManicManiac said:

I'm not in favor of more guns...

I'll rehash what I've discussed about this subject before in many, many previous threads (and I recommend the search function as there has been a lot of really good discussion about this exact subject in several of those previous threads):

I think that with the addition of the Revolver I think we have all the weapons/defenses we could ever really need in this game. 

I am wary about stuffing in too many weapons into the game.  I am worried that adding too much could undermine the intended experience of the game.  I don't want to ever feel really safe in this game, the fun of playing for me is the constant threat and danger... the struggle of not being super well equipped.

I think it serves the game better to have to be cautious and aware of surrounding wildlife.  I wouldn't want to be able to roam around with impunity because I know I can just drive off/kill anything that crosses my path.  I'm not saying this suggestion would do that... I'm just concerned about the cumulative effect on gameplay of having too many weapons and defenses.

I am concerned about having too many weapons in the game... I don't really want to run around feeling like Gordon Freeman in this game... because I don't think it's that kind of game.

Also, it goes back again to that feeling of vulnerability.  I think if we have too many weapons, we end up feeling like we're safe...on top of the food chain again.  I'd argue that part of the heart of this game is the feeling of isolation and vulnerability.  That we don't have everything we need to be on top... that we have to struggle, move carefully, and gauge risk and reward.  I tend to think that adding a more and more weapons will undermine and greatly take away from that.  Which is why I don't think we need any more of them.

  
also... I think the guarantee of 100% accuracy, would undermine the need for individual player skill.  Which to me, would seem like a determent to the game... not a benefit.

[JackTrysGames]

On 9/10/2022 at 8:09 PM, ManicManiac said:

I think it serves the game better to have to be cautious and aware of surrounding wildlife.  I wouldn't want to be able to roam around with impunity because I know I can just drive off/kill anything that crosses my path.  I'm not saying this suggestion would do that... I'm just concerned about the cumulative effect on gameplay of having too many weapons and defenses.

Look, when you're stuck between a rock and a freight train of hate and hunger, you can't just "be cautious and aware of surrounding wildlife". There have been multiple situations where I was looting in far off areas only to get pinned by a bear or a moose.

 

On 9/10/2022 at 8:09 PM, ManicManiac said:

I am concerned about having too many weapons in the game... I don't really want to run around feeling like Gordon Freeman in this game... because I don't think it's that kind of game.

I am too. This was just me trying to appease the masses.

 

On 9/10/2022 at 8:09 PM, ManicManiac said:

also... I think the guarantee of 100% accuracy, would undermine the need for individual player skill.  Which to me, would seem like a determent to the game... not a benefit.

What, did you read that as weapon accuracy?

I was making a prediction. I was 100% sure people would immediately run to the shotgun spawns if they made its capacity any larger than one round.

Please try to read what I say before you comment on it.

[ManicManiac]

8 hours ago, JackTrysGames said:

when you're stuck between a rock and a freight train of hate and hunger, you can't just "be cautious and aware of surrounding wildlife".

I've found myself in that kind of situation quite often, and yes... you can.  I do precisely that, rather frequently and it works well.  
If a player chooses, evade and avoid strategies are very effective.  It also serves player to be able to choose where and how a confrontation plays out.
I think the game gives the player far more agency than most give it credit.  In my experience, it's not difficult to avoid getting ambushed/mauled/trampled by the hostile wildlife.  The weapons we have are all effective... I just don't think a shotgun is needed (perhaps even detrimental).  I rather like the balance Hinterland has found already, and I see no benefit to stuffing more gun into the game.

 

8 hours ago, JackTrysGames said:

This was just me trying to appease the masses.

I'm far less interested in appeasing the masses... I'd rather have the game that Hinterland has so wonderfully crafted already.
I think many games fall into the trap of trying to stuff in too many gimmicks and/or features.  More often than not, I'd say that practice tends to ruin a good premise... and turn a great game into something more middling/mediocre.  To paraphrase the old saying... "Try to please all, and you will soon please none."

