New affliction: FAINT


Ghurcb

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10 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Fine.  Remember how much people loved the RNG sprain mechanic when it first came in... just please give me a custom option to turn it off.

What do you think about deleting the whole argument we had here? It was rather unproductive. It also looks weird that the whole first page of replies here is our stupid back-and-forth.

Anyway, I already deleted mine, so the job's half-done. Hope, you do the same (no pressure, though).

We really should have agreed to disagree. Anyway, none of that is probably getting added to TLD any time soon, so no need to be overly critical.

Have a nice day!

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Just to clarify some parts, that I could've explained better initially.

1) It takes 20 minutes of gameplay (real-life time) for "faint risk" to develop into "faint", and it takes 0.5-2.5 minutes for faint to force you asleep.

2) Development of "faint risk" can be stopped not only by sleep, but also coffee, energy drinks, and stims.

3) I don't wish for carry weight decrease to be removed. The only problem I have with it is that it is more annoying than it is challenging. If the start was moved to 25% fatigue, then it would deplete at a faster rate (x2) AND new players wouldn't be so confused as to why their backpack becomes heavier for no reason.

4) All the numbers, timeframes, percentages et.c. are arbitrary. I made them up on the spot. And IF Hinterland ever introduce fainting to the game, I can bet all the numbers will be different from mine.

5) Yes, time before fainting CAN be non-random. I just think it's more engaging if you don't know how much time is left. I might be wrong, though.

Edited by Ghurcb
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2 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

What do you think about deleting the whole argument we had here? It was rather unproductive. It also looks weird that the whole first page of replies here is our stupid back-and-forth.

Anyway, I already deleted mine, so the job's half-done. Hope, you do the same (no pressure, though).

We really should have agreed to disagree. Anyway, none of that is probably getting added to TLD any time soon, so no need to be overly critical.

Have a nice day!

I am against deleting anything.  I've not insulted anyone or done anything wrong.  Just stated and explained my opinion on a public forum.  I still don't like the RNG mechanic you're proposing and I've suggested several ways around it.  Since, as you say, none of it will probably ever be added, my suggestions have always been merely that... suggestions.  You're the one who admittedly became defensive over your proposal.  I even agreed to end the conversation in my previous post, but you still replied... suggesting the discussion (not argument) be censored.  Do what you like.  I've done nothing wrong.

My suggestions included: 1) a custom option to turn off the carry capacity reduction that currently occurs as the character becomes fatigued 2) accelerating the health depletion that currently results from being over fatigued such that it can no longer be countered indefinitely through the consumption of birch bark teas and 3) insertion of a custom option to turn off your suggested random "fainting" effect.

All of which you have declared to be "unproductive."  Thank you so much.

Edited by UpUpAway95
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A lot of people say, this feature should be optional in custom settings. Honestly, I didn't think it even has to be mentioned. Half of all afflictions can be disabled there already (the other half can be seriously tweaked). So, if such a feature was ever added, OF COURSE you could disable it.

As to the other difficulty settings... I really don't like that voyager has less afflictions than stalker. I mean, it makes sence, voyager should be easier. But it also creates this problem, that in order to experience all of game's features you have to play on stalker. Still, knowing hinterland, if they were to add this mechanic, it would only be enabled on stalker and interloper.

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I like the idea of a fainting mechanic, honestly. But I don't see how it would fit into the current game. Mostly though I don't like the fatigue/energy system in this game too much, it's not realistic enough. So this could help, IDK.

 

I mean, there's 4 kinds of fatigue, basically. Mental & physical, short & long term. IMO things like the starvation method shouldn't be nearly as viable as it is now.

 

Hallucinating would be cool, too haha

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41 minutes ago, Kranium said:

I like the idea of a fainting mechanic, honestly. But I don't see how it would fit into the current game. Mostly though I don't like the fatigue/energy system in this game too much, it's not realistic enough. So this could help, IDK.

 

I mean, there's 4 kinds of fatigue, basically. Mental & physical, short & long term. IMO things like the starvation method shouldn't be nearly as viable as it is now.

