Melting snow \ Boiling water

[Renegade30]

There's an old saying, 'a watched pot never boils'. However in this game it does and is therefore unrealistic

Seriously though, can we not place our water\snow on the fire and do some other things instead of staring at it for up to several hours while the snow melts and the water boils? :roll:

[toebar]

hmmm.. makes me wonder what we're actually boiling the water in

edit: I guess its the ubiquitous plastic bottle -- http://www.wikihow.com/Boil-Water-in-a-Plastic-Bottle-over-a-Fire

Anyway, I like the idea of being able to attend to other things while melting/boiling.

[TLDFAN]

When you get past the fact we are melting snow without collecting it, and boiling water in amounts that are unlimited, and vastly exceed uncollected container capacity you realize, I hope that this mechanic needs a bit of realism added to it. While possible to boil water in a polymer rather than metal container, the polymer will invaringly warp and eventually a hole will open and allow for escape of the water. That's bad. The plastic makes the most sense to be used as a container, while the metal pots and pans can be re-heated indefinitely should be used to make water.

The times for melting snow and boiling water are about right. You need to accumulate a lot of snow to actually make a small amount of water. You also can't do that indoors the way you can in TLD. Something else they should consider changing.

[toebar]

agreed. There are various pots an pans laying about in various cabins..

To be fair, all that needs to be done in most cases to collect the snow would be to open the door/window step/reach out and grab snow. I suppose the game could include these steps... Thinking about this make me afraid of ninja wolves...

[Renegade30]

When you get past the fact we are melting snow without collecting it, and boiling water in amounts that are unlimited, and vastly exceed uncollected container capacity you realize, I hope that this mechanic needs a bit of realism added to it. While possible to boil water in a polymer rather than metal container, the polymer will invaringly warp and eventually a hole will open and allow for escape of the water. That's bad. The plastic makes the most sense to be used as a container, while the metal pots and pans can be re-heated indefinitely should be used to make water.

The times for melting snow and boiling water are about right. You need to accumulate a lot of snow to actually make a small amount of water. You also can't do that indoors the way you can in TLD. Something else they should consider changing.

The most snow you can melt at any time is 5l but strangely there doesn't appear to be a limit to the amount you can boil.

I'm not sure about making you harvest snow because in real life you need a hell of a lot of snow to get even 1l of water. Even though it's unrealistic to leave out this step I think it would be incredibly tedious and bad gameplay to include it.

I never really envisaged boiling water in a plastic bottle, although possible it's just not very practical because PE bottles, particularly PET which is the most common plastic for single use bottles, lose a lot of strength with high temperature. Although I haven't tried it I wouldn't see one being able to boil more than a litre of water in such a bottle without the weight overcoming the strength of the bottle material and causing it to fail. It's also not desirable because of toxic chemicals and the cumbersome arrangement you have to create in order to heat the bottle without melting it.

If I was in a survival situation and had access to pots and pans (often found in the shelters\homes in the long dark) I would be attaching the most light weight, largest pan I could find to my backpack. But yeah, the largest amount of water I could see you being able to boil at a time is 2.5l, which is okay. 2.5l of water takes what like 30 minutes to boil in tld? Thats 30 minutes worth I could spend mending my clothes, sorting out equipment even harvesting meat from an adjacent animal. Currently it seems so silly that so much of your time in the game is spent staring at snow melt and water boil without being able to attend to other matters.

[toebar]

The water bottle was just a guess since A) that's what the water always ends up in, and B) we never see anything else.

Would it be unfair to expect a player to find a suitable vessel before being able to melt snow and boil water? It seems to me that pots and pans are pretty frequent so I don't think it would be too harsh.. then again, finding a pan could be made as important as a can opener..

slightly off topic, but an easy way (IRL) to get some drinking water in winter if you have a plastic bottle is just to pack it full of snow and keep it inside your jacket while you are hiking-- the key thing here being that you are generating enough heat to melt it, without chilling yourself! This is another passive way to melt snow, that doesn't require that you stare at it... though I'm not seriously suggesting it as a game addition

[TLDFAN]

The water bottle was just a guess since A) that's what the water always ends up in, and B) we never see anything else.

Would it be unfair to expect a player to find a suitable vessel before being able to melt snow and boil water? It seems to me that pots and pans are pretty frequent so I don't think it would be too harsh.. then again, finding a pan could be made as important as a can opener..

slightly off topic, but an easy way (IRL) to get some drinking water in winter if you have a plastic bottle is just to pack it full of snow and keep it inside your jacket while you are hiking-- the key thing here being that you are generating enough heat to melt it, without chilling yourself! This is another passive way to melt snow, that doesn't require that you stare at it... though I'm not seriously suggesting it as a game addition

In a real survival situation you would never discard the cans or the soda cans. The soda cans can be polished to make a reflective mirror surface which can be used similar to the magnifying glass to focus sunlight and make fire. A char cloth and this can work great.