Please don't take it personally, I just don't agree with your suppositions. 
Fair enough, I miss read your closing statements.  I can certainly acknowledge that  

[JackTrysGames]

On 9/11/2022 at 11:26 AM, ManicManiac said:

I've found myself in that kind of situation quite often, and yes... you can.  I do precisely that, rather frequently and it works well.  
If a player chooses, evade and avoid strategies are very effective.

Look, mate. Not all of us are legends who can solo As The Dead Sleep in under 4 in game hours with nothing but a match and a can of beans.

Some of us actually have to face threats head on, and aren't able to immediately pop all of the emergency stims on Great Bear and run a mile and a half.

So the alternative is a big, heavy weapon with big, heavy rounds that kicks like a mule and is useful for next to nothing aside for taking down big game.

On 9/11/2022 at 11:26 AM, ManicManiac said:

I'd rather have the game that Hinterland has so wonderfully crafted already.

I have a feeling that's what they said about the Revolver, and yet it too has found its niche.

Either way, time capsule is there if you want to go back to pre-Steadfast Ranger for a nearly gunless game.

On 9/11/2022 at 11:26 AM, ManicManiac said:

To paraphrase the old saying... "Try to please all, and you will soon please none."

"Remind yourself that overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer." -The Ancestor, Darkest Dungeon

"If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." -Henry Ford

[Leeanda]

Please be nice....  This is just a game after all... No offence hinterland,it's an awesome one.🙂.  But there are bound to be different strategies for everyone . 

I'm a trigger happy kind of girl who'd love to shoot that bear in the face with a double barrel but I also have learnt that it's not needed and you can ,for the most part evade and avoid .   

Either way is fine so there's really no need to be arguing about it. There are far more important things in life ... Again ,no offence devs.🙂

[APixelatedLemon]

While I do like your take on a shotgun, I think as of right now we have enough proper firearms for now.

I have said this a few time in the past, but I really feel like Hinterland should focus on adding more wildlife before adding more proper firearms so it feels more balanced.

[conanjaguar]

7 hours ago, APixelatedLemon said:

Hinterland should focus on adding more wildlife before adding more proper firearms so it feels more balanced.

Agreed. 

More guns will be more fun with new critters to shoot said guns at.

[JackTrysGames]

21 hours ago, Leeanda said:

I'm a trigger happy kind of girl who'd love to shoot that bear in the face with a double barrel

"Also, final warning note: DO NOT make its capacity any larger than one round.
I can guarantee with 100% accuracy people will stage rush its location every run like it's made of solid gold if you do."
-Me, at the beginning of this discussion
 

21 hours ago, APixelatedLemon said:

While I do like your take on a shotgun, I think as of right now we have enough proper firearms for now.

I have said this a few time in the past, but I really feel like Hinterland should focus on adding more wildlife before adding more proper firearms so it feels more balanced.

Would you have said this about the Revolver pre-Steadfast Ranger?

 

13 hours ago, conanjaguar said:

More guns will be more fun with new critters to shoot said guns at.

I honestly doubt they're going to add more wildlife, aside for maybe a fox.

[Leeanda]

2 minutes ago, JackTrysGames said:

"Also, final warning note: DO NOT make its capacity any larger than one round.
I can guarantee with 100% accuracy people will stage rush its location every run like it's made of solid gold if you do."
-Me, at the beginning of this discussion
 

Would you have said this about the Revolver pre-Steadfast Ranger?

 

I honestly doubt they're going to add more wildlife, aside for maybe a fox.

I was just trying to make a point, I'd happily blow the bears face off with anything. .   I'm not sure why you seem so... Angry.  But I won't engage in conversations of that tone unless it's in defence of others.   

[SpanishMoss]

Are we forgetting the distress pistol? 

There is no role for the shotgun to fill. Whether you like it or not, TLD is a difficult game. If anything they should be making it harder rather than easier, so the veterans have more challenges to overcome, and the new players can avoid or learn to work with. 
 