 

Hallucinating would be cool, too haha

My problem is that ,who loses their life if they don't drink while sleeping! I don't! 

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14 hours ago, Leeanda said:

My problem is that ,who loses their life if they don't drink while sleeping! I don't! 

Certainly, being unable to sleep when dehydrated would make more sense. 

Still, going without sleep for a prolonged period of time should drain health... not cause the player to randomly faint regardless of what they are doing at the time.  Adrenaline alone would force even a very tired person to stay awake if, say, they were being attacked by a wolf or crossing a wobbly bridge.  They may suffer from poor judgment (which cannot really be reflected in game because the player is making the decisions) and struggle with their coordination (reflected in this game when health gets below 10%) more than they normally would, but they would not just pass out.

What if they created a separate meter for exhaustion and sleep... such that "rest" (without sleeping) would allow the recovery of exhaustion and lack of sleep would only come into play if the player failed to sleep at least 6 hours in a 24-hour period.  Carry weight would be significantly affected IF and only when the exhaustion meter was in the red and resting (i.e. passing time for 1 hour) would recover that meter to full.  The effect of the sleep meter being in the red would be scaled depending on how many consecutive days the player was short on sleep... say, 2% per hour if 1 night's sleep was missed increasing to 4% if 2 nights are missed, etc.  Once in the red, the player would be required to sleep 10 hours straight in order to fill the sleep meter and prevent the further loss of health.  (The loss of health should be significant enough that it cannot be indefinitely countered by ingestion of birch bark teas so that the player cannot use "exhaustion strats" to push their character through several consecutive days without sleep or loss of any condition.

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1 hour ago, The Lord of the Long Dark said:

I just want to preemptively thank the developers for never using this idea. 

Could you elaborate on this one?

It might be the tunnel vision, but this idea seems AWESOME to me. You don't sleep for a long time - you pass out. It makes sence, creates intense gameplay situations, and discourages staying at 0 fatigue (in a way that is less annoying than carry capacity reduction).

The two main arguments against this idea I hear here (over and over again) are...

1) It would make the game too hard (easily fixed by some balancing changes)

2) It's too RNG (it doesn't have to be)

 

You know, when I posted this whole thing here, for some reason I expected feedback along the lines of "X wouldn't work because of [reason], it should be Y instead". But what I got was "your idea sucks, hope it will never be added".

It's a bit disappointing, is all I'm saying...

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(I haven't taken the time to read all of the other comments so I simply stating my thoughts)

 

I like the idea, but I don't know at what point in exhaustion it should show up. The idea you propose seems like a short time from being fully rested and then fainting from exhaustion. 

I feel like the only way it would fit well is for after using an emergency stim. Right now, you can use 5 stims one after another to rush through a region in no time (like what I do when I am near the end of an episode or challenge). After using a stim, I would see a faint affliction coming into play IF your exhaustion meter was depleted a certain amount while the stim was active. 

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On 3/2/2022 at 1:44 PM, The Lord of the Long Dark said:

First it’s unnecessary. In the easy levels there is no reason to go without sleep anyway. For example when you are playing stalker and need food or shelter you never have to go far-

A lot of afflictions in TLD are unnecessary. I'm playing on stalker right now, I've already survived for 52 days. Throughout all this time I didn't even once get intestinal parasites, hypothermia, frostbite or infection. All of them I managed to avoid or treat in time. Does that mean, they should never have been added?

Still, right now I'm walking through Pleasant Valley with 0 energy, trying to reach Thomsons Crossing, where I intend to sleep. Having this "faint risk" would incentivize me to find some other (maybe less safe) place to sleep.

On 3/2/2022 at 1:44 PM, The Lord of the Long Dark said:

there is never a reason to have to push on without sleeping. Every house has a day worth of food.

Yeah, but when you have an objective, you don't really want to waste your time staying in the same place. You want to push on. If this mechanic was implemented, "pushing on" would still be an option, but there would also be a risk involved.

 

EDIT: I just entered Timberwolf Mountain region. Climbing the rope from Pleasant Valley took half of my fatigue meter away. And now I'm at 0 energy again. All I'm saying is... There is an application for this idea. There definitely is.