The cans themselves make for great containers to store water. Were it me, I would take a can outside once I had fresh water in it, and let the water freeze, then knock it out of the can with the handle of the hatchet... Reusable can, reusable boiling container. No need to keep a fire going then, just take that ice and bring it inside and let it melt and you have fresh water. If your house is not warm enough to melt ice then yes you'll need a fire but up to that point you can melt water in multiple containers and reuse the cans. Fresh fallen snow can be treated as freshwater. The snow on the ground-not so much.

You get about a 10:1 ratio of snow to water. So 10 gallons of snow is about 1 gal of water. Heavier wetter snow is closer to 5:1. There are 128 oz in a gallon right, so at a 10:1 ratio you need enough snow to fill 1280 oz of cans. A good sized stew can is about 24 oz, double the size of a soda can. So filling a dozen of those up with snow would give you about a quart of water when boiled down. Can you fill a dozen stew cans of snow in 5 minutes? Yes you can!

What you can't do real world is magically make snow turn into water over a fire without a container so the game just assumes you have containers. Ummm ok. But it doesn't not assume you have wood because you naturally need to harvest that. See where the realism is broken away? You should not be able to make more water than you can contain, you could stick frozen water outside and stockpile it but right now you can't even do that because everything drops in unlimited bottle form and they are either good or bad water bottles and there is no freezing, once it is liquid it is always liquid. LOL

[toebar]

good call on the cans.. after use they just sort of disappear, so I hadn't thought of it. Perhaps the game assumes you have some sort of container (e.g. discarded cans) and this is another case of removing some of the tedious tasks (e.g. filling up several cans with snow) for gameplay reasons..

To bring it back to the topic.... melting snow in cans in your house would be another passive way to melt snow.

Actually, this just made me think of a reason that we might actually have to stare at the snow as it melts. If the ratio is 10:1 snow:water, then you have to keep filling the container as the snow melts. This wouldn't apply for boiling though.

I don't really buy the requirement for boiling snow... as far as I am aware it is not needed. Maybe snow in certain places might need it, but in northern Canada I really doubt it.. Generally the biggest water borne fear here is Giardia, and that would not be in the snow.

[The_Hawk35]

There are several bugs that are adapted to living in fallen snow (not to mention contamination from animals) Thus snow captured before it hits the ground is ok snow already on the ground not ok snow.

The chance of it being bad is low when you first melt it. however it would breed nasties quickly.

[slyreaper]

1. clean melted snow is not a major risk. It should be assumed that since no one is alive except the wild life, the player would gather clean snow with no animal tracks around it. If you can find some other examples of snow melt being unfit to drink from the Canadian wilderness please post it.

2. the time it takes to boil snow on a wood stove is completly unrealistic. I have / do use wood stoves like in the game. They burn very hot and it dosent take long. please see this chart for BTU p/h reference

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm

and this one for boil water calculation.

http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html

as you can see at 33,000 BTU/h stove ( which appears to be represented in the game ) boil time is 3 min per Gal ( 5-6 ) is about right.

As for the bottle / pot dilemma. some of the stoves in game have a pot an pan right on top already. Unless your camping in the wilderness this is sufficient. But for camping it would be more realistic to have some kind of pot or even just a mess kit.

[The_Hawk35]

Here ya go. Bacteria in snow

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126466/

[Orwell 1984]

Here ya go. Bacteria in snow

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126466/

Somehow disappointed.

I wanted to see a picture of a big evil bacteria under a microscope with a really badass looking weapon in his whatever he have, who is waiting with his friends in the snow to somebody to swallow them.

[toebar]

Here ya go. Bacteria in snow

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126466/

Bacteria are found almost everywhere, on almost everything.. the fact they are in/on snow is not surprising. The mere fact that there has been bacteria found in snow from the Arctic doesn't make it unfit for drinking. Most bacteria are not dangerous to human health, at least at normal levels.

The amount of bacteria within the water from Mystery Lake would be much much higher, but even it would still most likely be fine to drink except for a decent chance of Giardia (which is not a bacteria) being present.

edit: then again, there are quite a few cabins around the lake-- and no sign of outhouses.. maybe there could be E. coli issues...

[slyreaper]

Ya its never a good idea to drink lake water straight up.

Snow is pretty safe..... unless its yellow

[elloco999]

There are also a lot of animals that do their business in the snow. I would always boil snow to be sure if I had the option.

[slyreaper]

Are you telling me you cant tell the difference between snow that has had animals by it and snow that is undisturbed ?

[The_Hawk35]

The issue is that the animals poop/pee and then the snow falls. so no you can't always see where they have been.

