suggestion A few AI improvements

[Ghurcb]

1) Animals in TLD have a ridiculously short memory.

If you were to come too close to a deer it would run away from you. And it would be running away for 11 seconds. Then it would stop and return to its spawnpoint. The same applies to rabbits, except they have an attention span of 7 seconds. That makes hunting them extremely easy. You just chase one away from the spawnpoint and wait for it to run back directly at you.

It is especially annoying when the wolf you just shot runs away in the direction you were initially going. In a few seconds it's going to forget you were ever a threat and attack you again.

I think, the time for which the animals run away from you should be tripled. Maybe even quadrupled.

 

2) Hostile animals run away if they can't get to you.

Imagine a situation... You're walking along the rails of Mystery Lake region. A wolf starts following you. You are trying to keep the distance, but the wind is slowly becoming stronger and stronger, slowing you down. You notice this yellow tram in the distance. The wolf is getting closer... Too close. It starts running! And moments before it attacks you get inside the tram!

The place is safe but now you're trapped ins--

Oh, it's fine, actually! The wolf just ran away. Makes sence, right? It can't get you, so why bother?

No it, doesn't make sence (obviously). Why can't it just stay next to the door growling, waiting for you to come out? Why can it circle around, making you wonder if it's safe to leave?

And this case with the tram is merely an example. You can "repel" wolves and bears by hiding in hunting blinds, in train cars, even on uprooted trees!

 

3) Speaking about hunting blinds... They have no doors, but are absolutely safe from all the wildlife. 

And so are fishing huts, porches and many other places where only you can get.

Do you really think that THIS would stop a bear?

Fixing this issue is not as easy as the previous two. The simplest solution that I see would be to add some new animations. This way, if a bear/wolf has you cornered in a fishing hut/ hunting blind, it would drag you out first, and only then the usual struggle/mauling animation would start. Of course, it wouldn't counter all the "safe" places, but together with the previous suggestion it could work pretty well.

 

That's it! Leave your own ideas on how to improve AI behavior in the replies section. If you have any questions or (constructive) criticisms let me know!

[UpUpAway95]

1)  Agree with the concept, except the duration animals are frightened should be scaled with difficulty (i.e. they scare for a longer period of time, if not permanently, in Voyageur; but only scare for a brief period of time, if at all, in Interloper).  An option should also be added to custom to allow the player to control this parameter separately for all different animals (replacing the current "wolf fear" setting, which is what appears to control this in wolves right now).

2) I have been mauled by bears while trying to take cover in hunting blinds.  I don't consider them safe.  I don't think the game would be improved by having long stand-offs with large animals not running away if they have the player cornered.  The only choice then for the player to make would be to just leave their safe area and be immediately mauled.  Boring, since it gives the player no option to out smart the predator.  Cover areas designed into the game world (like hunting blinds) should be safe... at least on the easier difficulties.  If implemented, turning off "safe" places and being cornered by an animal that won't eventually give up and run away should be an optional custom slider.

Bottom line, give me a custom  option to control how I play my game and I'm happy.

Edited March 5, 2022 by UpUpAway95

[Ghurcb]

39 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I don't think the game would be improved by having long stand-offs with large animals not running away if they have the player cornered.  The only choice then for the player to make would be to just leave their safe area and be immediately mauled.  Boring, since it gives the player no option to out smart the predator.

Well, I don't think they should wait for you to come out forever. Rocks, flares, even just aiming with a gun (loaded or not) should scare the wolves away. And if you don't have any of those, they would still lose interest eventually. 

I just think it's weird that predators run away in fear once they realise you're out of reach.

47 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Cover areas designed into the game world (like hunting blinds) should be safe... at least on the easier difficulties.

Yeah, of course! But only on the easier difficulties.

I mean, have you seen those hunting blinds? They don't have any doors! irl anything would be able to enter them.

[UpUpAway95]

16 minutes ago, Ghurcb said:

Well, I don't think they should wait for you to come out forever. Rocks, flares, even just aiming with a gun (loaded or not) should scare the wolves away. And if you don't have any of those, they would still lose interest eventually. 