Edited by Ghurcb
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3 hours ago, Bearimpaler101 said:

I think that when you it says afliction : faint you stumble around for the time before you faint similarly to compromised condition but without the sounds

This is EXACTLY how I imagined this to work. And at the end the survivor closes their eyes, barely opens them again and falls sideways. Fade to black...

Possibly... Fade into the long dark...

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5 hours ago, Bearimpaler101 said:

I think that when you it says afliction : faint you stumble around for the time before you faint similarly to compromised condition but without the sounds

I imagined something, you may find interesting on that point. In reality, you often don't realize, you're sleeping, until you wake up suddenly. This effect could be implemented as well. Like, you stumble around and stuff and don't know, if you're still awake until you wake up where you fell asleep 3 minutes ago. That would make the whole thing much more unnerving.

Sidenote: With some tweaks the game would be a great horror game. Not like everything is dark and one jump scare after the other, but with that survival aspect. I once stood in Thompsons Crossing and thought: "If that swing would swing a bit in the wind, it would be really frightening". Especially in interloper, it is that way, as you can die in no time.

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I'm going to insert a way to implement it without it seeming to be RNG as some put it.

How about the risk shows up when the fatigue bar becomes only a quarter of the way full, notifying the player, "hey, you need to get to bed." When it hits 0, is when the countdown begins. A red bar similar to the stamina bar becoming red with heavier clothing, would start to fill the fatigue bar. When it reaches full is when you would pass out. When you wake up, let's say you would have a quarter of your fatigue bar filled regularly and the game progresses an hour or two. This way, you may have a set warning of how much time you have left. Let's say the red bar would take 5 IRL minutes to fill.

Of course I know some won't agree, but I will say I like the idea. Even if it doesn't get added, I want to share my piece about the topic.

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On 2/21/2022 at 4:09 PM, Ghurcb said:

"I think, I'm gonna faint" - says Survivor. Little do they know, it's never going to happen.

I, personally, don't like the way fatigue works right now.

First off, "recommended encumbrance" decrease is more of an annoyance, than it is an actual problem.

Secondly, the fact that this decrease starts at 50% fatigue makes it way too different to the other three needs (their depletion doesn't really harm you until they reach 0%). That also discourages players from letting their fatigue go below 50%, which means, Survivor can only sleep for 6 hours in a row. This can't be healthy, right?

And last, but not least, when fatigue reaches zero, Survivor can keep going for 96 hours, fueled by nothing but their willpower and energy bars. And once these 96 hours are over Survivor drops dead, fading into the long dark.

That's not how sleep deprivation works. You can't just refuse to sleep. You won't stay awake until your last breath.

 

The solution? You've seen the title.

 

New affliction: FAINT

It would work similarly to hypothermia. Once your energy reaches zero, you get a "faint risk" affliction.

Faint_risk_icon.png.6a7398c1b560fbddbb26491c5e9d641a.png

It would go from 0% to 100% in 4 hours (that is, if your energy meter is empty). When it hits 100%, you get a "faint" affliction.  

Faint_icon1.png.3e428c8b192d50e435dfeb22e70e1092.png

Once you get it, the game is on! You WILL fall asleep at any moment in the next 5-30 minutes. There's no way of knowing how much time you have at your disposal, so you have to act fast. Do you build a fire while you can, or do you crawl towards the closest shelter, or maybe you finally use this bedroll to fall asleep on your own terms? The choice is yours.

Sleeping would decrease faint chance by 5%/hr. This way, even after you get 12 hours of sleep, you might still have up to 40% of faint risk (depending on how high it was when you went to bed). This can be seen as a long-term consequence of sleep deprivation.

Coffee and energy drinks would not affect your faint risk directly, but they will stop its growth by filling your fatigue bar.

As to the emergency stims... Well, here's what their description says: "Emergency steroid injection. Will provide a short-burst of energy. Then you´ll collapse from exhaustion. Use as last resort!". Yep, they just inflict "faint" once your timer's up. Pick your poison.