Timberwolves are a perfect example, a new challenge for veterans to overcome. And how did they balance it? Noisemakers. 
(I'm ignoring the cheesy methods of avoiding timberwolves)

If you were to add a shotgun, how would you balance it? Making it have just one shot isn't enough, there has to be some challenge to it, some skill required. If you ran up to a bear and shoot it in the face and it always dies, that's too easy. If you shoot it in the face and it might die, then you'd certainly get mauled, and that's teaching players bad habits. There's just no way to balance that.
 

While I'd agree a shotgun would fit the ATMOSPHERE of TLD, it wouldn't fit the GAMEPLAY.

There are already plenty of methods for dealing with wildlife. 

I know it's crazy, but violence isn't always the answer. Simple crouch evasion works, and fire is a very effective deterrent as well. 
 

If you are struggling with these methods, then the current weapons address these problems. 
 

A shotgun just seems like a guaranteed "Get out of jail free" card to stop a wolf with no skill. 
 

If the game is too hard, try a easier difficulty, or custom. 

[APixelatedLemon]

6 hours ago, JackTrysGames said:

Would you have said this about the Revolver pre-Steadfast Ranger?

Yes.

[SpanishMoss]

what I meant was while it might fit the atmosphere of the game, it doesn't make and sense gameplay wise. It be unbalanced, and isn't needed. 

[SpanishMoss]

For something to be added to the game, it must both fit the:

- ATMOSPHERE, So not something high-tech or modern for example

- And the GAMEPLAY, Something that has a clear and distinct use, adds to the game, and solves a problem/difficulty currently in the game.

An item/concept must check all these boxes to be a worthy addition. These are no hard and fast guidelines, but are true for all the items hinterland has added, so it would be logical for suggestions to follow them as well.

The recent addition: Ballistic Vest, fits the atmosphere because it's found at a prison, where protection like that might be found.

And if fits the gameplay because newer plays who get jumped often suffer lots of damage, so the vest helps a lot. It adds a dedicated "armor" to the game, where there wasn't much before. And it is distinct In it's role, nothing else in the game even comes close to its level of protection.

While veterans may scoff at the thought of using it, it can be useful for players who find avoiding wolf fights a challenge.

[k0s0ff]

Hello everyone.

I've been playing since 2017. I hear about the shotgun very often. I read all the pros and cons with pleasure. And I want to add from myself. A shotgun will be needed only if the developers open up the possibility for us to hunt birds. I just refuse to think of hunting crows with a powerful rifle or revolver, for example. And who will use it later and how, this is like all the mechanics in the game, at their personal discretion.

[Bimbobjoejr.]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:42 PM, k0s0ff said:

Hello everyone.

I've been playing since 2017. I hear about the shotgun very often. I read all the pros and cons with pleasure. And I want to add from myself. A shotgun will be needed only if the developers open up the possibility for us to hunt birds. I just refuse to think of hunting crows with a powerful rifle or revolver, for example. And who will use it later and how, this is like all the mechanics in the game, at their personal discretion.

I agree here, bird hunting is the only way to make the shotgun a reasonable addition without adding it just to add it. Every weapon has its place: rifle, powerful hunting tool but with scarce ammo; revolver, good for defense and warding off predators; bow, good for long term hunting and survival; flare gun, defense only, ward off everything. Not trying to shoot down the idea, I'd love to have a shotgun in the game, but the criteria needed to justify a new weapon just isn't there. So until we have a mechanic, such as bird hunting, the shotgun isn't an entirely necessary, nor justified addition.

[ajb1978]

Shotguns have been romanticized by video games (I think Doom deserves most of the credit there), but the reality is they're either a powerful long-range weapon (slugs, which makes them like a rifle), or they're a medium-short ranged deterrent, which makes them like the revolver or distress pistol.

With slugs, you're basically just using it like a rifle, so...yeah. No point.

With shot, the pellets spread out to maybe about a foot, but because the individual pellets are so much smaller they reach terminal velocity much faster. So yeah, shot is going to start losing its effectiveness at 50 meters, and beyond 100 it's basically just like getting shot with a bunch of BB's. (I got hit by birdshot once while on a duck hunting trip in my teens and it didn't even penetrate my coat.) And also not all shotguns are created equal--are you using birdshot or buckshot? What gauge? 