I just think it's weird that predators run away in fear once they realise you're out of reach.

Yeah, of course! But only on the easier difficulties.

I mean, have you seen those hunting blinds? They don't have any doors! irl anything would be able to enter them.

It may be weird that they just run away (for a very short time) once they realize you're out of reach, but I don't see how the game overall would be improved by having the player have to wait a long time for animals to lose interest.  Also, as I said, I have been mauled by bears while trying to hide in hunting blinds.  I don't consider them to be safe.  The animation for the bear pulling the player out of the blind may not be there, but in my experience, they can still reach you (unless what I experienced was a total glitch).

Right now, wolf fear does, to some extent, control how long wolves will scare from stones, torches, etc.  This setting could easily be tweaked to apply to other animals (e.g. deer). 

An issue I see is how the game would have to adapt to those animals frequently leaving their patrol zones.  It would also affect how far away from the place where the deer was shot, the player would have to look for the carcass.  Currently, if the player shoots, say, a bear and does not pursued it, it will return to its patrol and the player can later fairly reliably locate the carcass (after it bleeds out) somewhere within that patrol area.  It could be a huge annoyance to players to have to track that bear across entire large regions like Pleasant Valley because of the "scare" duration being greatly increased.  It would also increase the system processing load because things like blood trails would have to stay in place longer and exist over longer distances.

Edited March 5, 2022 by UpUpAway95

[Ghurcb]

Here's another one!

I once travelled from Carter Hydro Dam to Trapper's Homestead with a wolf trailing behind me. This is kinda weird, right? Why would it slowly follow me throughout the whole region? Of course, I know "why"! The wolf wanted to kill me, but... It wasn't really in a hurry

I think, there should be a timer of sorts. If a wolf or a bear has been following you for, say, 3 minutes, it starts running. Like, "that's it, I'm out of patience! I'm NOT gonna follow you for another 10 kilometers! Prepare to die!".

Edited March 5, 2022 by Ghurcb

[UpUpAway95]

27 minutes ago, Ghurcb said:

Here's another one!

I once travelled from Carter Hydro Dam to Trapper's Homestead with a wolf trailing behind me. This is kinda weird, right? Why would it slowly follow me throughout the whole region? Of course, I know "why"! The wolf wanted to kill me, but... It wasn't really in a hurry

I think, there should be a timer of sorts. If a wolf or a bear has been following you for, say, 3 minutes, it starts running. Like, "that's it, I'm out of patience! I'm NOT gonna follow you for another 10 kilometers! Prepare to die!".

A stalking predator is, however, very patient IRL.  On a cross-country ski excursion, I and my group of friends were stalked by a cougar for about 6 miles.  it even waited just out side view while we stopped for lunch and continued following us for an additional few miles until we made it back to the safety of our vehicles... clearly waiting for the weakest member of the "herd" to fall behind so it could attack.

In game, i do think wolves tend to only maintain a long following distance if the player is carrying a flare or a torch.  Otherwise, I do think they will tend to charge and attack the moment the player slows down or stops even briefly.  It use to be the would break off pursuit if the player managed to move out of their direct line of sight.  However I don't think that is the case anymore.

[SpanishMoss]

You've never dealed with timberwolves then lol. The are easier to thwart than a normal wolf.  Just by holding a lot flare or torch, you become immune to their attacks. You are completely safe with your torch/flare (unless it's windy, then a torch won't help you). This really need to be changed, since it's too cheesy 

[Ghurcb]

39 minutes ago, SpanishMoss said:

You've never dealed with timberwolves then lol. The are easier to thwart than a normal wolf.  Just by holding a lot flare or torch, you become immune to their attacks. You are completely safe with your torch/flare (unless it's windy, then a torch won't help you). This really need to be changed, since it's too cheesy 

Yeah, I once saw a video of a player beating a pack of timberwolves just by looking at them. He was holding a torch, but that was about it.

Timberwolves should definitely become less cowardly.

[Leeanda]

Isn't this behavior already at black rock?  I've heard wolves scratching at the door for hours after going inside a trailer! 

