Melting snow \ Boiling water

[mnaah]

Just don't be like the hundreds of other idiots who think eating snow is a good idea in a survival situation. That's bad, m'kay. Reduces your core temperature so much it'll take more water from you system to restore your temperature than the small amount of water you get from melting the snow in your mouth/stomach.

The argument that it you'd consume more water melting snow in your mouth/body than you get from snow is just ridiculous.

Copied from an other debate on the issue:

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie

So 1 calorie = 1 degree celcius (roughly with minor variation). Okay easy. Except it takes 30 times that to melt it initially. Screw snow, let's figure on ice cubes.

1 liter of water frozen to ice 1 liter water = 1 kg water, (1000c * 30) 30,000 calories to for the first degree and then 36500 for the next 36.5° (to achieve 37.5 °C, temperature of the human body)

66500 little c calories

That's 66.5 dietary calories, because a dietary calorie is actually a kilocalorie.

How much water does it take to process 66.5 dietary calories? No where near a liter or we'd all be dead the next time we ate a christmas supper. "

So if it would take a liter of water to burn 66.5 calories, an average person with a 2000 calorie diet would have to drink about about 30 liters (about 8 gallons) of water a day. And drinking that much water would kill you...

Besides, if you've ever held snow in your hand, you know it doesn't take such a huge amount of energy to melt it.

[Ryan CM]

ALL: Headsup - discussion is great, but please ensure it is civil. Thanks!

[Willbonney]

The argument that it you'd consume more water melting snow in your mouth/body than you get from snow is just ridiculous.

You're focusing on the math and abstract. The actuality of the situation isn't the energy expended doing the melting, it's the energy expended in recovery and healing from the action. The damage to the lips and mouth, the throat and stomach. The increased amount of frostbite caused to your skin and hands due to exposing them to the elements. The reduction in core temperature, leaving you more susceptible to illness, let alone hypothermia. Hypothermia is worse in these situations than dehydration. Fever caused by an infection to a section of the skin and lips suffering frostbite is worse in these situations than dehydration. Dehydration, though bad, is survivable for a number of days. It varies person to person, but 3 days is considered by most to be minimum, and a week being the high end when vomiting and diarrhea will kick in for most folks. At that point, you're really in some trouble.

It's why so many hunters and trackers up north have taken to wearing those body flasks that the military and later athletes took to wearing. Ironically many of the Inupiatan and Qawiaraq I've met in Alaska and the Yukon have been using them for hundreds of years. Using seal, looks a lot like an old school water bladder that wraps around the body, and usually they wear two for long hunts. If you're ever up that way, I'd advise having one as well. Also, if anyone up there ever asks you "do you take steam," be careful. It's a bit more intense than stepping in a sauna here down south.

[mnaah]

You're focusing on the math and abstract. The actuality of the situation isn't the energy expended doing the melting, it's the energy expended in recovery and healing from the action.

I was focusing on the math 'cause the argument was math based. It is a fact that processing the food (energy) to melt snow consumes no where near the amount of water that you get from the melted snow. So can we please agree on that?

Now when it comes to to the rest of the problems (hypothermia, local frostbike) and practice:

Have you ever had ice cream or perhaps even a popsicle? Did you survive?

I have, and I did. I've even eaten snow as a kid, plenty of times.

Or ask this guy, who I believe know a lot more about winter survival than you or me:

Or ask the old USAF Arctic Survival Manual:

" In the winter it is perfectly safe to eat snow or cracked ice in small quantities during the day when you are traveling and don't want to take the time necessary to melt it down. Eaten in large quantities, however, it chills the stomach and reduces your body temperature. "

http://www.arcticwebsite.com/USAAFsurvival.html

So you definitely can eat snow for hydration, small quantities at a time. Hypothermia can be a problem, but in the game that is a different value, and depends on whether or not you have access to a warm place or not.

And if we start to talk about drinking cold water, carrying multiple liters of potable water would not be easy either in reality, without the water freezing (been there, and it is annoying). Indeed, you could add water freezing in when you carry it outside for additional problem to deal with and a new item (thermos bottle) to solve that.

