befriending wolves?

unclejace

By unclejace
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unclejace Wolfbait

unclejace

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Having a quite a bit of respect for the wolf and the great Canadian Farley Mowat, I first tried playing as a pilgrim. I didn't want to kill wolves. The game is great, but I think the difficulty should stay at the same level as it is in voyageur, or even harder minus the wolf attacks?

I even tried to lure the wolves into a befriended status with some meat while playing in pilgrim. Now that would be a very cool feature, and more realistic than the wolf attacks too. After all, look at the current status of homo/canis relationships.

A chihuahua is more likely to bite than a great dane.

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DenverDad Pathfinder

DenverDad

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wolves are not dogs....

And yet... where do you think dogs come from? We domesticated the wolf slowly over time. It all starts with one somewhat less fearful and inquisitive wolf following a human around hoping for food scraps. This game could emulate that well. Even if you never "tame" it the idea that a wolf could potentially show an interest in you other than simply ripping out your throat is compelling.

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Willbonney Pathfinder

Willbonney

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wolves are not dogs....

And yet... where do you think dogs come from? We domesticated the wolf slowly over time. It all starts with one somewhat less fearful and inquisitive wolf following a human around hoping for food scraps. This game could emulate that well. Even if you never "tame" it the idea that a wolf could potentially show an interest in you other than simply ripping out your throat is compelling.

Unknown. Many theories say something similar, however one main consensus is wolves of that time were a lot more genetically diverse than the wolves we have today. Some dogs have very few common genetic markers to wolves, and are more closely related to foxes. There is no scientifically proven ancestor of the domesticated dog, therefore the debate about where they come from still exists today. So to just say dogs come from wolves, no offense intended, but your statement is just not true. They may come from wolves 30-50,000 years ago, but those wolves no longer exist today. And in fact, it could just as likely be that we domesticated completely different types of canines that existed at the time, that had no direct relation to the wolves. Similar, but different, similar to how mankind is related to apes with only about a 2% genetic difference, it's a very similar difference dog to wolf. One theory about modern wolves is that those that currently exist today are of breeds in which domestication failed. That the only reason we have many of these wild canines is because their type refused to be tamed.

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Scyzara Pathfinder

Scyzara

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Some dogs have very few common genetic markers to wolves, and are more closely related to foxes.

I'm sorry, but I've never heard of anything like this and VERY much doubt it. Just because e.g. a chihuahua remotely looks like a fennec (and both share a certain genetic background because they're both canines with a similar outer appearance) just can't be interpreded as an evidence that some dog breeds derived from foxes. ;)

Convergent evolution (and various other selection processes) ofc happen on the genome level, plain similarity doesn't necessarily indicate a common origin - which is one of the main reasons why molecular taxonomy is such a complex field of research and requires complex mathematical models as well as giant computer capacities.

Here's the wikipedia article about the origin of dogs (with quite a lot of references):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog

So unless you can show me a fertile dog-fox-hybrid, I prefer to believe in the "dogs drived from wolves"-theory. ;)

(Got a Master's degree in molecular biology and currently working on the PhD if that matters to you.^^)

They may come from wolves 30-50,000 years ago, but those wolves no longer exist today.

This, on the other hand, is (imo unquestionably) true. Moreover, I wouldn't be surprised if taming these ancient wolves happened several times independently in different parts of the world. Quite well possible that for example ancient Asian dog breeds have different wolf ancestor populations than ancient European breeds. :)

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Willbonney Pathfinder

Willbonney

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Read your own wiki article, specifically here:

There are three schools of thought on the origin of the dog.

Descendant of other canids that exist today

Within the Canidae, three distinct phylogenetic groupings are apparent:

The fox-like canids, which include species closely related to the red fox (Vulpes vulpes), and the arctic fox (Vulpes lagopus), and the fennec fox (Vulpes zerda or Fennecus zerda, disputed).

The wolf-like canids, including dog, wolf, coyote, Ethiopian wolf or Simien jackal, and three other species of jackals (genus Canis), and the African hunting dog (genus Lycaon) and the dhole (genus Cuon).

The South American canids, including fox-sized canids, such as the pampus fox, crab-eating fox, and small-eared dog (genus Pseudalopex, Lycalopex, Atelocynus) and the maned wolf (genus Chrysocyon) and bushdog (genus Speothos).

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DenverDad Pathfinder

DenverDad

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Two quick notes. First and foremost, when it comes to matters of science we should probably avoid using Wikipedia as a source of reliable information.

That being said I am inclined to agree with Scyzara on this based on the fact that I'm not sure you could create a fertile fox/dog hybrid. However, Willbonney does have a valid point that all canids alive today are different than those ancient humans domesticated (depending of course when and where domestication took place) but in all likelihood it probably happened many times over all over the world throughout history.

Despite this fact my original point still stands. Domestication of the modern wolf isn't impossible. There are individuals who specialize in wolf-dog hybrids and it really seems to depend on finding the right temperament in the individual more than anything.

