suggestion Add a BEAR SPEAR to survival

[Semple Fi]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:32 AM, Leeanda said:

In all honesty I can't see it as being that useful.  I wouldn't want to carry it around just in case a bear or moose decides to attack. . I'm overburdened enough as it is.  The rest of the weapons have their uses and carry less risk anyway.  But I guess I'm in the minority on this. 

The ballistic vest isn’t all that useful either.  It’s just an overly heavy burden in survival mode.  And yet, it’s still there.  
IMO (lol) The spear would be  especially useful for interloper, given that there are no rifles.  
Plus, it’s just plain fun 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Semple Fi]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:35 AM, Ghurcb said:

Well, it takes 30 hours to make a bearskin coat, and it's not even the best clothing item due to its weight. Of course, the spear would also require you to burn coal while forging it, but that's a pretty fair way of making it a late-game tool. And you don't have to do it all in one go. AND once you make the first spear, making the second will take less time, as you already have the spear head.

Nope. Complete silence ever since.

So the clothing items require cutting and sewing, reasonably taking a long time to craft.  
A bow is a more reasonable comparison with the sapling cure time.  Fashioning a spear shaft in real life really doesn’t take long, and  forging the spear head would be comparable to the crafted axe.
Realistically, the bulk of the crafting time should be in obtaining and curing the wood; obtaining needed coal and metal, and forging.  
And why not be able to repair it with a whetstone? Or scrap metal and the mill during an Aurora?

 

 In my opinion…..

[Semple Fi]

On 3/24/2022 at 7:47 PM, Bearimpaler101 said:

I agree with the wolves part but moose i'm not sure I think you shouldn't be able to use it but it keeps moose from attacking you as in when it gets close enough with a set spear  a "struggle" occurs more likecutscene where the moose tries to stomp but sees the spear and backs off but still takes spear damage

Perhaps that’s why it hasn’t been implemented yet.  
The animation for the spear bear struggle already exists, it would require an incredible amount of additional coding to implement it for moose, as well as adding it to the Wolf struggle.  
And no option for throwing, melee weapon open.  

[Ghurcb]

On 4/1/2022 at 10:47 PM, Semple Fi said:

So the clothing items require cutting and sewing, reasonably taking a long time to craft.  
A bow is a more reasonable comparison with the sapling cure time.  Fashioning a spear shaft in real life really doesn’t take long, and  forging the spear head would be comparable to the crafted axe.

No, it wouldn't. The model of improvised axe is basically a flattened sharpened pipe. A spear head would have to be able to withstand the weight of a whole bear (and as we have already figured out, it can reach 250kg). Forging it would take a lot of knowledge, skill, and time. And The Survivor lacks severely in the first two. Thankfully, time is abundant, so you should be able to forge a somewhat decent spear head trough enough trial and error. At least, that's how I see it.

On 4/1/2022 at 10:47 PM, Semple Fi said:

And why not be able to repair it with a whetstone? Or scrap metal and the mill during an Aurora?

Honestly? Because it would be too easy. If you can fix the spear with so little effort, once you make one, that's it. You'll have it until the end of your run. No need for more than a single oak sapling, no need to reforge the head.

I think, if the spear has limited number of uses, that allows for making it a little OP. You wouldn't use it all the time. You would consider some other options of dealing with bears (like a flare gun, for example). Because, if the spear breaks, you'll have to make a new one.

On 4/1/2022 at 10:50 PM, Semple Fi said:

Perhaps that’s why it hasn’t been implemented yet.  
The animation for the spear bear struggle already exists, it would require an incredible amount of additional coding to implement it for moose, as well as adding it to the Wolf struggle.  

Honestly, I don't get why people want the spear to be effective against all the wildlife. It was originally pitched as The Bear Spear. Not as The Everything Spear.

Here's a point of perspective I haven't mentioned before. If The Bear Spear becomes universally useful, it would be too similar to spears from all the other survival games. A new player would look at the crafting menu and go "Oh, a spear! That's the first thing you have to craft in any survival game! I should get to it right now!". But if it's called "The Bear Spear", a new player will immediately realise "This thing can kill bears. That sounds awesome, but also extremely late-game. I'll have to do a lot of work to get one of these."