 

Okay, fine. You passed out. What's next? You sleep for an hour restoring 1/12 of your energy, wasting the usual amount of calories and water ...slowly freezing to death if the temperature is below zero. When you wake up your faint risk is set to 75%, giving you another hour to find a proper place to sleep.

I know, what some of you might think "-25% to faint risk? That's more than the -5%/hr you mention before. This system can be exploited!". Well, think again, because whenever you pass out, your condition takes a hit (let's say, -20%). Is it worth the risk? Decide for yourselves.

 

Some of you might say, that such a change would make The Long Dark way too difficult. And... I would agree. This change turns fatigue into too big of a threat.

A trade must be made. There has to be some way to balance it. To make the fatigue less punishing. But what are we willing to sacrifice?

We all know it has to be carry capacity reduction. It has to be nerfed. Let's say, it would start at 25% instead of 50%. It would make perfect sence!

25% IS a low number of percents, so it WOULD make sence to receive some sort of a debuff when going below it. And realistically, having your carry capacity lowered, means you're tired. And I wouldn't say, that person who is TIRED to this point, would be JUST LIKE NEW after only 6 hours of sleep. But if someone is in need of 9 hours of sleep, yeah, this person is starting to exhaust their resources.

 

So... What else is there to say?

If you have any additions, questions, or criticisms, make sure to reply. Maybe this way this wish of mine will stay on the first page long enough for someone at Hinterland to notice it.

Take care!

Hi! I think that's a good idea.

 

I was wondering anyways: is there any chance to sleep without having a sleeping back? 

Because when I think of a real survival situation, and I would be without a sleeping back, I would search for a wind and waterproof shelter, lay myself down at the warmest edge, do a fire if possible, take off my jacket and put it like a blanket over my body, as I saw it in the  german roman/movie "soweit die Füße tragen" where a single german soldier could escape the prison in Siberia and survived the cold winter, going through the Siberian wild this way. 

So, one time in TLD I forgot my sleeping back. It was a sunny, warm day and I could perfectly take a little rest this way in the sun, but I was almost dying because of my missing sleeping back.

I had a big reindeer fur in my backpack, but of course I could neither sleep on it or use it as a blanket. Not even in this emergency situation. That was very frustrating.

Luckily I could go back just in time. But I wished so much for another solution here. Your idea seems to be a compromise for situations like that. But it probably takes a risk to be killed by wild animals too I guess. 

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56 minutes ago, KaryDF said:

I was wondering anyways: is there any chance to sleep without having a sleeping back? 

Yes, I too think that sleeping bags should be optional. Here's how I see it:

On 2/21/2022 at 9:38 PM, Ghurcb said:

Another way to rebalance the game to account for FAINT mechanic would be to allow sleeping on the floor. It could have a "cold floor penalty" instead of "warm bed bonus", not to make bedrolls obsolete.

Sure, it's more comfortable to sleep in a bed, but in a survival scenario... You don't always have the privilege to make this choice.

 

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  • 1 month later...

I like this a lot. But there should be effects of fainting before you actually faint so you know it's coming. Instead of instant passing out.

Blurred vision, tunnel vision, darkening vision, slowed and unbalanced movement, voicelines, falling over/camera shake, etc...

Additionally you should be able to just sleep anywhere, without a bedroll. But if you do this you will wake up with a 'Poor Rest' affliction that has negative consequences that last throughout the day or two.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/17/2022 at 8:41 PM, Fuarian said:

I like this a lot. But there should be effects of fainting before you actually faint so you know it's coming. Instead of instant passing out.

Blurred vision, tunnel vision, darkening vision, slowed and unbalanced movement, voicelines, falling over/camera shake, etc...

Additionally you should be able to just sleep anywhere, without a bedroll. But if you do this you will wake up with a 'Poor Rest' affliction that has negative consequences that last throughout the day or two.

That's exactly how fainting should work, the way I see it. The effects shouldn't appear immediately, though. It'd be better for them to progress with the Faint Risk. And only when it hits 100% all of those things will work at their maximum capacity. 

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