[toebar]

The issue is that the animals poop/pee and then the snow falls. so no you can't always see where they have been.

There is a lot of snow out there. The vast majority of it is unspoiled. Animal contamination is detectable and avoidable. Pee and poo are visible.. Digging snow and find some? move away and try again.. You wouldn't boil snow that had poo in it either! (I hope! )

Boiling is not necessary in most cases since you'd be drinking it right away IRL. BUT, if you were going to be storing it for a bit in the nice warm house (like we do in-game), then I would say boiling is good to avoid unwanted bacterial growths..

[TLDFAN]

Here ya go. Bacteria in snow

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126466/

Bacteria are found almost everywhere, on almost everything.. the fact they are in/on snow is not surprising. The mere fact that there has been bacteria found in snow from the Arctic doesn't make it unfit for drinking. Most bacteria are not dangerous to human health, at least at normal levels.

The amount of bacteria within the water from Mystery Lake would be much much higher, but even it would still most likely be fine to drink except for a decent chance of Giardia (which is not a bacteria) being present.

edit: then again, there are quite a few cabins around the lake-- and no sign of outhouses.. maybe there could be E. coli issues...

Not always the bacteria but the parasites that feed on them. Giardia for example will wreck you bad.

[toebar]

Yep, Giardia is the most common waterborne illness you risk contracting in the North if you drink untreated water from lakes or streams. BUT, it doesn't survive in snow.. only liquid water.

[Willbonney]

Just don't be like the hundreds of other idiots who think eating snow is a good idea in a survival situation. That's bad, m'kay. Reduces your core temperature so much it'll take more water from you system to restore your temperature than the small amount of water you get from melting the snow in your mouth/stomach. Very low chance for survival in those people who try to eat the snow, always try to melt it first, and if you can't melt it, don't bother. Keep moving. Lake or Stream water there's a risk as well and not just from bacteria or other pathogens, if there's any ice formed anywhere near, it's likely at freezing or just above, and you'll probably put yourself into shock or hypothermia from drinking too much cold, almost freezing water. Not worth the risk, keep moving.

[toebar]

In most cases and as a general rule you're very right--don't eat snow. It can be done safely and properly, though. Just google it (or here). The key is doing it slowly and while your body is generating excess heat.

Similar treatment with cold water--don't drink it all at once. If you're moving a lot and generating lots of heat you'll be fine. It's all about balance. Not enough water will kill you, but so will too much

Speaking for BC, if you find a stream that you can tell is not likely to have gone through a lake or other area with beavers (i.e., its coming directly from meltwater or groundwater--this often happens in the mountains), then it is typically safe to drink. Many people here drink straight from the lakes as well. I do not, as I'm wary of Giardia. But, from many mountain streams I have filled my canteen with no ill effects. And there's no better tasting water than that.

[slyreaper]

I love how i don't have to post any more because toebar always sums it up nicely !

[Willbonney]

That guy's advice is more likely to get people killed than save anyone. That guy is on ski's and has not likely been out in the cold very long. Second, his face is completely uncovered, which means it's not likely very cold out where he is, and anyone who has been out in -20 or lower temperatures know frostbite sets in rather quickly, if there is any wind at all happens in about 15 minutes. He's also in the video willing to take off his glove to hold the snow he packed in his mouth. Sure, he has a technique that he feels would work for him. But yet he even mentions he doesn't rely on eating snow, he has a water body flask under his jacket. The amount of water he actually ingested from that small handful of lightly packed snow likely amounted to maybe 15 mL of water, or about half an ounce. And during that time he exposes himself to the elements through the entirety. Using Google as you suggest, the guy "Bo" here has it right: http://www.outdoorlife.com/forums/survi ... ating-snow

Drinking stream or water from a melt is more often than not okay, just don't drink it directly, warm it up a bit first. As in, fill your canteen or any container you have, then place it under your coat next to your body for 10-15 minutes. The Armpits are best at this, they're both warm and have a good ability to regain back it's warmth loss relatively quickly.

[toebar]

fair enough. We can still both agree that eating snow is a bad idea, and that melting it is the right way to do it--the devil is in the details

In the video I posted, the guy IS melting the snow before ingesting it, he's just doing it in his mouth, slowly, an using the excess body heat of his exhaled air. He said he figured you could easily get a cup (250 mL) of water or more in an hour doing this, which is a substantial amount.

And absolutely, he full out states that this is a back up in case you have no other water. And its only when you're moving and generating heat.

Here's another link.. Not sure (but my guess is yes) if you're familiar with Les Stroud, but he's got serious survival cred.

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/2008/04/04/tv_reality_show_saved_my_life_snowmobiler_says.html

All in all, seems its a pretty debatable topic, but it's at least plausible that eating snow can work. Doesn't seem like a very exciting Mythbusters topic unfortunately