More loot randomness

[Razum]

3 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

That depends on how many repeat cards you have in the deck and how many total cards there are in the deck.  There are hundreds of loot sites in TLD and some items only spawn once (e.g. crampons) and others only spawn a few times on higher difficulties.  Currently, the singular items only spawn in a single location and the items that spawn only a few times spawn in a small number of set locations that are dependent on each other (i.e. the 4 loot tables commonly referenced in Interloper and the "source" of the complaints about how predictable those runs are).  Of course, contributing to that predictability is how the Interloper players tend to play... bee-lining towards those locations that are connected into those 4 loot tables repeatedly.  If the locations were made more truly random, they would not be "connected" to one another in such a predictable pattern.

The pattern is less evident to the players on the lower difficulties, but they are still there and they can eventually be memorized to some extent.  For example, by playing Broken Railroad only runs for some time, I have identified that there are only 3 possible locations in the entire zone where a certain corpse will spawn... and that corpse will always have a knife on it (voyageur difficulty).  Similarly, there are 3 possible locations where a campfire will spawn... and that's where you will find the hatchet.  The corpse with the bow lying next to a deer also has a set 3 locations where it can spawn.  The locations also have a relationship to each other such that if Corpse 1 is found in location 1, Corpse 2 will be found in it's location 1, etc.  There are additional instances of these tools that may spawn in other containers or they may absent entirely - possibly spawning in associated containers in other zones... but these corpses and their relationship to the zone and each other remains intact and guarantees one instance of each item spawning within the zone on the easy difficulty.

  If those locations were added together and those same 3 items were placed in the zone and if they could all be found on occasion lumped together on one corpse or not, even if the player knows all nine loot locations, they may have to search all nine spots before coming with the items rather than being able to predict that they will find each item in only  1 of 3 spots.  Taking away the restriction that 1 of each of these items has to spawn within BR zone, would mean that they could search all 9 locations in BR and come up with bupkis.

Now, tell me again... which system is "random" and which is not.

Definition of random, FYI = "made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision."  By definition, therefore, incompatible with the idea that more randomness would be more realistic.  IRL, people organize their stuff... making conscious decisions about where to put it.  Your scenario of dropped ammo means that the person made a conscious decision to not pick it up again'; therefore, it represents less randomness, not more.  It also involves a conscious decision of the dev to tell that little bit of story with the ammo as a prop.  Randomness, by definition, contradicts conscious story-telling in games.

My point wasn't just more randomness. It's distribution. This system now is in fact random. But the gameplay in the longrun isn't. As you say, you could just go to all 9 locations and are sure to find these items, no 'real' randomness. I mean, it is random; but in gameplay terms, it's not, because you have a strategy. Same as described here https://casinoandsportstalk.com/articles/does-the-bet-doubling-strategy-work.php
If you are for example not able to find a hatchet in the entire BR, you have to move earlier than you would have if you were to find it. Same goes for bow and other gear. It would be more random. That's the goal here. So, I don't really understand your point.
The thing with the dropped ammo is just an example of how intelligent distribution could make item finds feel more realistic. It's really unrealistic, that you find one soup or other food in every second shelve. It's more likely, the peoples who lived in those houses would put all their remaining food in the same. It would be less random, but more compelling. In gamplay-perspective it would be less random, but, I guess and hope, more exciting, as you think about, what might have happened there. And since it's not prescripted, but only chance, it won't feel like you've seen it before.

Problem with procedurality is, it always feels the same, even then it's different. At this point, it might also be like it, but still it would be better, then the current system.

[Lycrist]

1 hour ago, Razum said:

My point wasn't just more randomness. It's distribution. This system now is in fact random. But the gameplay in the longrun isn't. As you say, you could just go to all 9 locations and are sure to find these items, no 'real' randomness. I mean, it is random; but in gameplay terms, it's not, because you have a strategy. Same as described here https://casinoandsportstalk.com/articles/does-the-bet-doubling-strategy-work.php
If you are for example not able to find a hatchet in the entire BR, you have to move earlier than you would have if you were to find it. Same goes for bow and other gear. It would be more random. That's the goal here. So, I don't really understand your point.
The thing with the dropped ammo is just an example of how intelligent distribution could make item finds feel more realistic. It's really unrealistic, that you find one soup or other food in every second shelve. It's more likely, the peoples who lived in those houses would put all their remaining food in the same. It would be less random, but more compelling. In gamplay-perspective it would be less random, but, I guess and hope, more exciting, as you think about, what might have happened there. And since it's not prescripted, but only chance, it won't feel like you've seen it before.

Problem with procedurality is, it always feels the same, even then it's different. At this point, it might also be like it, but still it would be better, then the current system.

If you think there's too much loot, why don't you play on Interloper (or interloper loot settings)?

Edited April 14, 2021 by Lycrist

[oplli]

I totally agree loot tables need some tweaks although i do not think that making them more "random" would be the solution. i wouldn't want to find a weapon to often or the opposite : never. if we rely on complete randomness sometimes we could even be able to find 2 rifles in the same region in one playthtrough and none in another. i think that loot tables are perfectly balanced for survival and we are always happy to find some rare loot. 

so the solution could be to completely change the loot tables but stay with the same system. as @Sito said, he has 3000 or so hours of play wich is a lot and i totally believe you know all the loot tables. so the solution could be to simply every once  in a while change the loot tables completely to give a sense of randomness and keep the interest  of exploration in new playthroughs.