In short, "Bear Spear" sounds more unique (and TLD-like) than just "A Spear". That's why it should only be effective against bears.

[Semple Fi]

6 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

No, it wouldn't. The model of improvised axe is basically a flattened sharpened pipe. A spear head would have to be able to withstand the weight of a whole bear (and as we have already figured out, it can reach 250kg). Forging it would take a lot of knowledge, skill, and time. And The Survivor lacks severely in the first two. Thankfully, time is abundant, so you should be able to forge a somewhat decent spear head trough enough trial and error. At least, that's how I see it.

Honestly? Because it would be too easy. If you can fix the spear with so little effort, once you make one, that's it. You'll have it until the end of your run. No need for more than a single oak sapling, no need to reforge the head.

I think, if the spear has limited number of uses, that allows for making it a little OP. You wouldn't use it all the time. You would consider some other options of dealing with bears (like a flare gun, for example). Because, if the spear breaks, you'll have to make a new one.

Honestly, I don't get why people want the spear to be effective against all the wildlife. It was originally pitched as The Bear Spear. 

I appreciate your point of view, You’re suggesting a huge arrow essentially.  Limited use, shaft breaks then is harvested and repaired?

 That’s fine. 
 

However, the point about an inexperienced survivor; add another book to research/make your crafting ability contingent on the archery books, etc. 
  Or make the spear require being found first to unlock the plans.  Like in wintermute.  Or the plans for noise makers in blackrock.  
 

Repairing it during the Aurora isn’t  necessarily easy in interloper…. It would require surviving that long 🤣

 And on the subject Down another rabbit hole… if we can craft ammo, why not a firearm?

[Bearimpaler101]

8 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

No, it wouldn't. The model of improvised axe is basically a flattened sharpened pipe. A spear head would have to be able to withstand the weight of a whole bear (and as we have already figured out, it can reach 250kg). Forging it would take a lot of knowledge, skill, and time. And The Survivor lacks severely in the first two. Thankfully, time is abundant, so you should be able to forge a somewhat decent spear head trough enough trial and error. At least, that's how I see it.

Honestly? Because it would be too easy. If you can fix the spear with so little effort, once you make one, that's it. You'll have it until the end of your run. No need for more than a single oak sapling, no need to reforge the head.

I think, if the spear has limited number of uses, that allows for making it a little OP. You wouldn't use it all the time. You would consider some other options of dealing with bears (like a flare gun, for example). Because, if the spear breaks, you'll have to make a new one.

Honestly, I don't get why people want the spear to be effective against all the wildlife. It was originally pitched as The Bear Spear. Not as The Everything Spear.

Here's a point of perspective I haven't mentioned before. If The Bear Spear becomes universally useful, it would be too similar to spears from all the other survival games. A new player would look at the crafting menu and go "Oh, a spear! That's the first thing you have to craft in any survival game! I should get to it right now!". But if it's called "The Bear Spear", a new player will immediately realise "This thing can kill bears. That sounds awesome, but also extremely late-game. I'll have to do a lot of work to get one of these."

In short, "Bear Spear" sounds more unique (and TLD-like) than just "A Spear". That's why it should only be effective against bears.

...your right moose shouldn't be damaged by the spear  but I don't think that it should just get you anyway same with wolves with wolves I think when you are it they run away and moose just run to you and run back though your right about it being more told like. Thank you for your input.

[Ghurcb]

On 4/4/2022 at 8:28 PM, Semple Fi said:

You’re suggesting a huge arrow essentially.  Limited use, shaft breaks then is harvested and repaired?

Well, a spear IS a huge arrow, so I guess you're right.

On 4/4/2022 at 8:28 PM, Semple Fi said:

However, the point about an inexperienced survivor; add another book to research/make your crafting ability contingent on the archery books, etc. 

