There will be blood

[Drifter Man]

On 6/8/2022 at 10:19 PM, Pillock said:

I find Bleak Inlet quite enjoyable - but that's probably because I always switch Timberwolves off completely in the Custom settings.

I've encountered them in the Story Mode, but that's led directly to me not playing Story Mode at all since shortly after Episode 3 was released! I just can't be bothered with them - they only make the gameplay worse, in my opinion. But the Custom survival mode does allow you to play TLD without them, and it's still a lot of fun. It's got the same feel for me as it ever did - if I hadn't started looking at the forums again recently, I'd have forgotten that Timberwolves ever existed!

Bleak Inlet does feel a little empty, I suppose (though there is a bear). But it's still one of the more challenging regions to start out on, even without wolves.

I returned to this run after a break. I decided to discontinue it: I didn't feel the connection to it any more after I'd quit the game with my character in danger (sort of) and later reloaded from a save. But for the few days I played, I got remarkably good weather in BI - it was still very cold and windy, of course, but there were more frequent breaks with reasonable weather conditions, whereas in my earlier play it was just max wind all the time. It might be just random, or the weather may have been tweaked.

Good to know that the timberwolves can be turned off in the custom settings, although I don't mind the timberwolves per se. I was put off by their spawning in the cannery yard based on the player's movement, which violates the Law of Impartiality of Nature. I still hold a grudge 😐 The fact that the region is full of predators with next to no prey is strange, though. An empty region that you play in may be more believable.

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 6/25/2022 at 5:45 AM, Drifter Man said:

The fact that the region is full of predators with next to no prey is strange, though. An empty region that you play in may be more believable.

This puts a finger on something I've felt like but didn't actually manage to properly describe.

Bleak Inlet, strangely, feels ... empty... well, except for said timberwolves. One could even say: bleak. If that was the actual goal then kudos for capturing this so well. Having played a few and far between hours over the last 6 months (for several unrelated reasons, but most of them unpleasant) I'm not particularly aware if anything has changed. I recently visited the region in a "get back into form" stalker game, and I really contemplated why I dislike this region so much, but actually found blackrock to be quite enjoyable (in fact I regard it as one of the best maps in the game now). The reason is rather simple once you can put your finger on it:

There's nothing there except the obvious things to accomplish: get the code, wait your turn to get into the cannery workshop. Between that there is the remote light house, a remote trailer and a remote cabin with a lot of space inbetween. In fact it's not like there isn't anywhere to go, there's just not enough reason to go there since there is not enough to get there considering how far you'll have to go in exceptionally hostile weather with the exceptional threat of timberwolves. High risk, meh reward. In many ways how PV used to be before the EP3 update, just that BI isn't a region that connects to other more interesting regions, but actually pretty much a dead end - so you can skip it, and hence you probably will. Especially now that (basically) everything that made BI special is also to be had at the Blackrock Prison - and better in any way.

[Drifter Man]

BI is too obviously designed - by human hand - to be dangerous. This is why I don't like it, although the lack of things to do except using the workshop is probably also a factor.

I've been wondering what makes a good region in TLD. In my opinion, each of the earlier regions is a masterpiece: ML, CH, PV, DP, TWM and FM. Each has a unique character, interesting and memorable spots, good bases and multiple ways to get around. BR and MT are too linear - their design was probably subordinate to the needs of Wintermute, keeping the player in a narrow corridor. HRV and AC again show too obviously that they were designed by human hand: this time, to be puzzles to solve rather than places to inhabit. They are fun, though. I haven't been to Blackrock - if it is a great map that matches the earlier ones, that's is amazing.

The key to greatness is: the map needs to be liveable. You choose to stay in there and you enjoy it. In this respect, I acknowledge that different maps can work for different people.

I've also restarted TLD after the break, launching a few deadman runs for warm-up. But one of the first things that struck me again was that animals still aren't moving when you are not looking at them. As a result, wolves are too easy to game if you spot them early enough. Perhaps it's not completely game-breaking, but it gets close to it...

[stratvox]

I will agree, I think the animal AI could use a lot of TLC.

[Guest jeffpeng]

5 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

BR and MT are too linear - their design was probably subordinate to the needs of Wintermute, keeping the player in a narrow corridor.

I remember reading about that somewhere back when 1.0 launched. And you are correct - they almost didn't make it into survival because of that iirc. (And I'm still not a fan of further narrowing down MT with Redux)

5 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

They are fun, though. I haven't been to Blackrock - if it is a great map that matches the earlier ones, that's is amazing.

It's a great map in my opinion, but it's not as much a "place" as ML or CH is. It's more like a combination of PV, BI and HRV from a design perspective. It has clear objectives, it has defined points of interest with relatively lengthy transitions in between, and it obviously is designed to kill you. But opposed to BI it allows for counter play. Timberwolves, despite annoying, have clearer defined places where they occur and can be mostly circumvented if you are willing to take a detour.

5 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

The key to greatness is: the map needs to be liveable. You choose to stay in there and you enjoy it. In this respect, I acknowledge that different maps can work for different people.

That's a good point. I would also say "believable" in that too much of an obvious "design" behind a map sort of breaks the idea that you are in what could be a real place. As much as I love HRV, as much as I praise its level design every opportunity I get, at the same time it's not a location you would imagine existing. It gets closer to that goal than AC, but not quite there.