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, SpanishMoss said:

You've never dealed with timberwolves then lol. The are easier to thwart than a normal wolf.  Just by holding a lot flare or torch, you become immune to their attacks. You are completely safe with your torch/flare (unless it's windy, then a torch won't help you). This really need to be changed, since it's too cheesy 

However, to break the pack morale, you must hit a wolf with a thrown torch or lit flare or bullet or arrow.  From what I've seen, merely holding a torch or throwing a torch at a T-wolf that doesn't hit it does not actually lower the morale bar (in Interloper or Stalker).  I have seen players that have taken nips while holding a lit torch... so I wouldn't say that merely holding one makes you immune from their attacks either.  They are more afraid of the marine flares, but that's specifically why the marine flares were introduced into the game.

Of course, a valid strategy is to hold the torch or lit flare and back away until you can enter a building or other place of safety.  This does not break pack morale, but the attack can cease if the player stays indoors for a long enough period of time.  In Blackrock, if you enter a building without breaking pack morale first, the wolves will scratch at the door and resume the attack if the player leaves the safety of the building.

ETA:  I also forgot to mention that the T-wolves in Blackrock appear to be restricted to various segments of the map.  If the player moves outside of that particular pack's area, the attack will cease and the morale bar will simply disappear without the pack's morale being broken.  This has nothing to do with the player holding a lit torch or flare, but rather the player moving out of the designated range for that particular pack engaged in the attack.

Edited March 5, 2022 by UpUpAway95

[Catlover]

3 hours ago, Leeanda said:

Isn't this behavior already at black rock?  I've heard wolves scratching at the door for hours after going inside a trailer! 

Never knew they did that! Is it just in specific places or something they did with the whole region? 

[Leeanda]

12 minutes ago, Catlover said:

Never knew they did that! Is it just in specific places or something they did with the whole region? 

Not sure if I'm honest. Too busy dying a lot in story mode to find out Lol 😁 I've seen it in several areas on ytube so presuming it's all BlackRock. 

 

[Catlover]

2 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Not sure if I'm honest. Too busy dying a lot in story mode to find out Lol 😁 I've seen it in several areas on ytube so presuming it's all BlackRock. 

 

I hope they add that to the rest of the maps, it would definitely freak me out hearing them scratching at the door and I'm too cowardly to take my survivor anywhere with t-wolves 

Would make me feel bad for that survivor in that note outside the ML fishing cabin, who had all those wolves scratching at their door

[SpanishMoss]

2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

However, to break the pack morale, you must hit a wolf with a thrown torch or lit flare or bullet or arrow.  From what I've seen, merely holding a torch or throwing a torch at a T-wolf that doesn't hit it does not actually lower the morale bar (in Interloper or Stalker).  I have seen players that have taken nips while holding a lit torch... so I wouldn't say that merely holding one makes you immune from their attacks either.  They are more afraid of the marine flares, but that's specifically why the marine flares were introduced into the game.

Of course, a valid strategy is to hold the torch or lit flare and back away until you can enter a building or other place of safety.  This does not break pack morale, but the attack can cease if the player stays indoors for a long enough period of time.  In Blackrock, if you enter a building without breaking pack morale first, the wolves will scratch at the door and resume the attack if the player leaves the safety of the building.

ETA:  I also forgot to mention that the T-wolves in Blackrock appear to be restricted to various segments of the map.  If the player moves outside of that particular pack's area, the attack will cease and the morale bar will simply disappear without the pack's morale being broken.  This has nothing to do with the player holding a lit torch or flare, but rather the player moving out of the designated range for that particular pack engaged in the attack.

Actually, if you walk far enough from a packs spawn point, the packs morale will break instantly. Basicly, if you are found by a pack, light a flare/torch, and keep on walking, once you are far enough away, the morale will break, but some will still be following you, to get rid of them, scare them off with any method. However, just by walking at the with the flare, is enough to scare them off.

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, SpanishMoss said:

Actually, if you walk far enough from a packs spawn point, the packs morale will break instantly. Basicly, if you are found by a pack, light a flare/torch, and keep on walking, once you are far enough away, the morale will break, but some will still be following you, to get rid of them, scare them off with any method. However, just by walking at the with the flare, is enough to scare them off.