Idk... A whole new skill for a single weapon is a bit too much. Sure, bows, rifles, and revolvers get their own skill, but 1) I don't think they should and 2) Spear is more like an axe or knife or any other melee weapon in that regard. Connecting it to archery books is a rather wierd idea. I get it, spear is a big arrow. But it would definitely confuse the players.

On 4/4/2022 at 8:28 PM, Semple Fi said:

Or make the spear require being found first to unlock the plans.  Like in wintermute.  Or the plans for noise makers in blackrock.

This one I don't like. The way I see it, you should be able to work towards making the spear from the very beginning of the run. You can craft fur coats, you can craft bows, you should be able to craft a spear. This boundary of first having to find a blueprint or a broken spear or whatever seems a little artificial to me. I don't like it.

On 4/4/2022 at 8:28 PM, Semple Fi said:

 And on the subject Down another rabbit hole… if we can craft ammo, why not a firearm?

Realistically, in order to make a firearm you'd have to first break a firearm. And the one you'd make, would be worse. I just don't see much usefulness in adding a DIY pipe gun.

[Semple Fi]

3 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

Well, a spear IS a huge arrow, so I guess you're right.

Idk... A whole new skill for a single weapon is a bit too much. Sure, bows, rifles, and revolvers get their own skill, but 1) I don't think they should and 2) Spear is more like an axe or knife or any other melee weapon in that regard. Connecting it to archery books is a rather wierd idea. I get it, spear is a big arrow. But it would definitely confuse the players.

This one I don't like. The way I see it, you should be able to work towards making the spear from the very beginning of the run. You can craft fur coats, you can craft bows, you should be able to craft a spear. This boundary of first having to find a blueprint or a broken spear or whatever seems a little artificial to me. I don't like it.

Realistically, in order to make a firearm you'd have to first break a firearm. And the one you'd make, would be worse. I just don't see much usefulness in adding a DIY pipe gun.

Well you sure don’t like any of my ideas 😢🥲 Can’t say I didn’t try

 You don’t like the pipe gun idea, but it’s a great idea lol!

[Pablo_Loko]

I noticed that many of the items offered on the forum for the game do not have a very important indicator. For some reason, people offering something often forget about weight! In the case of a spear, the weight should be 6-7 kg, and maybe even 10 kg. Firstly, it is close to reality. Secondly, the player will once again think whether to take him with him on a sortie.

[APixelatedLemon]

I kinda doubt a bear spear would really work in survival mode. To me the fight with 'Old Bear' was rather dull and tedious after the first encounter with him at the second radio tower, and while I actually enjoyed the sort of stealth section with him in his lair it was brought down again having to stab with the spear some more. When it was over I was more like "Ugh, it's finally over" rather than "Yes, I did it!"

And having the bear spear in survival mode would basically be that tedium but potentially an infinite amount of times.

I can only really see the bear spear being added to a 'Hunted Part 3 challenge' if they ever get around to completing that story line.

[Bearimpaler101]

I think that it should be able to scare off wolves in some way but otherwise only right with bears

[Ghurcb]

20 hours ago, APixelatedLemon said:

I kinda doubt a bear spear would really work in survival mode. To me the fight with 'Old Bear' was rather dull and tedious after the first encounter with him at the second radio tower, and while I actually enjoyed the sort of stealth section with him in his lair it was brought down again having to stab with the spear some more. When it was over I was more like "Ugh, it's finally over" rather than "Yes, I did it!"

And having the bear spear in survival mode would basically be that tedium but potentially an infinite amount of times.

I can only really see the bear spear being added to a 'Hunted Part 3 challenge' if they ever get around to completing that story line.

The reason why the Old Bear fight in Wintermute isn't that interesting is because it's the same thing over and over again. You must visit the three radio towers and at the second and third you'd have to impale the bear 3 times. Then the same thing in the cave. There's no risk, as failing the QTE is pretty hard and if you don't set the spear in time and get mauled, you will restart from your last save.

In all those regards, the survival mode is completely different from Wintermute. 