At the end of the day The Long Dark is a fantasy setting so befriending a wolf may or may not be possible depending on how the geomagnetic event has affected the wolf population. Personally I like the idea but only if it was implemented with limited benefit and crafted to be an extremely rare occurrence. It could add an interesting new dimension of game play should a wolf slowly decide to simply follow you around over time (at a distance) rather than attack you.

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Scyzara Pathfinder

Scyzara

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Read your own wiki article, specifically here:

There are three schools of thought on the origin of the dog.

Descendant of other canids that exist today

Within the Canidae, three distinct phylogenetic groupings are apparent:

The fox-like canids, which include species closely related to the red fox (Vulpes vulpes), and the arctic fox (Vulpes lagopus), and the fennec fox (Vulpes zerda or Fennecus zerda, disputed).

The wolf-like canids, including dog, wolf, coyote, Ethiopian wolf or Simien jackal, and three other species of jackals (genus Canis), and the African hunting dog (genus Lycaon) and the dhole (genus Cuon).

The South American canids, including fox-sized canids, such as the pampus fox, crab-eating fox, and small-eared dog (genus Pseudalopex, Lycalopex, Atelocynus) and the maned wolf (genus Chrysocyon) and bushdog (genus Speothos).

I really don't want to be impolite to (or stroppy with) you, please don't get me wrong - but it seems to me you misunderstood the article a bit. ;)

Canidae doesn't mean domestic dogs in particular, it's the name of the whole big family of canine species.

Vulpes (foxes), Canis (wolves/dogs/coyotes) and South American canids are three geni (genus is the term for a sub-group of a family) which together form the great family called "Canidae".

(I'm aware that this sentence is an oversimplification as certain geni like Otocyon or Nyctereutes belong to the Vulpes group as well, same is true for the genus Lycaon belonging to the Canis group... but that's really details).

This cladogram (from a Nature paper published by Lindblad-Toh et al., 2005) shows how the canine geni are related: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... -phylogeny

0250-lindblat-toh-dog-tree-03.jpg

Foxes are red, the south American canines green and the Canis (wolf) group is blue. As you can see, dogs are unarguably closest related to grey wolves, not to foxes.

I hope this clarifies my point a bit - you can find further information about it in the research paper (most importantly, there is as little as 0.04% (exon) and 0.21% (intron) sequence divergence between dogs and grey wolves - that's really not much, about ten times less divergence than between humans and bonobos for example).^^

I don't consider the website you posted to be particularly reliable.. even if some of its data might be true (like Niemeyer's wolf/fox hybrids that died immediately after birth), this is still no hint that dogs derived from foxes. Dogs and wolves easily create viable and fertile offspring because of their huge genetic similarity and equal chromosome numbers. Even if there may be rare cases of viable dog/fox hybrids (never say never in biology^^) - these are certainly not fertile (meiosis with unequal chromosome numbers causes infertile gametes, the only exceptions to this rule I know are a few plant species hybrids).

Again, this is really not meant to be an offense against you, it's just my opinion as a biologist (who has a soft spot for canines). ;)

Two quick notes. First and foremost, when it comes to matters of science we should probably avoid using Wikipedia as a source of reliable information.

You're right about that, I just thought the Wikipedia article might be easier to understand for non-biologists than the original reference. The Nature paper I just posted is definitely a more reliable source (and very interesting to read as well!) :)

Hybrids are domesticated, like Czechoslovakian wolfdog from my country, but you need few generations and a lot more of dog blood then wolf blood. And you must start with cubs. Trying to domesticate or even befriend full grown wolf is almost impossible task.

As far as I know, some wolf-dog F2 hybrids (1/4 grey wolf & 3/4 german shepherd dog) are bred and trained by the Russian army as they bark less than dogs while being equally obedient and willing to please. But as you said, these hybrids are much more dogs than wolves and you have to start training them when they are puppies.

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elloco999 Pathfinder

elloco999

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Whether dogs stem solely from wolves or not is a very interesting discussion for sure, but is it relevant to the question if it's possible to tame a wolf in TLD? Even if it may be possible to tame a wolf in the real world, the wolves in TLD don't act like their real world brothers and sisters. It seems to me it's very hard to tame an animal that will attack you as soon as it notices you.

So for tamable wolves to be introduced in TLD, changes need to be made to their behavior. This would mean the geo-magnetical event that has happened/ is happening would affect some wolves differently than others. This could be done if the devs want it, so it's possible.

Personally I don't think tamable wolves are a good addition to TLD. I just don't feel it would fit in the gameplay.

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Scyzara Pathfinder

Scyzara

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You might then be interested in reading this study Scyzara: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/a ... en.1004016

Allright, I've read the whole study. Neither is the wolf-descent-theory questioned anywhere, nor are foxes as potential ancestors mentioned. The cladogram and demographic model also relate the three researched dog breeds (boxer, basenji and dingo) closest to a part of the (once big) ancient wolf population, while modern wolves (from Croatia, Israel and China) may have derived from another part of the named ancient wolf population.