5 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I've also restarted TLD after the break, launching a few deadman runs for warm-up. But one of the first things that struck me again was that animals still aren't moving when you are not looking at them. As a result, wolves are too easy to game if you spot them early enough. Perhaps it's not completely game-breaking, but it gets close to it...

I've noticed that as well (playing a little bit of loper to learn the ropes again). I guess I can imagine why - but I don't like it either. The reason I can fathom this is the case are more or less random interactions between several creatures. Wolves being pulled away by deer, running away from bears and moose. I've seen this escalate sometimes into situations where wolves would show up in corners of the map they had no business being. You can mitigate this problem by limiting their freedom of travel when nobody is looking (Does a wolf move if nobody is there to see it? xD) but you create this other problem where the world sorta doesn't happen until you interact with it.

(As a side note: if that is a commentary on the interpretation of quantum physics that reality only exists when there is a conscious mind interacting with it then.... well, well played, folks. 😄 )

Edited June 30, 2022 by jeffpeng

[Drifter Man]

On 7/1/2022 at 4:46 AM, jeffpeng said:

I remember reading about that somewhere back when 1.0 launched. And you are correct - they almost didn't make it into survival because of that iirc. (And I'm still not a fan of further narrowing down MT with Redux)

I must have read it myself - somehow it got fixed in my head that those were primarily Wintermute maps. Still, I'm happy for having got them.

On 7/1/2022 at 4:46 AM, jeffpeng said:

I've noticed that as well (playing a little bit of loper to learn the ropes again). I guess I can imagine why - but I don't like it either. The reason I can fathom this is the case are more or less random interactions between several creatures. Wolves being pulled away by deer, running away from bears and moose. I've seen this escalate sometimes into situations where wolves would show up in corners of the map they had no business being. You can mitigate this problem by limiting their freedom of travel when nobody is looking (Does a wolf move if nobody is there to see it? xD) but you create this other problem where the world sorta doesn't happen until you interact with it.

Clearly a TLD wolf does not move when there is nobody to see it 🙂

Random interactions and wolves off in places where they normally shouldn't be is not a bad thing IMO. Of course, if the animals are out of sighting range, it is ok that they stay suspended - it would be a waste of resources, plus any rabbits and deer whose areas overlap with active wolf patrol zones would get wiped out before the player could see them. I just think that the minimum range from the player at which the animal movement stops should be substantially extended, right now it is too close and the mechanic is too easy to notice - and to take advantage of.

[Guest jeffpeng]

8 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Random interactions and wolves off in places where they normally shouldn't be is not a bad thing IMO. Of course, if the animals are out of sighting range, it is ok that they stay suspended - it would be a waste of resources, plus any rabbits and deer whose areas overlap with active wolf patrol zones would get wiped out before the player could see them. I just think that the minimum range from the player at which the animal movement stops should be substantially extended, right now it is too close and the mechanic is too easy to notice - and to take advantage of.

Actually that might also be a reason!

I mean ... the Jaguar consoles are already chronically starved when it comes to CPU processing grunt. But the switch is even worse. So while it really wouldn't matter on any other system, in maybe would there. And I doubt that they really branched the code "just" for the switch.

[Drifter Man]

20 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

Actually that might also be a reason!

I mean ... the Jaguar consoles are already chronically starved when it comes to CPU processing grunt. But the switch is even worse. So while it really wouldn't matter on any other system, in maybe would there. And I doubt that they really branched the code "just" for the switch.

Interesting - I just speculated, I did not actually think that CPU power could be an issue, this is not a flight simulator or anything. I had no idea that tracking the movement and interactions of a few animals could tax the resources of some platforms.

[Guest jeffpeng]

12 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Interesting - I just speculated, I did not actually think that CPU power could be an issue, this is not a flight simulator or anything. I had no idea that tracking the movement and interactions of a few animals could tax the resources of some platforms.

Well it really is just speculation. But a) is TLD made with unity, which in term is based on C#, hence not actually platform native code, which comes with some significant overhead. And b) the Switch's Tegra X1 really is technically a 2015ish tablet SoC in terms CPU processing power which nvidia took and bolted half a GTX 750(!) onto.

Honestly, I'm astonished every time that Nintendo actually not only went and used this thing, but actually is still using it in the current iteration of the console. Having worked with Tegra X1 systems (mostly for hobbyist stuff) I am amazed it even works, and it actually works pretty damn well. But it is feasible that come concessions had to be made.

[Drifter Man]

On 7/4/2022 at 9:32 AM, jeffpeng said:

Well it really is just speculation. But a) is TLD made with unity, which in term is based on C#, hence not actually platform native code, which comes with some significant overhead. And b) the Switch's Tegra X1 really is technically a 2015ish tablet SoC in terms CPU processing power which nvidia took and bolted half a GTX 750(!) onto.

Honestly, I'm astonished every time that Nintendo actually not only went and used this thing, but actually is still using it in the current iteration of the console. Having worked with Tegra X1 systems (mostly for hobbyist stuff) I am amazed it even works, and it actually works pretty damn well. But it is feasible that come concessions had to be made.

I have no idea what you are talking about. But it seems to me that you are an expert 

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 7/5/2022 at 11:31 AM, Drifter Man said:

it seems to me that you are an expert

Yeah... no 😄