1. Bears are few and far between
2. You never know when you meet one
3. If you die, the save file is lost forever
4. In my opinion, it shouldn't be easy to win the QTE. Maybe even impossible with your fatigue below 25%
5. The time you can hold the spear wold have to be increased, so you don't die the first time you use it
6. If you win the struggle, the bear should die immediately or shortly after

[APixelatedLemon]

2 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

The reason why the Old Bear fight in Wintermute isn't that interesting is because it's the same thing over and over again. You must visit the three radio towers and at the second and third you'd have to impale the bear 3 times. Then the same thing in the cave. There's no risk, as failing the QTE is pretty hard and if you don't set the spear in time and get mauled, you will restart from your last save.

In all those regards, the survival mode is completely different from Wintermute. 

1. Bears are few and far between
2. You never know when you meet one
3. If you die, the save file is lost forever
4. In my opinion, it shouldn't be easy to win the QTE. Maybe even impossible with your fatigue below 25%
5. The time you can hold the spear wold have to be increased, so you don't die the first time you use it
6. If you win the struggle, the bear should die immediately or shortly after

I should have made this more clear in my original post, but the reason why I found the spear in Wintermute to be annoying was all it was was just MASHMASHMASHMASHMASHMASH, unless they changed that then I would want no part of using it. And yes I know you can change that in accessibility options (which yes I have done), but that then makes the struggles too easy.

If I had a say in it, I would replace the "MASHMASHMASHMASHMASHMASH" event with something akin to Shadow of Wars "second chance" quick time event. Where you have to move your cursor into a circle then press a specific button, repeat 3 times or so, failing to do so in time would result in a mauling, and potential death. If your character was low on fatigue than perhaps you would be hindered by having less time, or your cursor would move slower, or maybe even both.

As for wolf struggles, I would replace it with the same thing, instead the time limit would be your own condition bar. And perhaps using a hammer as your struggle weapon would make you only have to do the quick times even twice instead of three times. And using a revolver would let you do the event once, then you can fire to scare off/kill the wolf.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by APixelatedLemon
grammatical fixes

[Semple Fi]

Well I liked the bear fight…..

 and I like the idea of the bear spear….

I don’t care how it’s incorporated, that’s all semantics for Hinterland…

[Ghurcb]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:39 PM, APixelatedLemon said:

I should have made this more clear in my original post, but the reason why I found the spear in Wintermute to be annoying was all it was was just MASHMASHMASHMASHMASHMASH, unless they changed that then I would want no part of using it. And yes I know you can change that in accessibility options (which yes I have done), but that then makes the struggles too easy.

If I had a say in it, I would replace the "MASHMASHMASHMASHMASHMASH" event with something akin to Shadow of Wars "second chance" quick time event. Where you have to move your cursor into a circle then press a specific button, repeat 3 times or so, failing to do so in time would result in a mauling, and potential death. If your character was low on fatigue than perhaps you would be hindered by having less time, or your cursor would move slower, or maybe even both.

As for wolf struggles, I would replace it with the same thing, instead the time limit would be your own condition bar. And perhaps using a hammer as your struggle weapon would make you only have to do the quick times even twice instead of three times. And using a revolver would let you do the event once, then you can fire to scare off/kill the wolf.

 

Sure, the MASHMASHMASH mechanic is... Simplistic.

But I don't think it's a problem. Quite the opposite, really. The MASHMASHMASH represents a brute force struggle as good as is possible in a video game. Moving a cursor in a specific shape could only represent a very careful and accurate motion. But as you fight a wolf, there's no time for precision. You hit it as hard as you can, as often as you can, while trying to keep all your limbs. The same would apply to a bear. You impale it and PUSH. AND PUSH! AND STAND YOUR GROUND!

"Draw a circle, press a specific button, repeat" would be completely out of place here.

Another problem I see with this objection to the MASHMASHMASH is that the MASHMASHMASH is one of the most intuitive QTE-interactions there are. Somewhere up there with the hold.