Honestly, I don't see the difference between what you're saying here and what I said - i.e. morale bar just disappearing and pack morale breaking instantly.  Same thing as far as I can see... the trigger being pulling them out of their designated pursuit range, not the holding of a torch.  To lower the moral bar while still within their range, you still have to actually hit them with the torch.  Just holding it may (repeat MAY) keep them from getting close enough to you to nip you, but I have recently seen some streamers take nips from T-wolves while holding a torch, so it doesn't make one completely immune from that.

[SpanishMoss]

3 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Honestly, I don't see the difference between what you're saying here and what I said - i.e. morale bar just disappearing and pack morale breaking instantly.  Same thing as far as I can see... the trigger being pulling them out of their designated pursuit range, not the holding of a torch.  To lower the moral bar while still within their range, you still have to actually hit them with the torch.  Just holding it may (repeat MAY) keep them from getting close enough to you to nip you, but I have recently seen some streamers take nips from T-wolves while holding a torch, so it doesn't make one completely immune from that.

Sorry, I only read the first half of your post before posting my response 

[Ghurcb]

Okay, this one is not really AI-related, but it still kinda fits the theme.

When an animal walks uphill, its model is simply tilted upwards. It's tilted downwards, when it walks downhill. They all rotate in place and move rather slowly even if they look like running (especially rabbits).

I think Hinterland should update wildlife animations, so it looks more... Well... Alive.

All those animals really move like robots right now.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Ghurcb

[Neko-san]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:39 AM, Ghurcb said:

Okay, this one is not really AI-related, but it still kinda fits the theme.

When an animal walks uphill, its model is simply tilted upwards. It's tilted downwards, when it walks downhill. They all rotate in place and move rather slowly even if they look like running (especially rabbits).

I think Hinterland should update wildlife animations, so it looks more... Well... Alive.

All those animals really move like robots right now.

I expect this to require an animation system deeper than what's currently used by Unity; which is technically possible and would be cool but... might be outside the scope of the time, effort, and monetary resources Hinterland would need to implement such a thing (AAA-grade animation system)...

[Kranium]

I do find regular wolf behaviour kind of odd, in that if I simply keep walking it will keep following but not attack, so long as I maintain distance. Many times I've auto-walked with a wolf following me, growling, basically across an entire map (eg. FM along the tracks) and never had to worry. Oooh, so scary. lol

[Razum]

I wrote my wish for AI in another thread, just gonna quote it here:

Quote

I would definetely make the AI of wolves more complex, so that they hunt you over long distances. I wish, there were fewer of them with each being a bigger problem than is now. In consequence, a wolf should be a threat for a longer period of time, with you being able to prepare for it, distracting it and stuff. I don't want the wolves themselves to be stronger (more damage or something), but just their strategies to be more complex.
One could say, something like this would push TLD in some wrong direction, I understand that, but I think, this would be another survival aspect of the game. It shouldn't be the main thing. TLD shouldn't go for action. I would see that as another point to count into planning. And if you're wrong, you'll propably die.

Of course, this means, that a wolf remembers you for a longer time. I find the whole spawnpoint orientation weird. I don't really like, that you just learn so many parts of the maps (where wolves, bears, moose, tools) spawn. But for me, when it comes to animals, this is the most wrong there. You should be forced to adapt with each run.

Deer should roam around the world, searching for new food and away from wolf area, while wolves track deer.

This is all very much, but even some improvements would be much appreciated from my side.

To animation: Setting up inverse kinematics and doing better animation isn't that difficult. See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNidsMesxSE
So it shouldn't be such an unrealistic thing to wish for.

[Lacho7]

I totally agree with general wildlife AI.

There is also lot of confusion between animal themselves. Wolfs are afraid from bears, they run away from them for few seconds, an then after that, business as usual.
Maybe it's me but I've never seen a bear chasing a wolf. (maybe wrong)

This kind of robotic behaviors intervene with the reality or continuity of the game.

Important part of the game.