To cut a long story short: Everything this study tells us are hints to some details of when and where which ancient wolf sub-populations were domesticated exactly - and how little they were related to other ancient as well as modern wolf populations because of various bottle neck effects. Still interesting to know, thank you for posting. :)

Whether dogs stem solely from wolves or not is a very interesting discussion for sure, but is it relevant to the question if it's possible to tame a wolf in TLD?

Well, at least it's important to remember that modern wolves are quite different from those ancient wolves which were domesticated tens of thousands of years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if the few modern wolf populations that weren't killed by mankind (yet) are way more shy and wary than their ancient cousins were 20.000 years ago, for example.^^

This difference of character might be one of the reasons why it is so difficult to tame and/or train modern wolves in real life - an aspect one might at least consider when it comes to the question whether it should be possible to tame a wolf in TLD. ;)

Personally I don't think tamable wolves are a good addition to TLD. I just don't feel it would fit in the gameplay.

I agree with you. For gameplay reasons als well as the reasons named above.^^

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Bishounen Survivor

Bishounen

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Just a short comment here:

This was a fascinating and very interesting thread. I had always wondered about the whole wolf/dog/fox breeding thing, and to hear directly from a biologist about this topic was quite enlightening. Thank you for having such a well written and insightful discussion!

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JoseyWales Pathfinder

JoseyWales

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At the end of the day The Long Dark is a fantasy setting so befriending a wolf may or may not be possible depending on how the geomagnetic event has affected the wolf population. Personally I like the idea but only if it was implemented with limited benefit and crafted to be an extremely rare occurrence. It could add an interesting new dimension of game play should a wolf slowly decide to simply follow you around over time (at a distance) rather than attack you.

I agree.. Might even be cool for them to eat a piece of meat you drop for them, or run off with it or something. I like when little touches like these are added to games, it really boosts the fun and playability.

The elusive white wolf maybe? Been some talk of it in other threads. Wolf pups, younger deer and does would be cool in the game as well. Being what it is, I would love to see a lot of different animals in the game. Cougars, mountain lions and more. Geese would be cool to see. Now, If I could only find a shotgun.. :D

righthttp://i.imgur.com/RDxneLX.png

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Alvinius Prepper

Alvinius

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NIce little article here. Study narrows origin of dogs Cornell Chronicle

Cornell University

FTA:

Their findings revealed the three wolves were more closely related to each other than to any of the dogs. Likewise, the two dog genomes and a third boxer genome resembled each other more closely than the wolves. This suggests that modern dogs and gray wolves represent sister branches on an evolutionary tree descending from an older, common ancestor. The results contrast with previous theories that speculated dogs evolved from one of the sampled populations of gray wolves.

Oh and as far as the game play goes, could be interesting.

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Willbonney Pathfinder

Willbonney

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To try to get back on topic however, I posted the following in another older post, might have some value here:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=4378

I like some of the ideas here, except the one about trapping a wild wolf to then, tame? it I guess. I think it would be better to refer it as "befriending" and should take more than just trapping it. Say every time you feed a wolf, it raises a "Friendliness" stat, and over time you can build that up high enough where it will start following you around. Then at another level, it would truly "Befriend" you, and you would be able to click on it to see it's stats. Like strength, agility, how hungry it is, how aggressive it is, as well as how close a "Friend" it is to you. Then the trick is to balance it's friendliness with its aggression (reduced by treating it well; feeding, petting, teaching it tricks; aggression raised by treating it poorly; lack of food, lack of sleep, working it, scaring it with gun fire, flares, or torches). The more aggressive it is, the more likely it would be to defend you against other wolves, but also the more likely it would be to attack the player.

Different tricks I would think the befriended wolf could learn:

Killing and fetching rabbits without causing too much meat loss.

Tracking wild game like Deer or other passive animals added later.

Alerting the Player to a nearby wolf or bear(specific growl).

"Stay" command to have the wolf sit and wait where it is. If left too long and the wolf gets hungry, chance of it wondering off, especially if game wonders too near where it's waiting.

Chance of scaring off other wolves or entering combat with the other wolf. Random on which wins weighted by relative strengths of the two wolves. Aided if the player of course decides to protect his friend, and shoots the other wolf.

Could be a very rare spawn of a "white wolf" that is actually a dog/wolf hybrid. No one else here read "White Fang?"
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Willbonney Pathfinder

Willbonney

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NIce little article here. Study narrows origin of dogs Cornell Chronicle

Cornell University

FTA:

Their findings revealed the three wolves were more closely related to each other than to any of the dogs. Likewise, the two dog genomes and a third boxer genome resembled each other more closely than the wolves. This suggests that modern dogs and gray wolves represent sister branches on an evolutionary tree descending from an older, common ancestor. The results contrast with previous theories that speculated dogs evolved from one of the sampled populations of gray wolves.

Oh and as far as the game play goes, could be interesting.

Heh, that article is a report of the study I linked above.

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