So the next most common argument I've heard is "OK well why not use shotguns to hunt birds?" Great! You mean those crows circling overhead that would be absolutely disintegrated by a shotgun? Or all the other birds that are thousands of miles away, having migrated south for the winter? There are no birds to hunt, not anymore, and introducing birds wouldn't make any sense because of migration patterns. Shot isn't going to be effective against anything else we have in the game.

So basically what we have here is just another rifle...so why bother at all?

[Bimbobjoejr.]

34 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

So the next most common argument I've heard is "OK well why not use shotguns to hunt birds?" Great! You mean those crows circling overhead that would be absolutely disintegrated by a shotgun? Or all the other birds that are thousands of miles away, having migrated south for the winter? There are no birds to hunt, not anymore, and introducing birds wouldn't make any sense because of migration patterns. Shot isn't going to be effective against anything else we have in the game.

I mean, bird shot has lots of small pellets designed to create a wide pellet pattern to better take down birds, and with the smaller pellets and the distance the crows hover at in game, I wouldn't think they'd be too damaged by bird shot. Besides you could maybe harvest a significant amount of feathers from the carcass to put towards your bow and arrow.

And when it comes to other birds, one thing you have to remember is that the wildlife in this game are all off of their normal "patterns", so hinterland could cook up some story as to justify their existence, or at least make it make sense in the game's realm. 

I respect your opinion but you gotta remember that the wildlife is off it's rocker in this game, and bird shot wouldn't blow up a bird (you even made a point of how bird shot didn't even pen your jacket)

46 minutes ago, ajb1978 said:

(I got hit by birdshot once while on a duck hunting trip in my teens and it didn't even penetrate my coat.)

 

[Kranium]

Just a few thoughts:

 

Re: realism: Every single livestock farm here in BC has at least 2 firearms on hand: a .22 rifle and a 12ga shotgun. Bare minimum, full stop.

 

So, IDK about a .22 in game; perhaps if they added squirrels and/or marmots & such, but whatever, most of us aren't looking for that. But a shotgun could fit in OK. I'd do 2 things: 1) single shot break action only. Totally legit, very common IRL. and 2) You can only carry one long gun at a time. So you hafta pick between the hunting rifle or the shotgun. Perhaps you'd need to find/craft a scabbard to carry either one?

 

The only other question would be what kind of ammo. Slug, buckshot, or birdshot. That has major implications on it's use case.

 

Take the above into consideration, and I feel it could be balanced just fine. Well, maybe only if they finally introduced cougars...

Edited November 14, 2022 by Kranium

[conanjaguar]

@Kranium

I like the idea of only being able to carry one long gun at the time. It seems reasonable; too many games transform your character into a walking arsenal able to carry hundreds of pounds worth of weapons, ammunition, and body armor.

If we sawed down the barrel and stock of the shotgun, it would likely make a very effective weapon in struggles.

[Kranium]

Here in Canada, we have a shorter legal barrel length allowance than in the USA, when it comes to shotguns. Believe it or not. My friend has one of these, it's crazy! But perfectly legal & non-restricted, even.

 

Sulun Arms SS-211. Over/under, 12ga, break action, 23" overall length. Yes, that's the entire length, from buttstock to barrel end!

 

[stratvox]

On 11/13/2022 at 6:40 PM, ajb1978 said:

(I think Doom deserves most of the credit there)

Oh that's got the ring of truth. Sure is why I love the ol' video game shotgun.

On 11/14/2022 at 2:16 PM, Kranium said:

Here in Canada, we have a shorter legal barrel length allowance than in the USA, when it comes to shotguns. Believe it or not. My friend has one of these, it's crazy! But perfectly legal & non-restricted, even.

 

Sulun Arms SS-211. Over/under, 12ga, break action, 23" overall length. Yes, that's the entire length, from buttstock to barrel end!

 

I could see this plus the bow being a very effective daily carry in the game.