I think in the game this could be implemented as having "eat snow" as an alternative, that would increase your cold value a bit, and lower your thirst value a bit (NOT all the way down). The bacteria risk could be kept, even though that risk is very small in real life, it is still a real risk, and this is after all a video game, and not supposed to be realistic to the very end.

[toebar]

to be fair.. I don't usually eat ice cream when it is freezing cold outside

The point is that it is a cool treat, and cools your body down when its hot out. If the same happens when your body is already cool, then you could have a hypothermia issue.

I think there are a few key points here:

- small quantities at a time: it's about moderation

- consume during activity: to generate excess heat and avoid cooling your body too much

- don't chew: you can cause injury to you lips and mouth

The same goes for cold water-- except the chewing

edit: forgot to add that your USAAF link is pretty decent!

[Willbonney]

It brings me to chuckles that you bring up the old WW2 field manual, some of those still exist and I've seen a few in some of the Inuit villages. A guy in Kipnuk (google it if you want) pointed one out to me to have a good laugh at while we were drinking coffee watching the melt on his porch. A lot of the "Eskimo" phrases it refers to do not translate to what the guide tries to come across as.

But I will assent, in small amounts in moderation as a very last resort, as in you've gone a couple days without water, eh, go for it. If you've gotten yourself into a situation like that, and haven't figured out another source, and you have no other choice, might help you survive a little longer. That's also the 2nd time that someone has posted a link to that guy. That person is a part of some company called "Wilderness Innovation," an outfit that sells what they refer to as survival equipment. Having bad experiences with several salesmen, I personally wouldn't put my chances of survival on his advice.

"Survivorman" Les Stroud I've definitely heard of, and enjoy watching his show. Season 1 he did a mocked planed crash survival episode in northern Ontario I think it was. Found it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tq4a0dW3VD8

At about the 10 minute mark, he says he plans to eat snow to re-hydrate, but not once in the video do you see him do it so I'm not really sure what he did for water. He's always seemed an honest person though, so I seriously doubt there's any behind-the-scenes trickery.

[Willbonney]

Just watched another of the Wilderness Innovation videos, enjoyed the one where the guy tests a Doan Magnesium firestarter compared to a generic Chinese one. Lot of folks have known for years those Chinese ones were junk, but I liked seeing it proven.

[toebar]

Just watched another of the Wilderness Innovation videos, enjoyed the one where the guy tests a Doan Magnesium firestarter compared to a generic Chinese one. Lot of folks have known for years those Chinese ones were junk, but I liked seeing it proven.

had to go check out that fire starter one... yikes.

[slyreaper]

1. clean melted snow is not a major risk. It should be assumed that since no one is alive except the wild life, the player would gather clean snow with no animal tracks around it. If you can find some other examples of snow melt being unfit to drink from the Canadian wilderness please post it.

2. the time it takes to boil snow on a wood stove is completly unrealistic. I have / do use wood stoves like in the game. They burn very hot and it dosent take long. please see this chart for BTU p/h reference

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm

and this one for boil water calculation.

http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html

as you can see at 33,000 BTU/h stove ( which appears to be represented in the game ) boil time is 3 min per Gal ( 5-6 ) is about right.

As for the bottle / pot dilemma. some of the stoves in game have a pot an pan right on top already. Unless your camping in the wilderness this is sufficient. But for camping it would be more realistic to have some kind of pot or even just a mess kit.

So i guess no one really cares about the stove stats vs boil and melt times ?

[toebar]

are you suggesting different melt/boil times based on the type of stove/heat source?

[elloco999]

Just watched another of the Wilderness Innovation videos, enjoyed the one where the guy tests a Doan Magnesium firestarter compared to a generic Chinese one. Lot of folks have known for years those Chinese ones were junk, but I liked seeing it proven.

had to go check out that fire starter one... yikes.

Yeah, watched that one as well. That "generic chinese" magnesium bar is downright dangerous if you rely on that to start a fire in an emergency.