Seriously, when a game tells me to hold RT+LT, then switch to RB+LB and press X, then wiggle L3 a little, draw a semi-circle with R3, shake the controller, then balance the gyroscope, let go of RB, press the circle, and wiggle L3 again... It only serves to break the immersion. Such interactions do nothing but remind the player that they are holding a controller/mouse. 

The simpler the QTE is, the better. And you can't go much simpler than MASH or hold.

[APixelatedLemon]

5 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

Sure, the MASHMASHMASH mechanic is... Simplistic.

But I don't think it's a problem. Quite the opposite, really. The MASHMASHMASH represents a brute force struggle as good as is possible in a video game. Moving a cursor in a specific shape could only represent a very careful and accurate motion. But as you fight a wolf, there's no time for precision. You hit it as hard as you can, as often as you can, while trying to keep all your limbs. The same would apply to a bear. You impale it and PUSH. AND PUSH! AND STAND YOUR GROUND!

"Draw a circle, press a specific button, repeat" would be completely out of place here.

 

I get your point, but I personally feel like 'MASHMASHMASH' was unfitting for the context of "Try to stab a bear in it's vital area", I think that it fits with "Fight for your life with a wolf", because there you're not trying to strike the vital area, you're just trying to whack the wolf enough to save your bacon, so accuracy is not really a concern.

5 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

Another problem I see with this objection to the MASHMASHMASH is that the MASHMASHMASH is one of the most intuitive QTE-interactions there are. Somewhere up there with the hold.

Seriously, when a game tells me to hold RT+LT, then switch to RB+LB and press X, then wiggle L3 a little, draw a semi-circle with R3, shake the controller, then balance the gyroscope, let go of RB, press the circle, and wiggle L3 again... It only serves to break the immersion. Such interactions do nothing but remind the player that they are holding a controller/mouse. 

 I will agree with the first part, yes MASHING has been a very common thing in games for many years and will unfortunately (to me) stay forever. I even think that having a different quick time would confuse certain new players. "Of no I'm being attacked by a wolf! How do I get it off me?! What is that weird circle to the side- Oh I'm dead" is what I imagine how a lot of new players would react if something else was in it's place. So having a new mechanic would need some sort of explanation, which goes against the game being an "uncompromising survival experience"

Kind of reminds me of the very early versions of the game where the wolf fighting had a second step where you had to mash with left mouse, then press right mouse to "unleash power" to fight off the wolf. I wasn't playing the game at the time, but I did play those versions through the time capsule briefly and that version of the struggle really threw me off, which is likely the case for many new players at the time, and also likely why they changed it to only include the first step. 

As for breaking immersion I never really cared about immersion, especially when there are already a crap ton of things that break it to begin with. Like having a HUD, or and inventory screen, or a full days time going by in an hour. I get why some people care about immersion, I'm just not one of them.

My overall thoughts likely won't ever change, if a bear spear gets added, and has 'MASHING' be it's intended use, then I won't be up in arms, I just simply won't use it. So yeah let's agree to disagree and move on.

[Ghurcb]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:55 PM, APixelatedLemon said:

Kind of reminds me of the very early versions of the game where the wolf fighting had a second step where you had to mash with left mouse, then press right mouse to "unleash power" to fight off the wolf. I wasn't playing the game at the time, but I did play those versions through the time capsule briefly and that version of the struggle really threw me off, which is likely the case for many new players at the time, and also likely why they changed it to only include the first step. 

Oh my god... I've had exactly the same experience. It was a good call on part of Hinterland to remove it. The simpler some mechanics are - the better.

[Ghurcb]

Hm... On the TFTFT page acorns were listed as a part of free base game enhancements. And while there will be oak trees in the new regions, the old regions don't have them. Of course, Hinterland could add oaks to base game too. Alternatively, you could find the acorns near oak saplings... 

BEAR SPEAR CONFIRMED

Yes, this is a bit of a reach, but I do have a feeling that the bear spear is one of the unannounced features. Hinterland promised to add it a long time ago, and abandoning such a great idea... is not a great idea. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Ghurcb