Maybe too effective. As was said above, maybe with the introduction of mountain lions...

[JackTrysGames]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:08 PM, Leeanda said:

I'm not sure why you seem so... Angry.

Wouldn't you be a little bit annoyed if people didn't completely read what you suggested and took it out of context?

On 9/15/2022 at 2:10 PM, SpanishMoss said:

If you were to add a shotgun, how would you balance it? Making it have just one shot isn't enough, there has to be some challenge to it, some skill required.

Simple. Remove the distress pistol's bleedout. The shotgun is a single shot break action firearm that's heavy, kicks like a mule, is relatively inaccurate beyond a certain distance, and has heavy ammo. It also shreds the internals of the wildlife it hits, which has a chance to render the pelt and some meat completely unusable.

On 9/15/2022 at 2:10 PM, SpanishMoss said:

I know it's crazy, but violence isn't always the answer. Simple crouch evasion works, and fire is a very effective deterrent as well. 

You can't always evade. You can't use fire to deter a charging bear.

On 11/15/2022 at 3:17 PM, stratvox said:

As was said above, maybe with the introduction of mountain lions...

So now you have three large predators to worry about. Bears, moose, and mountain lions.

And if any of the three charge at you, and you don't have a shelter nearby or an ultra-rare distress pistol in your holster, you're done for. Run over. Return to menu, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

On 9/16/2022 at 3:33 PM, SpanishMoss said:

The recent addition: Ballistic Vest, fits the atmosphere because it's found at a prison, where protection like that might be found.

And if fits the gameplay because newer plays who get jumped often suffer lots of damage, so the vest helps a lot. It adds a dedicated "armor" to the game, where there wasn't much before. And it is distinct In it's role, nothing else in the game even comes close to its level of protection.

While veterans may scoff at the thought of using it, it can be useful for players who find avoiding wolf fights a challenge.

The shotgun fits the atmosphere because it's implied to be a hunting weapon for shooting birds in warmer weather. In some cases, it's implied to be a home defense weapon.

And it fits the gameplay because newer players who get jumped by bears and moose often don't really care about drops, so the shotgun is a viable deterrent. It is distinct in its role, nothing else in the game even comes close to its amount of damage, but nothing else reduces drops either.

While veterans may scoff at the thought of using it, it can be useful for players who find avoiding bears a challenge.

On 9/15/2022 at 6:40 PM, APixelatedLemon said:

Yes.

At least someone's aware of the irony of this situation.

On 9/15/2022 at 2:10 PM, SpanishMoss said:

A shotgun just seems like a guaranteed "Get out of jail free" card to stop a wolf with no skill.

It's not supposed to be used against wolves. It's supposed to be used against bears.

That's like saying the Rifle was a "get out of jail free" card pre-Steadfast Ranger because you can shoot wolves with it.

On 11/13/2022 at 8:09 PM, Kranium said:

You can only carry one long gun at a time. So you hafta pick between the hunting rifle or the shotgun. Perhaps you'd need to find/craft a scabbard to carry either one?

Finally, someone who actually read the document. That's a great idea, and it would absolutely fit with gameplay. They're both pretty heavy, so you'd have to choose between them. A scabbard wouldn't be fitting, though- what about a sling?

On 11/13/2022 at 8:09 PM, Kranium said:

The only other question would be what kind of ammo. Slug, buckshot, or birdshot. That has major implications on it's use case.

Buckshot, of course. Slug rounds would just make it a worse Rifle, and birdshot would barely penetrate.

On 11/13/2022 at 1:24 AM, Bimbobjoejr. said:

Every weapon has its place: rifle, powerful hunting tool but with scarce ammo; revolver, good for defense and warding off predators; bow, good for long term hunting and survival; flare gun, defense only, ward off everything.

Rifle: Powerful hunting tool with scarce ammo.
Revolver: Small predator deterrent that is terrible against large predators.
Bow: Long term hunting and survival, minimum scare value.
Distress Pistol: If-all-else-fails deterrent, no actual damage post-rework for the shotgun.
Shotgun: Large predator deterrent that is terrible against small predators.