But I am always a bit skeptic about so called proof that a certain product is much better than it's competition when it's the manufacturer of that product doing the proofing... I have no doubt that there are very poor magnesium blocks out there, nor that their product is a good product, but are all generic chinese magnesium blocks that bad (the impression the video is trying very hard to convey)? Probably not.

If this video shows you anything, it's that you need to try out your survival tools before you're in an actual survival situation!

So i guess no one really cares about the stove stats vs boil and melt times ?

I agree that boil times on a stove should be less than on an open fire. Stoves should also heat a room more than an open fire (not sure if this is already in the game) and should be more fuel efficient than an open fire.

[Willbonney]

Nah, he wasn't the manufacturer, just a supplier of what he calls "survival kits" in which he includes one of the Doan's. As to your point of all generic chinese starters that bad, well yes, that's the general consensus. I've tried using one once when I was a teenager, one of my dad's, and failed miserably. Ended up whipping out the Zippo. Definite agreement though on the testing stuff out deal. One of the first things I used to do before and after every trip I undertook was to inspect the gear in my pack, and any time I bought a new product, to test out its usefulness prior to relying on it.

As for boiling times, hmm. I think I'd rather see tools added to increase melting and boiling times. Say stuff like a pan, kettle, coffee pot, and/or a large pot. These types of items could also increase cooking speeds, as well as improve the quality of cooked canned foods. Stuff like the pan, skillet, roasting pan, baking sheet, cast iron griddles, or similar.

I'd rather see more stuff added to the game to improve the different gameplay mechanics we find lacking, than changing the actual mechanics. More sand in the box is always preferable to me.

[toebar]

it's certainly a good example of you get what you pay for.

I like the idea of requiring a vessel for boiling water (it would just be a drop-down selection, like add firewood, or cook item is now.

If all you have is an empty pork and beans can, it's going to be a pain to melt snow and boil water a canful at a time-- but them's the breaks; it's incentive to find a better vessel, but also works in a pinch so that you don't have to carry a heavy iron pan around with you.

[Boston123]

it's certainly a good example of you get what you pay for.

I like the idea of requiring a vessel for boiling water (it would just be a drop-down selection, like add firewood, or cook item is now.

If all you have is an empty pork and beans can, it's going to be a pain to melt snow and boil water a canful at a time-- but them's the breaks; it's incentive to find a better vessel, but also works in a pinch so that you don't have to carry a heavy iron pan around with you.

Hey, I use a #10 can in the backwoods as a pot. Works fine. I actually prefer it over a "real" pot, as it tends to be lighter, and cheaper to replace if it gets dinged up and soot-covered.

[toebar]

haha fair enough I don't see why this can't be a viable option.. Condition just degrades faster

[TLDFAN]

it's certainly a good example of you get what you pay for.

I like the idea of requiring a vessel for boiling water (it would just be a drop-down selection, like add firewood, or cook item is now.

If all you have is an empty pork and beans can, it's going to be a pain to melt snow and boil water a canful at a time-- but them's the breaks; it's incentive to find a better vessel, but also works in a pinch so that you don't have to carry a heavy iron pan around with you.

Exactly what is needed, a trade-off system. Do you want the large capacity, then you have to pay the move weight cost.

[AmericanSteel]

You can also melt snow in a container using body heat. Pack snow in a bottle and put it between you inner and outer layer of clothing. I kept a 2 quart canteen with snow between my ruck and my back. Collected the snow off tree boughs. After all the snow melts, you are only going to get a few mouthfuls to drink, even out of a 2 quart... but it is better than nothing. Never did it on a road march (as the military provides potable water and only wants you to get if from their sources), but I have done it hunting in Colorado numerous times.

I would never drink from a stream or lake directly, as you never know what is happening nearby. There could be a dead animal rotting under the ice directly next to your fishing hole and you would never see it. I will not even go into animal defecation.

All that said, when are they going to let us fetch water from a ice hole? If I want to haul a few liters of water from the lake to my cabin to boil, I should get the option. For that matter, I want to start a fire and boil water while I am fishing. Not like I have anything else going on with my line in the water. The option to let something "simmer" on the fire should be added.