On 11/13/2022 at 6:40 PM, ajb1978 said:

And also not all shotguns are created equal--are you using birdshot or buckshot? What gauge?

Buckshot. 12 gauge. The most common type.

On 11/13/2022 at 6:40 PM, ajb1978 said:

You mean those crows circling overhead that would be absolutely disintegrated by a shotgun?

Oh, wow, you actually acknowledged one of the shotgun's downsides! Anything small would be completely disintegrated by a shotgun blast. Medium sized enemies like wolves would most likely have their pelt ruined. It's designed for large game.

On 9/15/2022 at 2:10 PM, SpanishMoss said:

If the game is too hard, try a easier difficulty, or custom. 

If you don't like the shotgun, just don't use it. It's what I do with the Rifle.

[Leeanda]

2 hours ago, JackTrysGames said:

Wouldn't you be a little bit annoyed if people didn't completely read what you suggested and took it out of context?

Simple. Remove the distress pistol's bleedout. The shotgun is a single shot break action firearm that's heavy, kicks like a mule, is relatively inaccurate beyond a certain distance, and has heavy ammo. It also shreds the internals of the wildlife it hits, which has a chance to render the pelt and some meat completely unusable.

You can't always evade. You can't use fire to deter a charging bear.

So now you have three large predators to worry about. Bears, moose, and mountain lions.

And if any of the three charge at you, and you don't have a shelter nearby or an ultra-rare distress pistol in your holster, you're done for. Run over. Return to menu, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

The shotgun fits the atmosphere because it's implied to be a hunting weapon for shooting birds in warmer weather. In some cases, it's implied to be a home defense weapon.

And it fits the gameplay because newer players who get jumped by bears and moose often don't really care about drops, so the shotgun is a viable deterrent. It is distinct in its role, nothing else in the game even comes close to its amount of damage, but nothing else reduces drops either.

While veterans may scoff at the thought of using it, it can be useful for players who find avoiding bears a challenge.

At least someone's aware of the irony of this situation.

It's not supposed to be used against wolves. It's supposed to be used against bears.

That's like saying the Rifle was a "get out of jail free" card pre-Steadfast Ranger because you can shoot wolves with it.

Finally, someone who actually read the document. That's a great idea, and it would absolutely fit with gameplay. They're both pretty heavy, so you'd have to choose between them. A scabbard wouldn't be fitting, though- what about a sling?

Buckshot, of course. Slug rounds would just make it a worse Rifle, and birdshot would barely penetrate.

Rifle: Powerful hunting tool with scarce ammo.
Revolver: Small predator deterrent that is terrible against large predators.
Bow: Long term hunting and survival, minimum scare value.
Distress Pistol: If-all-else-fails deterrent, no actual damage post-rework for the shotgun.
Shotgun: Large predator deterrent that is terrible against small predators.

Buckshot. 12 gauge. The most common type.

Oh, wow, you actually acknowledged one of the shotgun's downsides! Anything small would be completely disintegrated by a shotgun blast. Medium sized enemies like wolves would most likely have their pelt ruined. It's designed for large game.

If you don't like the shotgun, just don't use it. It's what I do with the Rifle.

Honestly ...no.  

I did read it properly but my short term memory is pretty bad and I quite frankly suck at putting thoughts into print and kind of get sidetracked sometimes. 

The only things I get angry about are people's attitudes and unnecessary rudeness. 

 

[UpUpAway95]

As I said in other posts, I no longer really object to anything being added to this game.  For me, the "survival" tension has been lost long ago due to there already being too much "stuff" and too many "luxury" options.  I can already survive with much less than is readily available in the game even on the harder difficulties.  So, have at her - add a gatling gun while you're at it. 😀  I probably won't need it and I won't bother with the weight of it all.  If the rifle or bow (depending on the difficulty I'm playing) is ineffective against the cougar, I'll just turn off the cougar... no biggie... since the standard line is "if you don't like it, don't use it"... I can live with that. 😀

Edited November 30, 2022 by UpUpAway95